A polite plea to dawdlers.

[ditchcrawler]

55 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Going back to cars and overtaking on many of the roads I drive it's easy to pass another car coming the other way but almost impossible to overtake another car without putting both parties in danger.

I guess many only drive on A roads😂

Our A roads are like that in Sunny Suffolk

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

Going back to cars and overtaking on many of the roads I drive it's easy to pass another car coming the other way but almost impossible to overtake another car without putting both parties in danger.

I guess many only drive on A roads😂

As one also accustomed to driving on Devon roads, overtaking can be done but it is helped a lot if you know the road. If you are aware of where the straighter bits are, with no side roads/entrances/farm gates coming in, you build up a speed differential to the vehicle in front before you get to the section, and if something is coming then bail out.

 

That is where another difference with overtaking in a boat lies, it is almost impossible to build up much of a speed differential to the boat being overtaken.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Wanderer Vagabond

[GUMPY]

10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

you build up a speed differential to the vehicle in front before you get to the section,

Depends entirely how many horses you have hiding under the bonnet whether you need to do this or not.

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

20 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Depends entirely how many horses you have hiding under the bonnet whether you need to do this or not.

 

Regardless of how many horses you have, it is still a better method of overtaking since you are already going faster than the vehicle you intend to overtake before you cross onto the wrong side of the road. It is the way overtaking is taught on courses that teach such things.

[nicknorman]

31 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Regardless of how many horses you have, it is still a better method of overtaking since you are already going faster than the vehicle you intend to overtake before you cross onto the wrong side of the road. It is the way overtaking is taught on courses that teach such things.

Having 280 horses and 0-60 in 5.3 seconds in the car, or 180 horses and 0-60 in 3.2 seconds on the bike,  I tend not to do that. One problem with carrying that excess energy is the unpredictability of the car to be overtaken. They might panic and clap on the brakes as you loom large in their mirror and something appears opposite direction, just as you have decided not to overtake. Well it’s happened to me, rear end shunt very narrowly avoided so I don’t repeat the scenario.

[Tacet]

There are several reasons why a boat might be heading to Cromwell on the ebb including being delayed on the flood.  It is possible to moor below the lock on the pontoon or have the lock worked outside usual hours by arrangement.

 

The charts I use for the Trent show a single, preferred navigable line rather than a channel of defined width, so moving off the perfect line is not necessarily a big deal.

 

It seems that whether it is a narrow canal or wide river, there are a few who take delight in holding up others.

 

[noddyboater]

I've never heard so much tosh in my life.

The navigable channel of the tidal Trent is wide enough for 2 gravel barges to pass or overtake at low water,  nevermind 2 narrowboats!

[Wanderer Vagabond]

8 hours ago, noddyboater said:

I've never heard so much tosh in my life.

The navigable channel of the tidal Trent is wide enough for 2 gravel barges to pass or overtake at low water,  nevermind 2 narrowboats!

So would you care to explain as to why last year, when about 12 feet off the navigation channel travelling from Cromwell to Torksey, the boat rode over a sand bar? The fact that water levels were low (as they seem to be this year) might very well have had some impact upon it, but your generalisation isn't particularly helpful if wanting to avoid grounding.

 

I haven't much of an issue travelling upstream on a flooding tide, since you will probably be lifted off as the tide continues to rise, grounding on an ebbing tide is a whole different ball game. So in terms of 'tosh' it would seem that is what you might well be talking

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Having 280 horses and 0-60 in 5.3 seconds in the car, or 180 horses and 0-60 in 3.2 seconds on the bike,  I tend not to do that. One problem with carrying that excess energy is the unpredictability of the car to be overtaken. They might panic and clap on the brakes as you loom large in their mirror and something appears opposite direction, just as you have decided not to overtake. Well it’s happened to me, rear end shunt very narrowly avoided so I don’t repeat the scenario.

Well I suppose you'd best tell the IAM and Emergency Vehicle trainers that they've got it all wrong then.

[nicknorman]

48 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

So would you care to explain as to why last year, when about 12 feet off the navigation channel travelling from Cromwell to Torksey, the boat rode over a sand bar? The fact that water levels were low (as they seem to be this year) might very well have had some impact upon it, but your generalisation isn't particularly helpful if wanting to avoid grounding.

