Alan de Enfield Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 hour ago, howardang said: Well spotted. Maybe 13 or the final part of 50 may be more appropriate if it is decided to take action against the boater? Howard Reading Byelaw 50 suggest that boaters are not allowed to operate locks at all, or, does having a licence 'grant authorisation' ? Maybe we are all guilty of contravening the Byelaws ? Interference with locks, bridges, vehicles, etc. 50. No person, unless authorised by the Board so to do, shall operate or interfere with any lock, lockgate, sluice, by-pass, dam, weir, bridge or any other work connected with affecting or forming part of any canal or with any locomotive, vehicle, vessel, crane, jigger, hoist, capstan or other machinery or working appliance upon any canal or except in case of emergency with any fire fighting or life saving apparatus or any rope, tarpaulin, chain or other equipment of the Board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzucraft Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said: If he had got it open and got his bows in how long do you think it would have taken for the levels to equalise so he could get out again and would it have lead to over topping further downstream? With the force that is against those gates, the best he could do is open a crack and just let a tiny bit of water through before the force of the water closed them again. Lets just say he did manage to open then even an inch, moving water has so much more force than people realize it would have slammed them shut. The V shape of the locks is take advantage of all pressure to push and seal the gates together. Edited September 28, 2019 by Kudzucraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Kudzucraft said: With the force that is against those gates, the best he could do is open a crack and just let a tiny bit of water through before the force of the water closed them again. Lets just say he did manage to open then even an inch, moving water has so much more force than people realize it would have slammed them shut. The V shape of the locks is take advantage of all pressure to push and seal the gates together. With the force that is against those gates, the best he could do is open a crack and just let a tiny bit of water through before the force of the water closed them again. Lets just say he did manage to open then even an inch, moving water has so much more force than people realize it would have slammed them shut. The V shape of the locks is take advantage of all pressure to push and seal the gates together. I know the practical aspect, it was more the hypothetical one, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CompairHolman Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 We should call him King Cnut. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Mike Todd said: I would not advise anyone on assuming that m'lud would see it that way - they are not known for being that informed about boating niceties, are they? I too suspect a judge might notice the flood gates are structurally identical to lock gates and rule they in fact ARE lock gates and Rule 25 (A) still applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: I very much doubt if he has 'broken the law' as Rule 25 (A) states ; Operation of locks 25. No person shall: (a) Open or close or attempt to open or close the gate of any lock except by the means provided for that purpose or before the water is level on both sides of the gate. The gates he was trying to open were not lock gates. The intent is obviously there, but, the law relates to 'LOCKS', it does not appear to refer to "flood-gates" (it would cover a flood-lock' but these are just a single pair of gates, similar to several others along the Trent). A single set of gates at a flash lock would still be lock gates. I'm not sure that flood gates are sufficiently different for 25(a) not to apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CompairHolman Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 None of the sections in the 1965 bylaws apply for the reason I stated above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Davis Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 54 minutes ago, CompairHolman said: None of the sections in the 1965 bylaws apply for the reason I stated above. Since it hasn't been tested at Court, you cannot state that as a fact. It is only your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenataomm Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 hour ago, David Mack said: A single set of gates at a flash lock would still be lock gates. I'm not sure that flood gates are sufficiently different for 25(a) not to apply. I agree, I once read (can't find it now) that lock gates lock off one section of water from an adjoining section. On canals all sections are pounds separated by gates. They may be pounds between locks miles apart, or lock pounds between gates 70 feet apart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, zenataomm said: I agree, I once read (can't find it now) that lock gates lock off one section of water from an adjoining section. On canals all sections are pounds separated by gates. They may be pounds between locks miles apart, or lock pounds between gates 70 feet apart And if I remember correctly, there’s an 18mile stretch on the Shroppie that’s still a pound, and Bratch Locks are not a staircase because there’s a pound between them, even though the pounds are just a couple of feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 Just now, Goliath said: and Bratch Locks are not a staircase because there’s a pound between them, even though the pounds are just a couple of feet. Its more than that, you just cant see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said: Its more than that, you just cant see it How you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Goliath said: How you mean? It goes to those two side pounds to the left of the canal as seen on the screen shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 Have I got this right? The guy was trying to open gates that were being held shut by water pressure from that section of river behind him, so in effect trying to go downhill? What was the difference in height between the side we can see and the other side? Not that it would make much difference. Even an inch of water over hundreds of yards equates to huge amounts of water pressure. There's no way a boat engine would pull the gates open against all that pressure even with longer ropes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said: It goes to those two side pounds to the left of the canal as seen on the screen shot 1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said: It goes to those two side pounds to the left of the canal as seen on the screen shot Ok. See what your saying. But between lock gates there’s a few feet? Ain’t there? So unlike a staircase you don’t go from one chamber straight to the next but cross a pound of a few feet between. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, blackrose said: Have I got this right? The guy was trying to open gates that were being held shut by water pressure from that section of river behind him, so in effect trying to go downhill? What was the difference in height between the side we can see and the other side? Not that it would make much difference. Even an inch of water over hundreds of yards equates to huge amounts of water pressure. There's no way a boat engine would pull the gates open against all that pressure even with longer ropes. We’ll never know. I imagine he was trying to pull against more than a couple of inches. I wish whoever filmed it had shown more of the gates than the boat, and a peak over the gates might have helped 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar Gypsy Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 8 minutes ago, blackrose said: Have I got this right? The guy was trying to open gates that were being held shut by water pressure from that section of river behind him, so in effect trying to go downhill? What was the difference in height between the side we can see and the other side? Not that it would make much difference. Even an inch of water over hundreds of yards equates to huge amounts of water pressure. There's no way a boat engine would pull the gates open against all that pressure even with longer ropes. The height difference between either side of the gates is what matters. The length of the pound does not affect the forces on the gate, although it will affect how long it takes for the levels yo equalise once the gates are open. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 8 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said: The height difference between either side of the gates is what matters. The length of the pound does not affect the forces on the gate, although it will affect how long it takes for the levels yo equalise once the gates are open. Doesn't an inch of water over 500 yards exert more pressure on the gates than an inch of water over 1 yard? Maybe not, but just seems counter intuitive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, blackrose said: Have I got this right? The guy was trying to open gates that were being held shut by water pressure from that section of river behind him, so in effect trying to go downhill? What was the difference in height between the side we can see and the other side? Not that it would make much difference. Even an inch of water over hundreds of yards equates to huge amounts of water pressure. There's no way a boat engine would pull the gates open against all that pressure even with longer ropes. The length of the pound is irrelevant. What determines the force on the gates is the submerged area of the gates and the difference in water level above and below them. MP. Edited September 28, 2019 by MoominPapa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Todd Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 31 minutes ago, blackrose said: Have I got this right? The guy was trying to open gates that were being held shut by water pressure from that section of river behind him, so in effect trying to go downhill? What was the difference in height between the side we can see and the other side? Not that it would make much difference. Even an inch of water over hundreds of yards equates to huge amounts of water pressure. There's no way a boat engine would pull the gates open against all that pressure even with longer ropes. The length of the pound not relevant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar Gypsy Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 12 minutes ago, blackrose said: Doesn't an inch of water over 500 yards exert more pressure on the gates than an inch of water over 1 yard? Maybe not, but just seems counter intuitive. As others have said, the answer to your Q is no. One way of demonstrating this, perhaps, is to imagine stop planks being put in at the next bridgehole upstream, with the water at the same level on both sides. This won't change the forces on the lock gate. If you pump out the water on the other side of the stop planks then that also doesn't change the forces on the lock gate. Therefore the forces on the lock gate are independent of the length of the pound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stegra Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said: As others have said, the answer to your Q is no. One way of demonstrating this, perhaps, is to imagine stop planks being put in at the next bridgehole upstream, with the water at the same level on both sides. This won't change the forces on the lock gate. If you pump out the water on the other side of the stop planks then that also doesn't change the forces on the lock gate. Therefore the forces on the lock gate are independent of the length of the pound. Or join two different sized open vessels together with a pipe at the bottom of each. If the greater volume of liquid in the larger vessel exerted more pressure it would move along the pipe and increase the level in the smaller vessel. That doesn't happen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 Well anyway, irrespective of the length of the pound, that boat still isn't going to open those gates with a load of water pressure holding them shut. That should be obvious to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 53 minutes ago, stegra said: Or join two different sized open vessels together with a pipe at the bottom of each. If the greater volume of liquid in the larger vessel exerted more pressure it would move along the pipe and increase the level in the smaller vessel. That doesn't happen. But it does happen if the volume of water in either vessel is higher than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 I'm actually amazed no one either untied or cut his ropes and told him to bugger off, in less polite terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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