A polite plea to dawdlers.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No the entire width of the Trent is probably not navigable and certainly not at low tide. However it is pretty tolerant for your average narrowboat drawing 2.5 feet or so, apart from a few marked places. I have seen a few narrowboats in what look to be horrendous places but they didn’t go aground. The idea that there is only one line a narrowboat could take, and any slight deviation from it is a disaster, is simply ludicrous. I wonder what would happen if there was a bit of a time warp and you found yourself meeting yourself coming opposite direction. I guess there would be an almighty head-on smash as neither of you would be prepared to move over a few feet from your perceived perfect line. We can but hope.

You obviously know very little, if anything, about navigation rules on tidal rivers, do you? If I met another boat coming in the opposite direction, the one being carried by either the current or tide has priority and the upstream boat has the responsibility to keep clear. The only responsibility for the downstream boat is to avoid a collision (COLREGS) if the upstream boat happens to be a useless pillock.

[nicknorman]

37 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

You obviously know very little, if anything, about navigation rules on tidal rivers, do you? If I met another boat coming in the opposite direction, the one being carried by either the current or tide has priority and the upstream boat has the responsibility to keep clear. The only responsibility for the downstream boat is to avoid a collision (COLREGS) if the upstream boat happens to be a useless pillock.

Ah yes the good old BW bylaws 1965. Very important to adhere to them. The relevant one says

"(c) on the Aire and Calder Navigation, the Sheffield and South
Yorkshire Navigation, the Trent Navigation and the Weaver
Navigation, a vessel which is proceeding against the tide or
stream shall give way to a vessel which is proceeding with the
tide or stream."

 

Yes definitely very important to adhere to them.

But then of course there is this one:

"(2) Except as hereinafter mentioned the master of a vessel
overtaking another vessel proceeding in the same direction shall
steer his vessel in such a manner that his vessel shall pass with
her starboard side nearest to the vessel overtaken and the
master of the vessel overtaken shall steer his vessel to her
starboard side so as to permit the overtaking vessel to pass in
safety on the port side of the vessel overtaken:"

 

But then I guess you are one of those people who likes to select which bylaws to comply with, and which to ignore.

 

If ignoring the first mentioned bylaw makes one a "useless pillock" in your eyes, what does ignoring the second mentioned make one?

Edited May 29, 2023 by nicknorman

[roland elsdon]

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

You stopped for a canoe?

Cruiser that's fine but canoeists are the water equivalent of Cyclists in lycra

 

Legally present and vulnerable then

There are road and marine laws appertaining to you’re responsibility to both.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

You stopped for a canoe?

Cruiser that's fine but canoeists are the water equivalent of Cyclists in lycra

 

 

I nearly squashed one near the Woverhsmoton end of the Shroppie, where it goes through a narrow cutting.

 

There were two, bit I didn't realise. One began to overtake me on my port side just before the narrow cutting so I moved across and slowed down to give him to room to get ahead of me before the narrows. Then I head a shout. The other was overtaking on my starboard side and as I moved over to make room for his mate he had to lift his paddle to stop me hitting it.

 

It seems they have no.idea of the steerers blind spots either side and ahead of a narrowboat, nor of the consequences of an 18 ton narrowboat squashing them against the bank.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Ah yes the good old BW bylaws 1965. Very important to adhere to them. The relevant one says

"(c) on the Aire and Calder Navigation, the Sheffield and South
Yorkshire Navigation, the Trent Navigation and the Weaver
Navigation, a vessel which is proceeding against the tide or
stream shall give way to a vessel which is proceeding with the
tide or stream."

 

Yes definitely very important to adhere to them.

But then of course there is this one:

"(2) Except as hereinafter mentioned the master of a vessel
overtaking another vessel proceeding in the same direction shall
steer his vessel in such a manner that his vessel shall pass with
her starboard side nearest to the vessel overtaken and the
master of the vessel overtaken shall steer his vessel to her
starboard side so as to permit the overtaking vessel to pass in
safety on the port side of the vessel overtaken:"

 

But then I guess you are one of those people who likes to select which bylaws to comply with, and which to ignore.

