Good hull and engine, bad fit out and list of repairs.

[Mike Hurley]

49 minutes ago, Bee said:

 I would be tempted to write a book - 'How to buy a narrowboat without getting your fingers burnt' sort of thing but I've been away from narrowboats too long, might be a winter project for someone though.

No need for a book, just go on you tube, loads of fantastic advice from people that bought a boat last week and know everything.😁

[Bee]

1 hour ago, Mike Hurley said:

No need for a book, just go on you tube, loads of fantastic advice from people that bought a boat last week and know everything.😁

Sad but horribly true

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And the other way to look at it is "if you are going to ignore the survey anyway, why bother having one in the first place ?"

You don't ignore the surveyor's report, you read it, query items, seek advice and the the hard bit, make a decision. The surveyor didn't say don't buy it.

[Richard10002]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This boat is listed as having a BSS until 1/3/27 (4 years hence)

As the BSS is nominally for a 4 year period it would suggest that it passed its BSS examination 1/3/23.

 

How did it pass with such serious faults ?

What other things that could affect the pass / fail have been missed or ignored.

 

Somethings not right with this boat.

It's always possible that the BSS inspector was thorough and pragmatic, whereas the surveyor has made mountains out of molehills.

 

Nobody here can possibly know.

 

 

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You don't ignore the surveyor's report, you read it, query items, seek advice and the the hard bit, make a decision. The surveyor didn't say don't buy it.

and that is exactly what the OP has done. I don't know where anyone has got the idea that the survey is being ignored.

[enigmatic]

I'm not sure the price is necessarily that outrageous for a reasonably nice boat of that size and age with what sounds like a flat battery and a gas safety issue the owner may not have known about. Think a lot of people are basing their judgement on the market 3 or 4 years ago when boats were quite a bit cheaper. And with the possible exception of the gas locker replating (depending on exactly what is suggested) most of it's not difficult or unusual fixes

 

Batteries are relatively inexpensive consumables that don't necessarily last very long. If they don't work at all you might be able to negotiate them off the price but it's not a big expense or an expense you shouldn't expect to have to budget for in future anyway, especially since it was disclosed they're from 2019..

 

The fridge and electric flush would probably work with functioning batteries. This is, of course, testable (if it isn't the flush that's the issue with the toilet, spares packs and even new toilets aren't exactly unaffordable 

 

The stove issue might be as simple as applying a cheap tub of fireproof sealant yourself or a new stove, it's whatever the surveyor says

 

Blocked drains leading to water in the bilges is a normal thing on cruiser stern boats. Maybe it already has a pump installed to remove it that's just not working because flat batteries.

 

As others have said, it's a lot better to have a few small internal things to fix than a hull that needs overplating which will cost loads and diminish the resaleability of the boat forever or a boat you don't actually like

[blackrose]

LPG being heavier than air sinks. A gas tight locker simply has to be gas tight up to the height of the top of the gas bottle - not including the overflow scuppers at the base of the locker of course!

Edited April 5, 2023 by blackrose

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

LPG being heavier than air sinks. A gas tight locker simply has to be gas tight up to the height of the top of the gas bottle. 

Not 100% true. We know that the gas locker has to be able to contain gas up to the tops of the bottles but it is never gas tight as it must have drain holes at the lowest point of 3/4" minimum diameter which discharge overboard.

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Not 100% true. We know that the gas locker has to be able to contain gas up to the tops of the bottles but it is never gas tight as it must have drain holes at the lowest point of 3/4" minimum diameter which discharge overboard.

 

If you wish to be pedantic - Your comment is also not 100% true as the drain size relates to the amount of gas stored in the locker - there is a table in the BSS standards.

 

 

Cylinder locker drains must have a minimum internal diameter of 12mm (½in) or increased pro-rata up to 19mm (¾in), or have an equivalent area.

 

Total capacity              Minimum internal diameter of drain opening or equivalent area :

1-18kg                       12mm (½in) 113mm²

19-29kg                    14mm (9 /16 in) 154mm²

30-37kg                    17mm (⅝in) 227mm²

38kg or greater        19mm (¾ in) 283mm

Edited April 5, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

I'm not sure the price is necessarily that outrageous for a reasonably nice boat of that size and age with what sounds like a flat battery and a gas safety issue the owner may not have known about. Think a lot of people are basing their judgement on the market 3 or 4 years ago when boats were quite a bit cheaper. And with the possible exception of the gas locker replating (depending on exactly what is suggested) most of it's not difficult or unusual fixes

 

Batteries are relatively inexpensive consumables that don't necessarily last very long. If they don't work at all you might be able to negotiate them off the price but it's not a big expense or an expense you shouldn't expect to have to budget for in future anyway, especially since it was disclosed they're from 2019..

