Boat Sitting too high?

[Tony Brooks]

41 minutes ago, DeepLock said:

I will let them see what they can do on Monday, I have surveyor that will come down to inspect it after the steel has been placed, will see what he thinks.

 

to be honest, I haven’t had time to digest all the comments regarding the oven power while cruising. I’ve checked the inverter and it’s a 2500W Pro Combi Pure Sine Wave connected to 3 leisure batteries - is this likely to replicate the generator? Quite frankly I’m clueless on the power side so please don’t scoff at my comments ?.

Ok, I’m thinking about it....sounds far easier than electric!

 

In so much as it will in theory give you up to 2.5kW of AC mains style power then yes but practically a big NO. A generator will produce AC for as long as you want it to providing you keep it fed and watered.

 

3 batteries that we  suppose are 110 Ah each until we are told differently provides a theoretical storage of 330Ah. The inverter at full output will draw about 250 amps so 330/250 = about  1.3 so with brand new fully charged batteries you could run your inverter for about 1.3 hours and in doing so will probably ruin the batteries by over discharging them. In reality the batteries will not support the inverter for more than about half an hour. We have not even got into  how long to recharge the bank.

 

So you can see the inverter and batteries will in no way replicate the generator.

[Richard10002]

I haven't read every post here but, given what you seem to know, what you know you dont know, and what you dont know you dont know, I would forget the electric oven idea and just get an all gas cooker.

 

I'm not sure of your reasoning for wanting an electric oven but, once you have been boating on your boat for a while, and you begin to understand the power side of things much better, you can think again about an electric oven, and realise why you havent got one   

[MtB]

54 minutes ago, DeepLock said:

I’ve checked the inverter and it’s a 2500W Pro Combi Pure Sine Wave connected to 3 leisure batteries - is this likely to replicate the generator? Quite frankly I’m clueless on the power side so please don’t scoff at my comments ?

 

Nobody is scoffing, but lots of people recognise this as a hopelessly inadequate battery bank for running an electric oven and it gets repeated because you don't seem to be taking it on board.

 

You seem to have the impression the battery bank is a little small. It isn't, it is HOPELESSLY TINY and won't last five minutes. Or rather it probably will last five minutes, but no more. 

 

Deal with it later by all means, but don't dismiss it. 

 

 

Oh and no it won't replicate a generator. You'll probably need one of those as well.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, DeepLock said:

I haven’t had time to digest all the comments regarding the oven power while cruising. I’ve checked the inverter and it’s a 2500W Pro Combi Pure Sine Wave connected to 3 leisure batteries - is this likely to replicate the generator? Quite frankly I’m clueless on the power side so please don’t scoff at my comments

Just for a comparison - I have 6 x 230Ah batteries (1300Ah battery bank)

I would not consider for even a moment having an electric oven or hob. It is not just the provision of the electricity it uses but how do you get (say) 600 Ah back in the batteries after you have cooked the Sunday Roast ?

 

A couple or three hours usage would probably need 18 hours running the engine to replace it.

It is just not practical.

 

If you install a 'proper' marine generator then you have no problems and can run your oven directly from the generator.

The big 'BUT' is, it will cost you £8000-£10,000 to buy and install a suitable generator.

 

See attached but don't forget the 'fitting kit', labour to fit, and having the boat lifted out of the water

 

https://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/1500-rpm-marine-generators

Edited July 4, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[70liveaboard]

2 hours ago, DeepLock said:

I will let them see what they can do on Monday, I have surveyor that will come down to inspect it after the steel has been placed, will see what he thinks.

 

to be honest, I haven’t had time to digest all the comments regarding the oven power while cruising. I’ve checked the inverter and it’s a 2500W Pro Combi Pure Sine Wave connected to 3 leisure batteries - is this likely to replicate the generator? Quite frankly I’m clueless on the power side so please don’t scoff at my comments ?.

Ok, I’m thinking about it....sounds far easier than electric!

Your not going to run an oven, hob etc on batteries, don't even think you'll be happy with that at all. You will spend most of your day worrying about battery levels.

 

Go gas really, for cooking, heating.

 

But just for info, regards generator:.. & they are very good.

There are 6-7kva 'on demand' framed generators available for under £2000 ex fitting.

But the fitting, provided you can locate somewhere to put it, won't be hugely expensive (depends what part of the country your in). Frame generators are complete already mounted in the frame, so the frame itself could be welded in place, or you could put in additional flexi mounts. You will need a fixed fuel supply, plus exhaust and the electric side to the boat services & batteries, will have to be done by a qualified electrician..