 

If ignoring the first mentioned bylaw makes one a "useless pillock" in your eyes, what does ignoring the second mentioned make one?

Funnily enough it is actually important to adhere to the '....a vessel which is proceeding against the tide or stream shall give way to a vessel which is proceeding with the tide or stream...." because the vessel that is travelling with the tide or stream has a lot less steerage whilst the vessel travelling upstream can be virtually static over ground and still have steerage if it is travelling at the same speed as the current(ferry gliding). This is why any collision between the two would be blamed upon the vessel with the most responsive steerage (the upstream boat)

 

On the other hand, wherever you may have got your 'bylaw' from, I think I'll stick with COLREGS which is far more clearer (and universal) which states," .......Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.....".  (https://advanced.ecolregs.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=55:rule-13-overtaking&Itemid=505&lang=en). So according to COLREGS it is you as the overtaking vessel, that needs to keep out of my way, not me who is obliged to get out of yours (even though I probably would on a canal).

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, GUMPY said:

You stopped for a canoe?

Cruiser that's fine but canoeists are the water equivalent of Cyclists in lycra

 

This chap had one of those funny shaped ones with a single paddle and was going like stink, we had met him earlier going the other way, straight as a die and never swapping paddle sides, I would suspect somewhat good at the sport

 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Funnily enough it is actually important to adhere to the '....a vessel which is proceeding against the tide or stream shall give way to a vessel which is proceeding with the tide or stream...." because the vessel that is travelling with the tide or stream has a lot less steerage whilst the vessel travelling upstream can be virtually static over ground and still have steerage if it is travelling at the same speed as the current(ferry gliding). This is why any collision between the two would be blamed upon the vessel with the most responsive steerage (the upstream boat)

 

 

Gosh I'm amazed, I never realised that one actually has to have motion through the water to have good steerage!! I'm so glad you told us ... (NOT!)

 

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

On the other hand, wherever you may have got your 'bylaw' from, I think I'll stick with COLREGS which is far more clearer (and universal) which states," .......Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.....".  (https://advanced.ecolregs.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=55:rule-13-overtaking&Itemid=505&lang=en). So according to COLREGS it is you as the overtaking vessel, that needs to keep out of my way, not me who is obliged to get out of yours (even though I probably would on a canal).

Colregs are generic international. Bylaws supercede them as they are UK law. I realise that doesn't suit your purpose so no doubt when challenged in court you would stamp your feet and sulk. That might even work! (or maybe not!)

But let me ask you this then, if you consider Colregs supercedes the UK BW bylaws (that you don't seem to have heard of, and let's remember that ignorance of the law is no excuse) what lighting should we be using for navigating the canals at night? By the Colregs, all manner of multicoloured stuff. Or by the BW bylaws, a forward white light. Hmmm, I wonder if your boat has Colreg compliant navigation lights? I strongly doubt it. But then again, as we have seen, you like to pick those laws that suit you to obey, and those that don't suit you to ignore.

 

Anyway it transpires that you are a no-hoper so I'll leave you to block the waterways and force other people to go at your speed whilst feeling very superior about it. I just hope I don't have the misfortune to encounter you on the waterways.

Edited May 29, 2023 by nicknorman

[Wanderer Vagabond]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Gosh I'm amazed, I never realised that one actually has to have motion through the water to have good steerage!! I'm so glad you told us ... (NOT!)

 

Colregs are generic international. Bylaws supercede them as they are UK law. I realise that doesn't suit your purpose so no doubt when challenged in court you would stamp your feet and sulk. That might even work! (or maybe not!)

But let me ask you this then, if you consider Colregs supercedes the UK BW bylaws (that you don't seem to have heard of, and let's remember that ignorance of the law is no excuse) what lighting should we be using for navigating the canals at night? By the Colregs, all manner of multicoloured stuff. Or by the BW bylaws, a forward white light. Hmmm, I wonder if your boat has Colreg compliant navigation lights? I strongly doubt it. But then again, as we have seen, you like to pick those laws that suit you to obey, and those that don't suit you to ignore.

