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cheshire~rose

BCN Railway Transhipment Wharves

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On 15/01/2020 at 08:57, RLWP said:

There are lots of them, Jan. For example Hockley Port:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=52.4921&lon=-1.9260&layers=168&b=1

 

Your best bet would be to find a copy of the 'Blue Book'. Tim Lewis used to have a PDF version

 

Richard

If you do not have a copy of Richard Deans BCN map it is worth getting hold of one, as it covers both existing and lost arms, it will put them in context and helps identify locations in the other 60 miles.  

 

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On 15/01/2020 at 10:45, Tim Lewis said:

And me!

Yes and you! = in fact you are probably more deserving even if Richard is more in need ;)

On 15/01/2020 at 09:47, RLWP said:

Have you got 'Too Many Boats' by Robert Wilson, Jan? It apparently has some stuff on Station Boats:

 

 https://hnbc.org.uk/shop/too-many-boats

 

Richard

I can't remember if we have that one or not, and if we do then it will be in one of the boxes marked "books" that have not yet been unpacked since we moved. It might be easier to buy a copy anyway - thanks for that

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9 hours ago, Hastings said:

We definittely have a couple of copies of Ray Shill's book "The Industrial Canal, The Railway Interchange Trade" at CanalBookShop.  This is the standard (and perhaps only) work devoted to railway interchange basins, and it's required reading if you want to know about them.  We also have "The Other Sixty Miles".  These books are of course secondhand. We may have a copy of the Blue Book, correctly known as "Birmingham Canal Navigations, A Cruising and Walking Guide", but I can't check tonight.

I can feel a shopping trip coming on.

7 hours ago, Martin@75 said:

If you do not have a copy of Richard Deans BCN map it is worth getting hold of one, as it covers both existing and lost arms, it will put them in context and helps identify locations in the other 60 miles.  

 

Any idea of where I might get one of them?

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28 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I can feel a shopping trip coming on.

Any idea of where I might get one of them?

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

28 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I can feel a shopping trip coming on.

Any idea of where I might get one of them?

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

28 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I can feel a shopping trip coming on.

Any idea of where I might get one of them?

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

28 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I can feel a shopping trip coming on.

Any idea of where I might get one of them?

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

28 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I can feel a shopping trip coming on.

Any idea of where I might get one of them?

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

Sorry about the echoes...

 

N

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1 minute ago, BEngo said:

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

Hnboc bookshop.  See my post No 3.

 

N

Yes I have been meaning to head over there but have had a busy week thanks

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7 hours ago, Martin@75 said:

If you do not have a copy of Richard Deans BCN map it is worth getting hold of one, as it covers both existing and lost arms, it will put them in context and helps identify locations in the other 60 miles.  

 

I've got at least two of the Dean maps, I have worn one out!

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37 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I can feel a shopping trip coming on.

Any idea of where I might get one of them?

You can also get Richard Dean's historic map of Birmingham canals from CanalBookShop

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On 15/01/2020 at 09:47, RLWP said:

Have you got 'Too Many Boats' by Robert Wilson, Jan? It apparently has some stuff on Station Boats:

 

 https://hnbc.org.uk/shop/too-many-boats

 

Richard

 

As an aside...

 

Can all the LMS "Railway Boats" also be called "Station Boats", or should "Station Boat" only be used for the subset of LMS Railway Boats that later got converted for long distance carrying use as a butty?  It was, after all, only these that actually got renamed with the names of railway stations.

My own preference is the latter, but I would be interested if any concrete evidence exists that these boats were ever called "Station Boats" before BW started using them as buttys on their carrying fleet.

Discuss!

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4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Didn't other railway companies also have "railway boats"?

Well, the Shropshire Union Railways and Canal company surely did.   Indeed wonkypedia suggests they made most of their profits from their boats.  They were however subsumed into the LNWR , a precursor of the LMS!

 

Were the Stourlifters Midland/LMS or GW boats?

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5 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

As an aside...

 

Can all the LMS "Railway Boats" also be called "Station Boats", or should "Station Boat" only be used for the subset of LMS Railway Boats that later got converted for long distance carrying use as a butty?  It was, after all, only these that actually got renamed with the names of railway stations.

My own preference is the latter, but I would be interested if any concrete evidence exists that these boats were ever called "Station Boats" before BW started using them as buttys on their carrying fleet.

Discuss!

I do not think any 'concrete evidence' will be found regarding the terms relating to these boats. 