 

I haven't much of an issue travelling upstream on a flooding tide, since you will probably be lifted off as the tide continues to rise, grounding on an ebbing tide is a whole different ball game. So in terms of 'tosh' it would seem that is what you might well be talking

Well I suppose you'd best tell the IAM and Emergency Vehicle trainers that they've got it all wrong then.

No, what other people want to do is not my concern, although it is a shame that people get taught the dangerous things. But I’ve plenty of experience of that in aviation. Just tonight on my way home, (A939) came up behind an English plated car, ie tourist unfamiliar with the road. They were not going particularly slowly so I stayed behind at a comfortable distance for a couple of miles until we came to a downhill straight which is a known good overtaking place in anticipation of which I had moved closer. Nothing coming, snicked the DSG into 3rd and floored it, bringing the 280 horses to bear. My car leaps forward and I am in the process of moving to the right hand lane when car in front claps on the brakes hard as he has noticed my manoeuvre. Well it wasn’t particularly close but I had to swerve right a bit to avoid running into his rear. Overtake was completed in about 1/4 of the available straight with obviously no opposite direction traffic (there hadn’t been any for several miles) and absolutely no need for him to even lift off let alone jam the brakes on.

 

But it just goes to show that having a significant closing speed on the car in front is only fine if they don’t decide to brake, and braking when I move to overtake seems to be becoming more normal these days.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No, what other people want to do is not my concern, although it is a shame that people get taught the dangerous things. But I’ve plenty of experience of that in aviation. Just tonight on my way home, (A939) came up behind an English plated car, ie tourist unfamiliar with the road. They were not going particularly slowly so I stayed behind at a comfortable distance for a couple of miles until we came to a downhill straight which is a known good overtaking place in anticipation of which I had moved closer. Nothing coming, snicked the DSG into 3rd and floored it, bringing the 280 horses to bear. My car leaps forward and I am in the process of moving to the right hand lane when car in front claps on the brakes hard as he has noticed my manoeuvre. Well it wasn’t particularly close but I had to swerve right a bit to avoid running into his rear. Overtake was completed in about 1/4 of the available straight with obviously no opposite direction traffic (there hadn’t been any for several miles) and absolutely no need for him to even lift off let alone jam the brakes on.

 

But it just goes to show that having a significant closing speed on the car in front is only fine if they don’t decide to brake, and braking when I move to overtake seems to be becoming more normal these days.

So it would seem that, using your technique, you have almost had far more 'near miss' rear end shunts than I ever have, is one of us doing it wrong? Should I have had more near misses?

[noddyboater]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

So would you care to explain as to why last year, when about 12 feet off the navigation channel travelling from Cromwell to Torksey, the boat rode over a sand bar? The fact that water levels were low (as they seem to be this year) might very well have had some impact upon it, but your generalisation isn't particularly helpful if wanting to avoid grounding.

 

I haven't much of an issue travelling upstream on a flooding tide, since you will probably be lifted off as the tide continues to rise, grounding on an ebbing tide is a whole different ball game. So in terms of 'tosh' it would seem that is what you might well be talking

Well I suppose you'd best tell the IAM and Emergency Vehicle trainers that they've got it all wrong then.

I'd say that either I've been lucky or you have been very unlucky. In over 20 years of using the tidal river with a relatively deep draughted narrowboat I can honestly say it's never touched the bottom. That's not following the defined channel religiously either,  just being sensible, in fog or the dark often. 

Since the barges stopped running it's obviously not as deep as it was, but I wouldn't worry about passing another boat.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

9 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

I'd say that either I've been lucky or you have been very unlucky. In over 20 years of using the tidal river with a relatively deep draughted narrowboat I can honestly say it's never touched the bottom. That's not following the defined channel religiously either,  just being sensible, in fog or the dark often. 

Since the barges stopped running it's obviously not as deep as it was, but I wouldn't worry about passing another boat.

I would have to admit that I was surprised when the boat rode up, it took a couple of seconds to fully realise what was happening, but I put down a GPS marker of where it was and when I later checked my track at that point I was only about 12 - 15 feet off the red line on the navigation chart (towards the centre of the river), perhaps the chart needs updating.

[nicknorman]

10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

So it would seem that, using your technique, you have almost had far more 'near miss' rear end shunts than I ever have, is one of us doing it wrong? Should I have had more near misses?