 

Anyway it transpires that you are a no-hoper so I'll leave you to block the waterways and force other people to go at your speed whilst feeling very superior about it. I just hope I don't have the misfortune to encounter you on the waterways.

Once again, as I've come to expect, making an entirely false assertion on my behalf based upon nothing that I've actually said. Since you don't seem to understand navigation rules I also hope that I don't have the misfortune to encounter you on the waterways, since it appeared to be necessary to explain to you concerning the upstream boat rationale (I tried to simplify it so that you would understand), I'd rather not come across someone who doesn't seem to know what they are doing.

[nicknorman]

23 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Once again, as I've come to expect, making an entirely false assertion on my behalf based upon nothing that I've actually said. Since you don't seem to understand navigation rules I also hope that I don't have the misfortune to encounter you on the waterways, since it appeared to be necessary to explain to you concerning the upstream boat rationale (I tried to simplify it so that you would understand), I'd rather not come across someone who doesn't seem to know what they are doing.

Haha and you have never heard of the BW bylaws! Some great expert on inland boating!

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

So according to COLREGS it is you as the overtaking vessel, that needs to keep out of my way, not me who is obliged to get out of yours

That's true . But on the R.Trent most cruisers like to to stick to the charted channel . So its is always appreciated when a  slow boat like a narrowboat moves over when it is safe to do so.

 

Narrowboat  should  stick to the channel. I recall one occasion when a narrowboat cut a corner only to run aground. The ebb turned the boat at a right angle to the bank and as we passed the propeller was above the water. I believe the next tide lifted him off.

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Haha and you have never heard of the BW bylaws! Some great expert on inland boating!

Once again making unwarranted assertions, as I've now come to expect. Let's actually look at what I've said rather than the nonsense that you keep alleging that I've said shall we? I've said that I'm not that troubled by coming up behind a boat going slower than I am provided it travels at a speed that my boat is capable of maintaining, I am also quite willing to stop to allow boat to pass me on the canal. What you have said is that you are equally content provided that they are only going 0.1mph slower than you. Since you wish to make fictiticious allegations about me I will allege that all that you want to do is blast around the system at the maximum permitted speed regardless of any damage to the infrastructure you may cause (you haven't said that? well I haven't said most of what you allege either).

 

If time on the water is so onerous to you that you have to get it over and done with as quickly as possible, as I said earlier, perhaps narrowboating isn't for you?

[Iain_S]

17 hours ago, nicknorman said:

(snip)

. I wonder what would happen if there was a bit of a time warp and you found yourself meeting yourself coming opposite direction. I guess there would be an almighty head-on smash as neither of you would be prepared to move over a few feet from your perceived perfect line. We can but hope.

Wouldn't happen.

1) Boat being overtaken has priority, and it is up to the overtaking boat to keep clear

2) Boat travelling downstream has priority. Therefore the upstream bound WV would alter course.

13 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Colregs are generic international. Bylaws supercede them as they are UK law. I realise that doesn't suit your purpose so no doubt when challenged in court you would stamp your feet and sulk. That might even work! (or maybe not!)

The quoted Byelaws and the Colregs are saying the same thing. They are not contradictory.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

5 hours ago, MartynG said:

That's true . But on the R.Trent most cruisers like to to stick to the charted channel . So its is always appreciated when a  slow boat like a narrowboat moves over when it is safe to do so.

 

Narrowboat  should  stick to the channel. I recall one occasion when a narrowboat cut a corner only to run aground. The ebb turned the boat at a right angle to the bank and as we passed the propeller was above the water. I believe the next tide lifted him off.

 

A bit of a contradiction here,"...most cruisers like to to stick to the charted channel..." and ,"....Narrowboat  should  stick to the channel....".

 

To be honest I'm talking about a specific situation which may well become more common as we get dryer summers. When travelling down on an ebbing tide with very little fresh water coming down (as it was last year, and will probably be this year) I am going to stick pretty rigidly to the navigation channel. I found out last year that you don't have to stray far off it to have an issue. I'm less concerned about grounding on a flooding tide(but would still rather not), but on an ebbing tide it rapidly becomes a problem in which you will get stuck. If, when I ran over the sand bar last year, instead of riding over it the boat had stopped on it, it is pretty certain that I would have remained there until the next tide.