If you go for diesel then you only have the one tank to worry about and you have that already. The fitter will tell you what he would require, bits wise. Obviously if the generators fuel input was to be fitted above the lowest part of the diesel tank then a pump will be required etc.

But there may be space on the base plate, I can't tell with little to go on, if it can be put lower than the fuel tank, the generator could be gravity fed.

 

Framed generators come mounted within the frame, but the generator will need to be secured in place, surveyor will tell you more, plus regards any reg requirements.

 

A 'on demand' generator will give you constant power provided there is fuel, i.e. when you turn something on, the generator starts up, when you turn off the item, the generator stops.

Plus it will charge batteries and run power sockets around the boat, whilst taking care of the oven/hob, washer, dryer, etc, etc ( possibly not all on at once;) ). You would be best to go for a 'silent' running gen. They are not silent, but they are the quietest type, you'll still have some noise, but that depends on what is running. The more you run the louder the noise, but you could probably get a demo first somewhere.

 

It all sounds too complicated and indeed it is, so go gas. Gas is the easiest way, however a generator, certainly for living aboard in such a large vessel, is the better way. Just my opinion.

 

__

 

Anyway..

When the builder arrives, you only need to tell him one thing, "get that counter (some call it the uxter) in the water by an inch or two". Don't let them leave without either doing that, or arranging a day to do it and asap. If it means them taking up the floor (and indeed doing it right), so be it.. It's their problem.

The main thing is, stop worrying, I'm sure they will get you sorted out.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, 70liveaboard said:

But just for info, regards generator:.. & they are very good.

There are 6-7kva 'on demand' framed generators available for under £2000 ex fitting.

 

 

Frame generators are really, really noisy. Usually used o  building sites where noise isn't an issue.

 

To make one acceptable for use as an in-built generator you would need to house it in a "soundproof" box, and take lots of care to make sure thst the inlets for the aspiration air, fuel etc and outlets for exhaust, cables etc have suitable arrangements to prevent noise breakout, plus an exhaust with a very effective "hospital" silencing system.

 

All of the above costs, which is why built-in quiet generators are so expensive in the first place.

[matty40s]

An example is a chap who has just bought a very well kitted out gas free boat(9kva genset and large 24v battery bank) with induction hob and electric oven. The boat has been sat for 6 months awaiting sale.

He asks to go on landline. Batteries are showing 24.2v. Tries to cook Pizza, marina circuit trips off. Switches everything off, trips marina circuit back on. Plugs back into landline. 10 minutes later, tries to cook pizza, marina circuit trips again.

His inverter/ charger is a massive Trace unit with a 60a charging facility, the marina has a 16a rcd. 

With the batteries so low, the Trace is ploughing charge into the batteries.....which the marina circuit is just about coping with. As soon as the ovennos switched on, Trace tries to take oodles more power.....marina says NO.

 

Eventually, pizza is cooked in his camper van gas stove.

[Alan de Enfield]

39 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Frame generators are really, really noisy. Usually used o  building sites where noise isn't an issue.

 

To make one acceptable for use as an in-built generator you would need to house it in a "soundproof" box, and take lots of care to make sure thst the inlets for the aspiration air, fuel etc and outlets for exhaust, cables etc have suitable arrangements to prevent noise breakout, plus an exhaust with a very effective "hospital" silencing system.

 

All of the above costs, which is why built-in quiet generators are so expensive in the first place.

And just for 'reference' it was a DIY exhaust to allow a generator to be run on board that killed the two people on Windermere.

The guy who did the modification was actually a qualified gas-fitter but didn't apply his skills to ensuring that Co didn't get into the cabin where it killed his wife and daughter.

 

 

70liveaboards advice is potentially fatal - fitting an 'aftermarket' generator on the counter / baseplate and making a DIY exhaust is not advisable.

 

 

 

 

Police have confirmed that their inquiries centre on a generator which the family, from Leyland, Lancashire, may have turned on to power a heater as temperatures struggled to get above freezing.

Mr Rothwell said he was told by lake  wardens a faulty generator may have caused carbon monoxide to leak into the two-berth cabin.

‘It was an amateur job,’ he said. ‘The boat had been fitted with a generator and the exhaust has leaked. It had been a very cold day and the fan heater was connected to the generator.’