Clearly you are a much, much better driver than me and let’s face it you are so very clever. It’s just a shame that your near superhuman driving abilities don’t extend to boating, where you find it so very difficult if not impossible to countenance overtaking even on a massive waterway like the Trent.

Edited May 29, 2023 by nicknorman

[Paul C]

10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

So it would seem that, using your technique, you have almost had far more 'near miss' rear end shunts than I ever have, is one of us doing it wrong? Should I have had more near misses?

 

If anything, it illustrates that an invited overtake is much easier than a unilateral approach. That's about as far as its useful to extend the car analogy though.

[sigsegv]

We're currently 'dawdlers' since for once it feels like we're not trying to get anywhere, which is a great feeling. Happy to let any boat past us, we tend to just get to the towpath and hang around with the center line to clearly telegraph our intent. But this discussion has made me realise a gap in my knowledge. Were we to not stop on the towpath to let a boat pass, and simply slow down and move over, to which side should we move over? Instinct tells me we should move over to the right of the channel, allowing the passing boat to pass to our port (as with approaching boats). Is my instinct correct?

[Mike Todd]

6 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

If anything, it illustrates that an invited overtake is much easier than a unilateral approach. That's about as far as its useful to extend the car analogy though.

For those who wish to keep the canals as they used to be,  they should note that attempting an uninvited overtake could result in serious consequences. It was considered the height of rudeness and would be dealt with accordingly. 

[cuthound]

16 hours ago, nicknorman said:

No, what other people want to do is not my concern, although it is a shame that people get taught the dangerous things. But I’ve plenty of experience of that in aviation. Just tonight on my way home, (A939) came up behind an English plated car, ie tourist unfamiliar with the road. They were not going particularly slowly so I stayed behind at a comfortable distance for a couple of miles until we came to a downhill straight which is a known good overtaking place in anticipation of which I had moved closer. Nothing coming, snicked the DSG into 3rd and floored it, bringing the 280 horses to bear. My car leaps forward and I am in the process of moving to the right hand lane when car in front claps on the brakes hard as he has noticed my manoeuvre. Well it wasn’t particularly close but I had to swerve right a bit to avoid running into his rear. Overtake was completed in about 1/4 of the available straight with obviously no opposite direction traffic (there hadn’t been any for several miles) and absolutely no need for him to even lift off let alone jam the brakes on.

 

But it just goes to show that having a significant closing speed on the car in front is only fine if they don’t decide to brake, and braking when I move to overtake seems to be becoming more normal these days.

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I nearly had an accident when I was pulling in behind someone having already overtaken some cars. I don't know if he was trying to be helpful or awkward. I I began to pull into the gap behind him (because there was a car coming the other way but some distance away) this guy hit the brakes hard, which reduced my planned braking distance considerably, and I only just managed to.avoid running in to him. Perhaps he only saw me at the last moment and thought by braking I would get past him before the other car arrived, without realising that I had planned to pull in behind him.

 

Whatever the reason, I wish people would concentrate on driving their own cars and not try to drive mine for me.

[nicknorman]

Just now, cuthound said:

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I nearly had an accident when I was pulling in behind someone having already overtaken some cars. I don't know if he was trying to be helpful or awkward. I I began to pull into the gap behind him (because there was a car coming the other way but some distance away) this guy hit the brakes hard, which reduced my planned braking distance considerably, and I only just managed to.avoid running in to him. Perhaps he only saw me at the last moment and thought by braking I would get past him before the other car arrived, without realising that I had planned to pull in behind him.

 

Whatever the reason, I wish people would concentrate on driving their own cars and not try to drive mine for me.

I think part of the trouble is that these days, overtaking other than on a dual carriageway/motorway is fairly rare. Recently I came up behind about 4 cars sitting behind a tractor doing about 20, on a long dead straight stretch of road with 60 limit. Since no-one looked interested in overtaking, I overtook the 4 plus tractor with masses of road to spare. When I looked back in my mirror it had dawned on the folk that maybe overtaking was a good idea, and they proceeded to do so. Road was about 1 mile straight so they had plenty of time.

