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monkeyhanger

Goodbye Red Diesel?

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9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Interesting point the IWA make about gennies being still allowed to run on red diesel.

 

The obvious solution is everyone install hybrid systems. Waste cheap red diesel charging batteries to run an electric motor, rather than run expensive yet efficient white to drive the boat directly, and stuff the environmental damage.

 

 

Sorted. 

 

 

 

What that old adage?

Oh yes, many a true word...

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9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Interesting point the IWA make about gennies being still allowed to run on red diesel.

 

The obvious solution is everyone install hybrid systems. Waste cheap red diesel charging batteries to run an electric motor, rather than run expensive yet efficient white to drive the boat directly, and stuff the environmental damage.

 

 

Sorted. 

 

 

This is where the law plays catch-up.  The the law is no low duty diesel for propulsion, so a genny can be used for battery charging, even if the batteries are used for propulsion.  So the law will ignore it, until too many moored boats start running gennies on the towpath next to homes.  And the complaints start. At this point they can not say no duty free diesel for motive power battery charging as it will be impossible to police, so they will then state any and all I ic engines on boats must use white.  This will also fit in with the vote winning ‘green’ approach to no internal combustion engines in urban areas.  So I shouldn’t rush off and buy that hybrid just yet.

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20 hours ago, peterboat said:

Last time I bought it I had to sign a deceleration.

Promising to slow down when using it to drive the boat past moored craft?

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13 hours ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

Most of our fuel sales customers would have by choice 30-40 litres into their boat as I think most have no idea how big the tank is, how much is in it or how far they can travel. Most wouldn't be worried about spilling a bit in to the cut if it saves them a few quid. To be fair, this was a concern raised when the last sytem was introduced, and we supply plenty of fuel in cans to liveaboards over the winter already and their hasn't been in increase in pollution incidents as far as I'm aware. People soon work out having a bottle of washing up liquid to hand hides the problem anyway......

 

Some hire bases have already given up retail, and I can think of a few more who are considering stopping (us included) in his area because it's not worth the grief we get. We also sell quite a bit of diesel to local farmers and other legitimate users, and the income from that will be missed in the winter.

 

According to the BMF, retailers are likely to have to replace their tank/pipework and pump as it not possible to guarantee the removal all traces of red dye from the system. As my existing tank is underground that's totally cost prohibitive, and no way am I putting an above ground tank of white diesel in at our location because of the risk of theft and (worse) the ensuing pollution. If we are able to use our existing system (once flushed) to refuel our own boats all well and good, if not I'll put the smallest possible tank and pump in just to keep our own  fleet supplied to mitigate the cost and risk - that may well be a road tow bowser so I can go to ASDA or wherever and keep it well out of the way when not in use. If too many take the same view then refuelling of hireboats on longer trips or continuous cruisers without access to road transport is going to become difficult.

 

I am also concerned about the increased vulnerability of boats to theft once they have a much more valuable/useful fuel in them.

I hope you took the oportunity to reply to the 'consultation' with the above information. I put a much simplified version of the above in my submission - which I hope somebody has read (or at least filed for the time being). After all if we do actually leave the EU we can revert to full MGO as  the Directive would no longer be needed (ha-ha).

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I received this email the other week 

 

at PLA Inland Greening Conference and Exhibition

View this email in your browser (https://mailchi.mp/energy-solutions/waterworld-637633?e=4b4402b66e)
https://energy-solutions.co.uk/marine
https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld


**  Greening Inland Shipping Conference & Exhibition
------------------------------------------------------------

Demonstrating the WaterWorld Electric Engine opinion for Vessel Owners and Operators

The first Greening Inland Shipping exhibition and conference takes place at the Crystal on Tuesday 10th September. The event, being organised by the Port of London Authority, will provide a unique platform in London for researchers, vessel operators and technology providers to come together to explore and exchange ideas on how new technology can help to reduce or eliminate vessel emissions.

We are delighted to be exhibiting at the event demonstrating our new range of WaterWorld Electric Drive (https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld) engines which are perfect for smaller river craft looking to convert from diesel engines to a reliable, quiet, zero emission alternative.