Detective Inspector Mike  Brown, of Cumbria Police, said: ‘Although it is too soon to rule  anything out, carbon monoxide poisoning is suspected. It is an absolute tragedy.

‘What we are looking at specifically is an aftermarket generator that has been fitted in the engine compartment of the boat which we believe may be the cause of this.’

Lee Wilkinson, who works at Bowness Bay Marina, said: ‘I’d seen the boat on the lake before, but it’s privately owned. I heard there was a faulty heater on board and they think that’s what caused it.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

From the Marine Accident Investigation Branch Report:

 

On Monday 1 April 2013, the emergency services attended the motor cruiser Arniston on Windermere, Cumbria, where a mother and her daughter had been found unconscious. The two females were taken by air ambulance to Lancaster Royal Infirmary where they were pronounced deceased. A postmortem concluded that the cause of death was carbon monoxide poisoning.The subsequent MAIB investigation identified that:

• The carbon monoxide poisoning had resulted from the inhalation of fumes emitted from a portable generator installed in the boat’s engine bay.

• The external exhaust system fitted to the portable generator had been modified to incorporate a silencer that had become detached from both the generator and the outlet pipe to the vessel’s side.

• The portable generator’s engine exhaust fumes filled the engine bay and spread through gaps in an internal bulkhead into the aft cabin where the mother and daughter were asleep.

• The portable generator was not intended by its manufacturer to be installed into an enclosed space, nor was it intended to be modified in any way.

• The improvised exhaust system attached to the generator was constructed from materials and using methods that were not appropriate for this application.

• The boat’s occupants were not alerted to the danger because two carbon monoxide sensors fitted to the boat at build were out of date and had been disconnected from the power supply.

 

And from the BBC:

 

A gas fitter has been given a two-year suspended jail sentence after his partner and her daughter died from carbon monoxide poisoning on a boat.

Kelly Webster and 10-year-old Lauren Thornton were overcome by fumes from the boat's generator on Windermere.

Matthew Eteson, 42, had modified the system to make it quieter but a makeshift exhaust failed, allowing lethal gases to build up.

He was found guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence last month.

Preston Crown Court heard Mr Eteson, of Hale in Cheshire, had put a generator below deck to run the heating.

Ms Webster, 36, and her daughter, from Leyland in Lancashire, were found dead in the cabin on 1 April 2013.

Mr Eteson's training as a "gas safe" installer should have made potential risks obvious, the jury was told.

Impact statements from the victims' relatives were read out in court.

Nia Webster, Kelly's mother, said she was "totally devastated" and it was "hard to believe they are never going to come back".

Kelly's father Alan Webster said in his statement the family would "never recover from their loss".

 

 

 

 

[70liveaboard]

You got to bare in mind @deeplock, there are a few here that 'only their advice will do'.

 

Plus of course they will turn out the worst case scenario to suit their own cause.. Check other threads, recently too.. It's scaremongering to suit them and their way of seeing things. Novice way, unfortunately

 

Buying/making a good sound proof box is not difficult, should one be needed. There are frame mounted generators already in sound proof boxes. Also where I said a fitter, I meant a 'fitter', someone that is qualified in diesel installations ie. engines & generators. The difference between a generator and engine are what they are attached to. A frame based generator can be easily fitted by a diesel engineer/fitter.

 

Of course some people (easily noticed) will turn out worse case scenarios, but again bare in mind they are fitted to hundreds of thousands of inland craft, plus off shore craft, yachts, motorhomes, trucks, even some caravans have them fitted.

I'm not sure where they thought I said diy exhaust, or where I said don't give it air, or indeed use an aftermarket generator..

I didn't say any of that, but read and you'll decide.

 

I said a fitter would give you that info and what bits they would need.

 

So take advice with care. Just use the right people to fit important items..

 

But regards generator, easily fitted by a good engineer, in or out of a sound proof box, this is why I said, 'get a demo', find out how loud, what can help to reduce noise etc..

 

I don't spin things, I just give genuine advice.

 

I won't find a worse case scenario to fit my view/opinion, it's your boat you decide. But again think of the hundreds of thousands of people that use fitted diesel generators in all sorts of application as mentioned above plus many more. And haven't died because of it.

 

But it's your choice. Take all advice and then decide.

 

The comment about my advice being fatal, is frankly rubbish.. But expected from that poster of course..