 

As far as cruisers go, I'm not sure whether an 8 ton GRP cruiser is going to have a deeper draught than my 18 ton steel narrow boat (perhaps the underwater V-profile makes it deeper, I don't know) but if one wants to pass me the decision and method are entirely theirs, my concern will be to remain in the navigation channel. Realistically what has always seemed to happen whenever I've navigated the Trent is that as we are locked down all of the cruisers then disappear over the horizon. 

[Naughty Cal]

7 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

A bit of a contradiction here,"...most cruisers like to to stick to the charted channel..." and ,"....Narrowboat  should  stick to the channel....".

 

To be honest I'm talking about a specific situation which may well become more common as we get dryer summers. When travelling down on an ebbing tide with very little fresh water coming down (as it was last year, and will probably be this year) I am going to stick pretty rigidly to the navigation channel. I found out last year that you don't have to stray far off it to have an issue. I'm less concerned about grounding on a flooding tide(but would still rather not), but on an ebbing tide it rapidly becomes a problem in which you will get stuck. If, when I ran over the sand bar last year, instead of riding over it the boat had stopped on it, it is pretty certain that I would have remained there until the next tide.

 

As far as cruisers go, I'm not sure whether an 8 ton GRP cruiser is going to have a deeper draught than my 18 ton steel narrow boat (perhaps the underwater V-profile makes it deeper, I don't know) but if one wants to pass me the decision and method are entirely theirs, my concern will be to remain in the navigation channel. Realistically what has always seemed to happen whenever I've navigated the Trent is that as we are locked down all of the cruisers then disappear over the horizon. 

Only to sit and wait for you at the next lock 

 

Never really understood why they do that 

6 hours ago, MartynG said:

That's true . But on the R.Trent most cruisers like to to stick to the charted channel . So its is always appreciated when a  slow boat like a narrowboat moves over when it is safe to do so.

 

Narrowboat  should  stick to the channel. I recall one occasion when a narrowboat cut a corner only to run aground. The ebb turned the boat at a right angle to the bank and as we passed the propeller was above the water. I believe the next tide lifted him off.

 

The pontoon mooring at Dunham Bridge is a good place to sit and watch boats ignoring the channel. 

[IanD]

I dunno, maybe I've just been lucky, but over the years I've overtaken slower boats on various canals and rivers on quite a few occasions and even been overtaken myself occasionally, and seem to have miraculously avoided any of the disasters being mentioned on here, so I don't really understand why some people seem to view overtaking with such trepidation... 😉

 

It seems to me that some common sense about where and when to do it -- and the co-operation of both boats -- means it's not an unreasonable thing to do compared to having two irritated boaters, one repeatedly looking behind them and one cursing the dawdler in front...

[Midnight]

I've never had a problem overtaking or being overtaken on the Trent. Did have a cruiser skipper shake his fist as he passed by last year. Him on the flood and us on the ebb on a tricky corner but he could have waited as he was coming against the flow and anyway there was enough channel to share otherwise he would have been on the bottom. 

[Paul C]

35 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

A bit of a contradiction here,"...most cruisers like to to stick to the charted channel..." and ,"....Narrowboat  should  stick to the channel....".

 

To be honest I'm talking about a specific situation which may well become more common as we get dryer summers. When travelling down on an ebbing tide with very little fresh water coming down (as it was last year, and will probably be this year) I am going to stick pretty rigidly to the navigation channel. I found out last year that you don't have to stray far off it to have an issue. I'm less concerned about grounding on a flooding tide(but would still rather not), but on an ebbing tide it rapidly becomes a problem in which you will get stuck. If, when I ran over the sand bar last year, instead of riding over it the boat had stopped on it, it is pretty certain that I would have remained there until the next tide.