 

So I think if you overtake, some people are so horrified by the outrageousness of it that they can only see death and carnage ahead so they close their eyes, scream and stamp on the brakes.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I nearly had an accident when I was pulling in behind someone having already overtaken some cars. I don't know if he was trying to be helpful or awkward. I I began to pull into the gap behind him (because there was a car coming the other way but some distance away) this guy hit the brakes hard, which reduced my planned braking distance considerably, and I only just managed to.avoid running in to him. Perhaps he only saw me at the last moment and thought by braking I would get past him before the other car arrived, without realising that I had planned to pull in behind him.

 

Whatever the reason, I wish people would concentrate on driving their own cars and not try to drive mine for me.

 

 

Yes I suspect the drivers of emergency vehicles with blue lights on would have a lot to say about this sort of thing. It always strikes me they'd quite like other drivers not to slam on the brakes, swerve lanes etc or whatever the instant they realise there is a blue light vehicle approaching.

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

Yes I suspect the drivers of emergency vehicles with blue lights on would have a lot to say about this sort of thing. It always strikes me they'd quite like other drivers not to slam on the brakes, swerve lanes etc or whatever the instant they realise there is a blue light vehicle approaching.

 

Yes, it is so much easier if drivers just continue as they were, or pull over when it is convenient for the emergency services to pass rather than behave erratically.

[noddyboater]

42 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

For those who wish to keep the canals as they used to be,  they should note that attempting an uninvited overtake could result in serious consequences. It was considered the height of rudeness and would be dealt with accordingly. 

As mentioned earlier I've recently done the same length of canal around 200 times in the last couple of months due to work. 

Only one uninvited overtake,  the only consequence was some most unpleasant name calling. I was most distressed let me tell you, but I quickly got over it.

[ditchcrawler]

I have been overtaken twice today on the T&M, first by a cruiser and the second a canoe, on both occasions I pulled hard to the right hand side and stopped.

[GUMPY]

18 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have been overtaken twice today on the T&M, first by a cruiser and the second a canoe, on both occasions I pulled hard to the right hand side and stopped.

You stopped for a canoe?

Cruiser that's fine but canoeists are the water equivalent of Cyclists in lycra

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Clearly you are a much, much better driver than me and let’s face it you are so very clever. It’s just a shame that your near superhuman driving abilities don’t extend to boating, where you find it so very difficult if not impossible to countenance overtaking even on a massive waterway like the Trent.

Why don't you make assertions about what I have actually said rather than repeatedly making assertions about what I haven't said. To refresh your memory (assuming you bothered to actually read it in the first place) what I said was,".....so anyone who thinks I might change course in any way whatsover to accommodate them overtaking me on the Trent is going to be seriously disappointed. If they wish to venture off the charted channel on an ebbing tide they are perfectly free to do so......". The Trent is indeed a massive waterway, but do you seriously think that you can safely navigate anywhere across the full width of it? If so Dunham Rack may well hold a few 'surprises' for you (along with a variety of other locations)

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Yes I suspect the drivers of emergency vehicles with blue lights on would have a lot to say about this sort of thing. It always strikes me they'd quite like other drivers not to slam on the brakes, swerve lanes etc or whatever the instant they realise there is a blue light vehicle approaching.

As one who has been in that situation on countless occasions all that you need to do is always expect the other driver to do the unexpected, you are rarely disappointed

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Why don't you make assertions about what I have actually said rather than repeatedly making assertions about what I haven't said. To refresh your memory (assuming you bothered to actually read it in the first place) what I said was,".....so anyone who thinks I might change course in any way whatsover to accommodate them overtaking me on the Trent is going to be seriously disappointed. If they wish to venture off the charted channel on an ebbing tide they are perfectly free to do so......". The Trent is indeed a massive waterway, but do you seriously think that you can safely navigate anywhere across the full width of it? If so Dunham Rack may well hold a few 'surprises' for you (along with a variety of other locations)

As one who has been in that situation on countless occasions all that you need to do is always expect the other driver to do the unexpected, you are rarely disappointed

No the entire width of the Trent is probably not navigable and certainly not at low tide. However it is pretty tolerant for your average narrowboat drawing 2.5 feet or so, apart from a few marked places. I have seen a few narrowboats in what look to be horrendous places but they didn’t go aground. The idea that there is only one line a narrowboat could take, and any slight deviation from it is a disaster, is simply ludicrous. I wonder what would happen if there was a bit of a time warp and you found yourself meeting yourself coming opposite direction. I guess there would be an almighty head-on smash as neither of you would be prepared to move over a few feet from your perceived perfect line. We can but hope.