Edited July 4, 2019 by 70liveaboard

[Tony Brooks]

If you are building to the RCD just make sure any generator you look at is CE marked for marine use. Many open frame ones may well not be.

[Murflynn]

 

tell you what - if OP buys 3 tonnes of Lead Acid batteries he can sit them on the uxter plate and kill 2 birds with one stone.  God alone knows how he will keep them charged up though.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Murflynn

[Richard10002]

10 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

The comment about my advice being fatal, is frankly rubbish.

I may be misunderstanding, but are you suggesting the permanent fitting of a framed, but portable, generator, either on deck, or under deck?

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

The comment about my advice being fatal, is frankly rubbish.. But expected from that poster of course..

You missed out the word 'potentially' which as shown by posts from myself and posts from others shows what can POTENTIALLY happen when you put a portable generator "welded down" in an engine room / on the base plate (as you suggested)

 

Sometimes 'experience' can breed complacency.

 

 

From the MAIB report ;

 

• The portable generator’s engine exhaust fumes filled the engine bay and spread through gaps in an internal bulkhead into the aft cabin where the mother and daughter were asleep.

• The portable generator was not intended by its manufacturer to be installed into an enclosed space, nor was it intended to be modified in any way.

[howardang]

15 all.

 

Howard

[70liveaboard]

59 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I may be misunderstanding, but are you suggesting the permanent fitting of a framed, but portable, generator, either on deck, or under deck?

Not the carry type..

 

I think Ford do one already in a sound proof box. Most all generators will have to be CE marked, certainly from EU. Marine use is/was a grey area, that is why I said ask the surveyor and indeed fitter..

 

When I say frame, I mean the frame it is stood on, I suppose 'engine bed' perhaps, may be clearer. If a generator is on a frame/bed, then yes it will have mounts within the case (small rubber or similar). That should be o.k. to fit. Again ask fitter & surveyor. But a further set of mounts might make it less noisy and reduce vibration, depends where your advised for location and so on.

 

@Deeplock, plus shop around, do not, repeat, do not, go through marine industry, unless you can get a trade price. Find out the type you can use via the surveyor, which I already stated for you and then source the product. Possibly buy through your builder, he owes you one anyway. Shipping in from abroad could well be cheaper, if shipped in from an EU country it will have the CE mark. Just check with a surveyor prior to buying if the model your thinking of is o.k. for use on a boat. A set of paper specs for the generator, should be enough for a surveyor to decide.

 

I've said all this in the post. Shame people don't read.

 

To make things easier place the generator topside and make a seat or whatever to cover. That could open up other types of generator sets to use and will not need exhaust etc. Just ask around, best the surveyor, he will no doubt have tested boats with generator sets fitted.

 

Edit: I am surprised and indeed perplexed as these are the most widely used type of power generation for the leisure industry for the larger leisure vessels/craft & vehicles etc. But no one here seems to know that.. Batteries just don't do the job larger vessels need really.

 

I'll leave it to you @deeplock, just use the right people and if you want to look further into a generator set to use, ask the surveyor when you see him, if he has any thoughts on it. He may well have another idea, better still..

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by 70liveaboard

[ditchcrawler]

Now here is a boat sitting too high and its not lack of ballast   https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/man-stranded-boat-middle-river-3046698

[MtB]

4 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

There are 6-7kva 'on demand' framed generators available for under £2000 ex fitting.

 

FECK MOI, are you FOR REAL????????????

 

Do they come with 100 pairs of ear protectors for all the neighbours within one mile?

 

Jeezzz......

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

I am surprised and indeed perplexed as these are the most widely used type of power generation for the leisure industry for the larger leisure vessels/craft & vehicles etc. But no one here seems to know that..

I am surprised that you should say that.

 

I have had several "larger leisure vessels" and currently still have two (one 14 foot beam and one  Ocean Going Category A 23 foot beam) and have associated with people & many, many boats in the "larger leisure vessel" market, and I can hand on heart say I have never seen an installation such as you describe.

 

I am sure I would have heard of it (in more ways that one) if they were (as you suggest) "widely used".

 

It is really foolhardy to give advice when you are not au fait with the subject - I would rather (to quote you) 'scaremonger' based on knowledge and facts and provide examples of why it is wrong and let the OP make his own informed decision.

[Rickent]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

FECK MOI, are you FOR REAL????????????

 

Do they come with 100 pairs of ear protectors for all the neighbours within one mile?

 

Jeezzz......