 

The fridge and electric flush would probably work with functioning batteries. This is, of course, testable (if it isn't the flush that's the issue with the toilet, spares packs and even new toilets aren't exactly unaffordable 

 

The stove issue might be as simple as applying a cheap tub of fireproof sealant yourself or a new stove, it's whatever the surveyor says

 

Blocked drains leading to water in the bilges is a normal thing on cruiser stern boats. Maybe it already has a pump installed to remove it that's just not working because flat batteries.

 

As others have said, it's a lot better to have a few small internal things to fix than a hull that needs overplating which will cost loads and diminish the resaleability of the boat forever or a boat you don't actually like

 

 

Given the trivial nature of some of the faults, which could have been easily fixed by the owner but they didn't, we can probably surmise they have totally lost interest in this boat and emotionally disconnected from it and just want rid. I think an offer of say £35k along with an explanation of all the stuff wrong the surveyor found might not be dismissed totally out of hand. You might well find you can get it for £38k or £40K now the faults have all been found.

 

[blackrose]

Yeah. Wave £38k in front of their faces and see what they say.

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

It's always possible that the BSS inspector was thorough and pragmatic, whereas the surveyor has made mountains out of molehills.

 

Nobody here can possibly know.

 

Indeed, a BSS inspectors main focus in anga locker is bottles chained up, regulator in good condition, hoses in date and not perished, no vent holes to deck space, gas pipes and regulator supported etc

Unless the locker looked delaminated and dire, it probably wouldnt fail.

A surveyor is paid to find out if the steel is good or not, and can use hammers,  thickness testers and scrapers.

 

[enigmatic]

42 minutes ago, MtB said:

Given the trivial nature of some of the faults, which could have been easily fixed by the owner but they didn't, we can probably surmise they have totally lost interest in this boat and emotionally disconnected from it and just want rid. I think an offer of say £35k along with an explanation of all the stuff wrong the surveyor found might not be dismissed totally out of hand. You might well find you can get it for £38k or £40K now the faults have all been found.

 

I certainly won't be trying to sell my boat with flat batteries and water in the bilge! (and I totally understand why brokers only spend hours cleaning stuff if that's in their contract, but you'd have thought they could spend 5 mins emptying a bilge of rainwater before the boat got lifted out for survey!)

 

Wouldn't surprise me if it's one of the many boats where the owner can't do fixes like that any more, but doesn't mean they or their inheritors don't like money! Think they'd make more than £35k giving Venetian a call and asking them if they'd pop next door and buy it!

[Ianws]

Perhaps there's a compromise somewhere between the original price and £35k. There's an overpriced house on our street that's been on the market for months and the sellers don't seem prepared to budge. A lot depends on the sellers attitude and financial situation. If still interested and liking the boat it could be worth a speculative offer from the OP that includes the cost of fixing things. You don't know until you ask. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Ianws

[GUMPY]

This has started to make me think, are the flat batteries the fault if the broker who has not checked that the boat was shut down after a viewing?

Could easily happen.

Could this also be a reason many boats have duff batteries when they are sold through brokers.

Making me worry as the batreries on here are in perfect condition being only 3 months old and unused.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Loddon

[Tacet]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And the other way to look at it is "if you are going to ignore the survey anyway, why bother having one in the first place ?"

Not sure who is being "quoted", but the point of a survey in these circumstances is to identify whether the boat is pretty much as you thought it was when you made your offer.

If the boat has apparent defects that you factored into your offer, you can hardly expect to have chunks knocked off the price when a surveyor confirms the same.

On the other hand, if the survey identifies previously unidentified problems, a further discussion about price or a withdrawal from the sale is more reasonable.

[PaulJ]

45 minutes ago, Loddon said:

 

Could this also be a reason many boats have duff batteries when they are sold through brokers.

Making me worry as the batreries on here are in perfect condition being only 3 months old and unused.

No -the reason is usually because the batteries are already completely sh****d when the owners put them on brokerage 😀

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, PaulJ said:

No -the reason is usually because the batteries are already completely sh****d when the owners put them on brokerage 😀

No, I have to disagree, it IS more the brokerages faults in my years working for both private clients and brokerages(and testing batteries on site, especially before solar became involved).

You, me, Jon Pegg, Nigel Carton, et al, deliver boats, clean them up, isolate the batteries, turn the stern greaser and complete the job.

 

The broker comes on board, turns all Isolators on, including bowthruster, absolutely everything on, the whole 12v board, and turns all the lights on for the pictures/ video. Most walk off and then maybe someone notices the lights are still on and switches them off through the boat...probably leaving lots of leccy stuff still on.

This is why you should use a broker that has been a boater if possible, they will actually look after your boat where it matters.