 

As far as cruisers go, I'm not sure whether an 8 ton GRP cruiser is going to have a deeper draught than my 18 ton steel narrow boat (perhaps the underwater V-profile makes it deeper, I don't know) but if one wants to pass me the decision and method are entirely theirs, my concern will be to remain in the navigation channel. Realistically what has always seemed to happen whenever I've navigated the Trent is that as we are locked down all of the cruisers then disappear over the horizon. 

 

Are you using this specific situation and extrapolating it more widely to all of your boating everywhere, when you say "my concern will be to remain in the navigation channel."?

 

I am not familiar with that stretch of the Trent but I didn't realise the navigation channel was <14' wide, or thereabouts.....once again, I will ask the simple question, if you met a boat in the opposite direction here, would you not be able to pass either?

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Iain_S said:

Wouldn't happen.

1) Boat being overtaken has priority, and it is up to the overtaking boat to keep clear

2) Boat travelling downstream has priority. Therefore the upstream bound WV would alter course.

The quoted Byelaws and the Colregs are saying the same thing. They are not contradictory.

If you review the bylaws I posted you will see that this isn’t the case. The boat being overtaken should alter course to starboard which is different from what the colregs say. I won’t bother to post them again as i think it’s up to you as an ex policeman to know the law (albeit by-laws!) and you will certainly know that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

 

 

As far as cruisers go, I'm not sure whether an 8 ton GRP cruiser is going to have a deeper draught than my 18 ton steel narrow boat (perhaps the underwater V-profile makes it deeper, I don't know) but if one wants to pass me the decision and method are entirely theirs, my concern will be to remain in the navigation channel. Realistically what has always seemed to happen whenever I've navigated the Trent is that as we are locked down all of the cruisers then disappear over the horizon. 

 The hull of an 8 ton GRP cruiser is not the deepest part of the boat.

 

It is the drive gear that is deeper (and more expensive when it hits the bottom of the river)

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

If you review the bylaws I posted you will see that this isn’t the case. The boat being overtaken should alter course to starboard which is different from what the colregs say. I won’t bother to post them again as i think it’s up to you as an ex policeman to know the law (albeit by-laws!) and you will certainly know that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Covered by Colregs 9(e)(i), I think 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Covered by Colregs 9(e)(i), I think 

 

Given that boats normally keep to the right when passing, surely it would make sense to overtake on the left -- so that just like on the roads (but on the other side) the overtaking boat (car) is in the opposing traffic "lane" if a boat (car) comes the other way? It's certainly what I've always done, and the boat being overtaken usually pulls over to the right not the left.

 

If the rules say anything different that would just be a source of confusion, so I expect they don't... 😉

Edited May 30, 2023 by IanD

[nicknorman]

6 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Covered by Colregs 9(e)(i), I think 

Well not exactly. The colregs says you must have the agreement of the boat to be passed, the bylaw says the overtaken boat must steer to the right regardless (no agreement needed). Anyway my original point with WV stands, the statement that an overtaking boat has to keep clear of the overtaken boat does not apply on BW inland waterways.

[IanD]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Well not exactly. The colregs says you must have the agreement of the boat to be passed, the bylaw says the overtaken boat must steer to the right regardless (no agreement needed). Anyway my original point with WV stands, the statement that an overtaking boat has to keep clear of the overtaken boat does not apply on BW inland waterways.

So ramming dawdlers out of the way *is* allowed then? 😉

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Given that boats normally keep to the right when passing, surely it would make sense to overtake on the left -- so that just like on the roads (but on the other side) the overtaking boat (car) is in the opposing traffic "lane" if a boat (car) comes the other way? It's certainly what I've always done, and the boat being overtaken usually pulls over to the right not the left.

 

If the rules say anything different that would just be a source of confusion, so I expect they don't... 😉

Fortunately they don’t say anything different, unless boats are being towed from the bank.

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Given that boats normally keep to the right when passing, surely it would make sense to overtake on the left

Yes  this is the normal / usual / preferred  procedure.

Although , as you  say ''normally''.  Overtaking or passing  on the wrong side is not prohibited  if communicated .