 

 

 

Feck Moi ?

By jove old chap, steady on with the posh lingo.

We are only water gypsies after all. ?

[blackrose]

On 03/07/2019 at 23:24, DeepLock said:

 

We won’t be using camping stoves, plan is to have a gas hob...

 

If you're installing a gas hob the sensible thing to do is install a gas oven too. That would solve your (frankly) ridiculous electric oven power conundrum.

[70liveaboard]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I am surprised that you should say that.

 

I have had several "larger leisure vessels" and currently still have two (one 14 foot beam and one  Ocean Going Category A 23 foot beam) and have associated with people & many, many boats in the "larger leisure vessel" market, and I can hand on heart say I have never seen an installation such as you describe.

 

I am sure I would have heard of it (in more ways that one) if they were (as you suggest) "widely used".

 

It is really foolhardy to give advice when you are not au fait with the subject - I would rather (to quote you) 'scaremonger' based on knowledge and facts and provide examples of why it is wrong and let the OP make his own informed decision.

Why I even lower myself to answer you and your cronies is frankly mind boggling for me.

 

--To put this more clearly people, I aim this at the normal everyday folk that tend to post little and avoid this crowd, but would enjoy a forum free of these...

Well, I'll leave out what I really think about them.. suffice to say, just check 'march of the wide beam' thread plus many, infact most threads that these cronies hang around in (which ends up all of them, because they are all knowledgeable ?,  in their own minds that is). See what and how it simply degenerates, which seems an apt word here.--

 

Anyway, to my response god only knows why and my last time with any of these people:

amaresearch...

Diesel generation continues to be... blah blah &.. in the domestic and 'leisure' market has increased year on year since.......blah, blah

No I'll stop myself there, they're really not worth the time of day to answer too..

______

 

 

@deeplock, its up to you my friend. Check with the surveyor and builder, plus others around the area that have boats (large ones) that generate their own (off grid) power. How they do it and with what. That's the best advice I can think of.

I'll leave your thread too you and the others. I said what I have to say anyway.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Diesel generation continues to be... blah blah &.. in the domestic and 'leisure' market has increased year on year since.......blah, blah

You are absolutely correct, as power demands increase on our leisure boats we need ways of replacing the power.

 

What you, or your "source", does not make clear is that these are not 'construction type' open-framed diesel generators, welded onto the deck, in the engine hole, or welded onto the base plate.

 

I'd put money onto the fact that diesel generators on board leisure boats has increased blah... blah... blah, but also that it is 'proper' approved and safe marine generators, properly installed with the approved installation kits.

 

Much of my working life  was designing and supplying parts into the automotive industry - this involved looking at all scenarios and using a system called FMEA's (Failure mode and effect analysis) where you look at all circumstances in how the component could be used, look at the likelihood of it failing and the effect on the 'car' (boat, human etc) if it failed.

 

This has make me probably a little less of a risk taker as I tend to look to go down the safest routes, it may cost a little more but at least I know that I have done my best to minimise the dangers.

You cannot take it with you - there are no pockets in shrouds.

 

 

@DeepLock, its up to you my friend. Check with the surveyor and builder, plus others around the area that have boats (large ones) that generate their own (off grid) power. How they do it and with what. That's the best advice I can think of.

I'll leave your thread too you and the others. I said what I have to say anyway.

 

 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What you, or your "source", does not make clear is that these are not 'construction type' open-framed diesel generators, welded onto the deck, in the engine hole, or welded onto the base plate.

 

The big difference between construction industry frame gennies and proper marine gennies that 70ft seems not to grasp, is the marine versions are water cooled and quiet, whhch is why they cost £7k+. The cheapo frame gennies he quotes costing £2k are air cooled and noisy as fuk. Which he would know if he has ever seen one running. This basic error rather suggests to me he does not have the experience he claims, but that is for the OP to decide when assessing the value of his advice.  

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The big difference between construction industry frame gennies and proper marine gennies that 70ft seems not to grasp, is the marine versions are water cooled and quiet, whhch is why they cost £7k+. The cheapo frame gennies he quotes costing £2k are air cooled and noisy as fuk. Which he would know if he has ever seen one running. This basic error rather suggests to me he does not have the experience he claims, but that is for the OP to decide when assessing the value of his advice.  

And are designed to have an exhaust exiting thru the boat - not relying on a an exhaust 'extension' that they were not designed for, or approved for use by the manufacturer.