The free conference and exhibition is part of London International Shipping Week 2019, see full details via the link below. If you would like further information on the WaterWorld range please email us (mailto:[email protected]?subject=Further%20information%20on%20WaterWorld%20Electric%20Drives) .
https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld

https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld

https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld
The WaterWorld electric drive is suitable for narrowboats, small coastal craft and inland waterway fleets that are looking to reduce both noise and emissions
http://www.pla.co.uk/Events/Greening-Inland-Shipping-Conference-Exhibition
The Greening Inland Shipping Conference and Exhibition is part of London International Shipping Week. Click here (http://www.pla.co.uk/Events/Greening-Inland-Shipping-Conference-Exhibition) to find out more about the event and to register to attend.
01634 290772
[email protected] (mailto:[email protected])

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I am working on a plan to have a separate tank into which I will put white diesel for propulsion. This tank will  feed into the main tank which will contain red diesel required for my Refleks. My separate tank is called Jerrycan.

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7 minutes ago, beardshave said:

I am working on a plan to have a separate tank into which I will put white diesel for propulsion. This tank will  feed into the main tank which will contain red diesel required for my Refleks. My separate tank is called Jerrycan.

Ah!!, But your supposed to only use Jerry cans for EberWeber's. :closedeyes:

Edited by bizzard

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3 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

This is where the law plays catch-up.  The the law is no low duty diesel for propulsion, so a genny can be used for battery charging, even if the batteries are used for propulsion.  So the law will ignore it, until too many moored boats start running gennies on the towpath next to homes.  And the complaints start. At this point they can not say no duty free diesel for motive power battery charging as it will be impossible to police, so they will then state any and all I ic engines on boats must use white.  This will also fit in with the vote winning ‘green’ approach to no internal combustion engines in urban areas.  So I shouldn’t rush off and buy that hybrid just yet.

So then everyone will put their genny on the towpath and call it an electric charging point! 

  • Haha 1

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We have thought about all kinds of ideas to get around the extra cost of white. I have come to the conclusion that the cost of any extra kit will not be cost effective, and the money saved by not buying such kit will pay for dearer diesel for many years to come. We will simply move less to outweigh the cost and use the (already paid for) petrol genny more. Had considered LPG conversion for genny but we are back to the "how long to pay for itself" argument. 

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5 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

This is where the law plays catch-up.  The the law is no low duty diesel for propulsion, so a genny can be used for battery charging, even if the batteries are used for propulsion.  So the law will ignore it, until too many moored boats start running gennies on the towpath next to homes.  And the complaints start. At this point they can not say no duty free diesel for motive power battery charging as it will be impossible to police, so they will then state any and all I ic engines on boats must use white.  This will also fit in with the vote winning ‘green’ approach to no internal combustion engines in urban areas.  So I shouldn’t rush off and buy that hybrid just yet.

 

 

So yes although I said it in jest, it looks as though the withdrawal of the right to burn red diesel for propulsion will result in massive take up of electric drive of all types for boats. Ranging from expensive and (fairly) quiet cocooned diesel gennies charging banks of expensive lithiums through to £750 diesel frame gennies screaming away on the roof notionally charging a knackered old 110ah domestic battery connected to a washing machine motor connected to the prop shaft. Both running fully legally on cheap red diesel.

 

Isn't progress wonderful.

 

 

And the worst bit is all these 'electric drive' boats fueled by red diesel qualify for 25% discount on their CRT licence, despite being more polluting than a conventional diesel powered boat. 

 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit
  • Greenie 1

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44 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

So yes although I said it in jest, it looks as though the withdrawal of the right to burn red diesel for propulsion will result in massive take up of electric drive of all types for boats. Ranging from expensive and (fairly) quiet cocooned diesel gennies charging banks of expensive lithiums through to £750 diesel frame gennies screaming away on the roof notionally charging a knackered old 110ah domestic battery connected to a washing machine motor connected to the prop shaft. Both running fully legally on cheap red diesel.