 

[GUMPY]

20 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

No -the reason is usually because the batteries are already completely sh****d when the owners put them on brokerage 😀

 

Well someone will be happy when Loddon sells. One good thing us that the boat will txt me if the batteries drop below 72% might up that.

 

 

3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The broker comes on board, turns all Isolators on, including bowthruster, absolutely everything on, the whole 12v board, and turns all the lights on for the pictures/ video. Most walk off and then maybe someone notices the lights are still on and switches them off through the boat...probably leaving lots of leccy stuff still on.

 

Why am I not surprised

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Loddon

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

I certainly won't be trying to sell my boat with flat batteries and water in the bilge! (and I totally understand why brokers only spend hours cleaning stuff if that's in their contract, but you'd have thought they could spend 5 mins emptying a bilge of rainwater before the boat got lifted out for survey!)

 

Maybe if you left it with a broker for a month it would have water and knackered batteries.

[PaulJ]

28 minutes ago, matty40s said:

No, I have to disagree, it IS more the brokerages faults in my years working for both private clients and brokerages(and testing batteries on site, especially before solar became involved).

You, me, Jon Pegg, Nigel Carton, et al, deliver boats, clean them up, isolate the batteries, turn the stern greaser and complete the job.

 

The broker comes on board, turns all Isolators on, including bowthruster, absolutely everything on, the whole 12v board, and turns all the lights on for the pictures/ video. Most walk off and then maybe someone notices the lights are still on and switches them off through the boat...probably leaving lots of leccy stuff still on.

This is why you should use a broker that has been a boater if possible, they will actually look after your boat where it matters.

 

Im genuinely suprised you dont find that.

I dont doubt there are some ,erm, less than diligent brokers around- Ive come across some 😀 but find boats with completely knackered batteries all to common. Especially the last couple of years where theyve probably sat unused. 

But then to be fair my opinion is probably not totally balanced as I only tend to pick up boats from the better brokers 😀

 

 

42 minutes ago, Loddon said:

 

Well someone will be happy when Loddon sells. One good thing us that the boat will txt me if the batteries drop below 72% might up that.

Always nice to buy a boat and not have to treat it to new batteries straight away.

Hope you remember to cancel the txts though when the new owners take over 😀

[DandV]

Looking at the brochure with a few comments.

2019 batteries are likely anyway  to be at end of life. Even carefully tended batteries are not  durable and battery replacement is a necessary expense  of boating life.

 The survey has a verified that immediate replacement is required.

Anything requiring battery power will not work in the meantime.

 

The interior is tired. 

 

The bathroom, and galley, especially are in need of a refit. But so are many house bathrooms and kitchens after 18 years. Refitting here will take care of most of the plumbing, and perhaps 12v electrics, especially if rearrangement is being contemplated. 

But like houses, bathroom and kitchen refits are the most expensive rooms. 

 

The boat has a current and relitively recent BSS. Presumably at the time of inspection the gas locker bulkhead, (and floor) were not perforated.

A BSS examiner is not going to chip away the paint to determine remaining integrity. However a surveyor should, and apparently has done so, and exposed peforation at least  in the bulkhead, and the floor is in need of replacement.

The combination of inacesibility, relitively light gauge steel, 3or 4mm? frequent water ingress through the low level drain holes, and coating damage from oving heavyish gas cylinders means failure at about that age is unfortunately probably not that unusual. 

 

Attending to any deficiencies in the stove installation is critical. Your life is at stake here.

But again deficiencies here,, are not uncommon enough, and at least you know about them.

 

The survey has indicated that the really critical bits, engine and hull are sound. That is a hugely good start. 

 

 

I suspect many that have not bought a narrowboat within the last 5 years, and certainly those who have not purchased within the last ten years, think all current purchasers are paying too much.

 

Good luck. Do you really want to restart your search in the hope you will find something better?

 

 

 

 

[GUMPY]

8 hours ago, PaulJ said:

Im genuinely suprised you dont find that.

I dont doubt there are some ,erm, less than diligent brokers around- Ive come across some 😀 but find boats with completely knackered batteries all to common. Especially the last couple of years where theyve probably sat unused. 

But then to be fair my opinion is probably not totally balanced as I only tend to pick up boats from the better brokers 😀

 

 

Always nice to buy a boat and not have to treat it to new batteries straight away.

Hope you remember to cancel the txts though when the new owners take over 😀

I will change the number to the new owners. 😎

I already have been asked by the broker to do a handover to whoever buys it just to explain the systems to them even though there are full manuals and diagrams for the boat.

[Up-Side-Down]

On 04/04/2023 at 18:51, pete.i said:

For £50.000 I would want a much better boat than that.

Ditto