 

I have always known the Yarwood built L.M.S.R. boats as 'Station Boats' regardless of whether they are open or those operated as family boats by either the L.M.S.R., 'British Waterways' or Willow Wren. I associate the term 'Railway Boat' with those operated by the G.W.R. and Thomas Bantock. I do not know where these terms have come from or whether they are correct, and I am sure others will have different interpretations or memories :captain:

 

edit = I can't help thinking that the compartmenting of boats into classes or groups is more driven by enthusiasts than their operators during working times, although there are one or two exceptions. I have little doubt that a boatman would not care what sort of day boat he was responsible for, only where it was starting from and going to. 

 

edit = Tom Foxon makes frequent references to 'Station Boats' in his book Following The Trade, and these he describes as "Yarwood built" and "none of the station boats had cabins". Tom Foxon was a working boatman at the time (1956) and was assisting with the trade that involved these boats between the midlands and Worcester.

Edited by pete harrison

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This book probably needs a reprint. It should have been done by Ian Pope (Lightmoor), but there was a thought to look at other interchanges away from the BCN, and that idea might have delayed it.

 

Tom Foxon has also produced some amendments

 

 

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7 hours ago, RLWP said:

I've got at least two of the Dean maps, I have worn one out!

 

There have been a number of versions of the map, the latest one I have is dated 2008

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5 hours ago, David Mack said:

Didn't other railway companies also have "railway boats"?

The LNER did: Photo A J Hall.

 

Preserved Joel was another.

Violet Photo A J Hall.jpg

joel%20bugsworth%201.jpg

 

Other boats were: Scotia, Flora, Mary, and Trojan. There may have been others but I have not been able to track them down.

Edited by Ray T
  • Greenie 1

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I think the LNER boat pictured was a maintenance boat.  It's not an area I know much about, but Im not sure the LNER ever owned carrying boats in the same was as the LMSR or the GWR.

I'm guessing the SR is probably ruled out due to there not being many canals on its patch, but no doubt someone will pop up to say I am wrong(!)

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There were also wide boats owned by railway companies, such as those working around Liverpool and Hull Docks, plus other shorter-lived operations, such as the West Lancashire railway's boats working between Tarleton and Liverpool, as recorded below in a Rufford Branch ledger.

1879-10-18 100.jpg

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The LYR Tarleton Branch, was as Pluto stated a interchange.

 

Interchange points existed on various railways. I believe Cockshutt sidings at Stoke was also an interchange siding

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On 15/01/2020 at 11:48, matty40s said:

Interestingly, that map calls it Gorsty Hill Tunnel.

I find variations in spellings all over the BCN -I think people wrote them down as they heard them.

 

On 17/01/2020 at 16:18, Tim Lewis said:

 

There have been a number of versions of the map, the latest one I have is dated 2008

I am on number three.... They are so detailed I sometimes scan the bit I was to explore and blow it up so I can read all the info.

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On 17/01/2020 at 14:28, pete harrison said:

 Tom Foxon makes frequent references to 'Station Boats' in his book Following The Trade, and these he describes as "Yarwood built" and "none of the station boats had cabins". Tom Foxon was a working boatman at the time (1956) and was assisting with the trade that involved these boats between the midlands and Worcester.

Just to update this thread - I have managed to locate the majority of the books that have been mentioned on the list at Audlem. Sadly the HNBC didn't have any of them. I am advised that their stocks have been quite depleted after a reduction in prices last autumn but I think it is still worth asking if there is something you need.

 

The one book that I am struggling to find anywhere which I think could be really interesting is the one Pete mentions ^^ Tom Foxton - Following The Trade.

 

Just in case anyone has a copy that they might consider parting with if we cross their palm with silver please get in touch

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The postman made a delivery today:

 

84848484_119251929630342_815339534439520

 

We appear to have lost most of the afternoon! 

 

Brilliant service from The Canal Bookshop getting the stuff to us so quickly 

 

We are still after a hard copy of The Blue Book if anyone has one they would be willing to part with and also Tom Foxon Following The Trade 

 

The Waterways Journal article is absolutely fascinating and has already given us a lead to follow up in the archives This was purchased as a back issue from The Waterways Museum Society 

Edited by cheshire~rose

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1 hour ago, cheshire~rose said:

We are still after a hard copy of The Blue Book if anyone has one they would be willing to part with and also Tom Foxon Following The Trade 

I think it was me that mentioned Tom Foxon's book Following The Trade. This is the last of a trilogy covering Mr Foxon's experiences as a professional boatman, both working for others as well as being an owner boatman. The references to a couple of LMS boats and their trade to Worcester are in passing and are probably not worth buying the book for. The book is however an interesting insight into Mr Foxon's carrying activities as well as the latter days of carrying, especially if read in conjunction with his Anderton For Order and No. 1 :captain: 

 

edit - add the word being

 

edit 2 - you are welcome to borrow my copy of Tom Foxon's Following The Trade, but I will want it back.

Edited by pete harrison

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