Some years ago I was chatting to the owners of a preserved trolley bus at the Black Country Museum. As they spent most of their time travelling away from overhead lines they had a generator.  But if they had fitted this in the bus it would have been treated as an internal combustion engine powered vehicle, and subject to all sorts of rules, regulations and taxes. So instead the bus was more or less permanently coupled to a trailer with the generator on it.

If the same applies to boats, we will all be getting generator butties!

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

So yes although I said it in jest, it looks as though the withdrawal of the right to burn red diesel for propulsion will result in massive take up of electric drive of all types for boats. Ranging from expensive and (fairly) quiet cocooned diesel gennies charging banks of expensive lithiums through to £750 diesel frame gennies screaming away on the roof notionally charging a knackered old 110ah domestic battery connected to a washing machine motor connected to the prop shaft. Both running fully legally on cheap red diesel.

 

Isn't progress wonderful.

 

 

And the worst bit is all these 'electric drive' boats fueled by red diesel qualify for 25% discount on their CRT licence, despite being more polluting than a conventional diesel powered boat. 

 

 

 

I don't think so Mike when my boat was inspected they were looking for a generator powering the electric motor,  he was pleased to see a big battery bank and large solar arrays,  also licensing had spoken to Tully the marine owner about it 

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8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I don't think so Mike when my boat was inspected they were looking for a generator powering the electric motor

Why ?

 

Assuming you mean the BSS inspection, surely to them it makes no difference how the motor is powered - UNLESS - they are secretly reporting back to C&RT what licence category and discounts you are allowed, or confirming that you are entitled to them ………………………… (which is not within the BSS remit)

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why ?

 

Assuming you mean the BSS inspection, surely to them it makes no difference how the motor is powered - UNLESS - they are secretly reporting back to C&RT what licence category and discounts you are allowed, or confirming that you are entitled to them ………………………… (which is not within the BSS remit)

It was a very nice chap from CRT who inspects your boat to make sure you arnt fiddling the license! It made sense to me anyway, self declaration is bound to go wrong isnt it?

  • Greenie 2

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10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It was a very nice chap from CRT who inspects your boat to make sure you arnt fiddling the license! It made sense to me anyway, self declaration is bound to go wrong isnt it?

I wonder how the Eastern European lady got her boat registered as electric then

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10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It was a very nice chap from CRT who inspects your boat to make sure you arnt fiddling the license! It made sense to me anyway, self declaration is bound to go wrong isnt it?

Fairy Snuff

 

So C&RT send out an 'examiner' for every boat claiming to be electric powered.

 

He (they) could be getting busy in the future.

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4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wonder how the Eastern European lady got her boat registered as electric then

 

She probably stuck the electrical "flash" symbol sticker to the rocker cover on her diesel engine. 😂

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Fairy Snuff

 

So C&RT send out an 'examiner' for every boat claiming to be electric powered.

 

He (they) could be getting busy in the future.

Alan I have no idea? my license was due in January so Tully was paid and it was sent off in December and it was finally issued in april I think? A very nice lady called Joyce sorted it out for me. I do understand why, and yes I think they are going to get very busy in the future.

My Aixam Mega truck is tax and MOT free you have no idea the performance required to tax it!!

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On 14/09/2019 at 13:00, jonathanA said:

Yep we should copy the frogs pay lip service and carry on as is .....

 

 

Yes I agree 

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Having been boating in France for many years I’m afraid the frogs don’t pay lip service to the white diesel issue they enforce it with big fines if found with red in propulsion tanks.

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1 minute ago, Dav and Pen said:

Having been boating in France for many years I’m afraid the frogs don’t pay lip service to the white diesel issue they enforce it with big fines if found with red in propulsion tanks.

I dont doubt it, and I suspect for aperiod in the UK teams will visit marinas and do dips, what do they have to lose? no doubt many will adopt the it wont happen attitude. The reality is though I would give boaters a year to use the red diesel then do a period of strict enforcement to sort it out

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Its not complicated there will be a transition period then they'll enforce it - anything more than a trace of red would need to be explained.

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12 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Its not complicated there will be a transition period then they'll enforce it - anything more than a trace of red would need to be explained.

Same as they do at livestock markets where they go round checking the Land Rovers (although these days it will be a jap 4X4 - have you seen the price of the new Defender?).

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