Strange Question

[Momac]

After a little search on google..............

An Air source heat pump is a  commonly available and used on industrial buildings/offices  but also possible for domestic use if you have the space and don't mind the not  very arhitectural fan unit.

The water source idea sound like it may be less well proven . I may be wrong but think the idea is not to pump the water used  as the heat source  (in this case canal water) but to submerge  pipes  in similar way to a underfloor heating system except the  fluid pumped through  the pipes is taking heat from the water and bringing it to the house.

I can't imagine a system like this being permitted in a navigable canal . 

 

[Richard10002]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The reason why electricity is 3 times the cost of gas or oil, is that to generate 1kwh of electricity you need 3kwh of gas or oil! So it is not green, it merely moves the carbon emissions elsewhere. Unless of course the leccy can be sourced from renewables (wind, solar etc) which is unlikely on a still, frosty winter’s day.

 

And anyway “renewables” aren’t renewable - wind and tide power extracts energy from the rotational energy of the planet which will eventually slow down. And solar isn’t renewable as the sun has a finite amount of hydrogen to fuse, after which it will go out. It’s just moving the “fossil fuel” usage back a level.

That the electricity has to be produced somehow, and somewhere, is what I always think. If we are looking at "global" warming, it could currently actually be more harmful to use electricity than gas or oil. In fact, like diesel, there will probably come a day when hybrid and all electric vehicles are declared the scum of the earth, even though they are flavour of the year right now.

 

On renewables: I thought the moon provided the power for the tides, and it doesnt even know how its' gravitational influences are being used. Winds have to be dissipated somehow, (usually friction), so why not a windmill, and the sun's life is measured in trillions of years, I think. I dont think the human race will last a trillion years, or even a billion years, so running out of sun is probably the least of its' worries.

 

What could happen is that the vested interests are overcome, and the NIMBYS see sense, and enough windmills, tide plants, and solar farms, are created, such that we dont need oil, gas and coal, anymore.

[Mike Todd]

6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

After a little search on google..............

An Air source heat pump is a  commonly available and used on industrial buildings/offices  but also possible for domestic use if you have the space and don't mind the not  very arhitectural fan unit.

The water source idea sound like it may be less well proven . I may be wrong but think the idea is not to pump the water used  as the heat source  (in this case canal water) but to submerge  pipes  in similar way to a underfloor heating system except the  fluid pumped through  the pipes is taking heat from the water and bringing it to the house.

I can't imagine a system like this being permitted in a navigable canal . 

 

And that may well be where CaRT have justifiable concern, not so much with a one-off but if by demonstrating this they become the target of many more proposals. The heat pump exchanges heat with the canal and therefore changes the eco system, potentially to the detriment of the fish and other inhabitants, down to the algae level. As with so many renewable initiatives (which in principle I strongly support) there is no such thing as a free lunch and what is good for you may well have problems elsewhere. The decision is then, at least in part, based on who is the loser and how strongly they can complain.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Mike Todd

[rowland al]

The best way to be ‘green’ is to reduce consumption in the first place. 

[Boater Sam]

To go green, eliminate the people.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

And that may well be where CaRT have justifiable concern, not so much with a one-off but if by demonstrating this they become the target of many more proposals.

C&RT seem to be actively pursuing 'Hydro' with schemes such as those at Holme Lock (3,000MWh per year), Newark & Cromwell lock.

 

Wonder if the OP has considered Hydro utilising the bye-wash (C&RT maybe more amenable if it is not affecting navigation)

[system 4-50]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Wonder if the OP has considered Hydro utilising the bye-wash (C&RT maybe more amenable if it is not affecting navigation)

lock by-washes are reserved for powering lock-gate openers, once I have perfected the technology.

[rowland al]

If we have to resort to electric motors for our boats in the future, and someone devises a hydro electric generator for locks, we could charge up while in locks. ?

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT seem to be actively pursuing 'Hydro' with schemes such as those at Holme Lock (3,000MWh per year), Newark & Cromwell lock.

 

Wonder if the OP has considered Hydro utilising the bye-wash (C&RT maybe more amenable if it is not affecting navigation)

As far as we know, the OP does not live next to a bywash. 

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

As far as we know, the OP does not live next to a bywash. 

Oh yes they do!

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

 

On renewables: I thought the moon provided the power for the tides, and it doesnt even know how its' gravitational influences are being used. Winds have to be dissipated somehow, (usually friction), so why not a windmill, and the sun's life is measured in trillions of years, I think. I dont think the human race will last a trillion years, or even a billion years, so running out of sun is probably the least of its' worries.

 

The moon does provide power for the tides, but only because it is orbiting the earth at a different rate than the earth is rotating. If you extract energy from that system, the tendency will be for the moon to become geostationary with the earth by a combination of change of lunar orbit and change of earth’s rotational speed.

 

Winds are dissipated but if you increase the rate of energy extraction you change the dynamic and overall increase the rate at which the earth’s rotation is slowing down. The energy has to come from somewhere!

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

As far as we know, the OP does not live next to a bywash. 

They said earlier in this thread that they do.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

The reason why electricity is 3 times the cost of gas or oil, is that to generate 1kwh of electricity you need 3kwh of gas or oil! So it is not green, it merely moves the carbon emissions elsewhere. Unless of course the leccy can be sourced from renewables (wind, solar etc) which is unlikely on a still, frosty winter’s day.

 

And anyway “renewables” aren’t renewable - wind and tide power extracts energy from the rotational energy of the planet which will eventually slow down. And solar isn’t renewable as the sun has a finite amount of hydrogen to fuse, after which it will go out. It’s just moving the “fossil fuel” usage back a level.

Hydro power

3 hours ago, MartynG said:

After a little search on google..............

An Air source heat pump is a  commonly available and used on industrial buildings/offices  but also possible for domestic use if you have the space and don't mind the not  very arhitectural fan unit.

The water source idea sound like it may be less well proven . I may be wrong but think the idea is not to pump the water used  as the heat source  (in this case canal water) but to submerge  pipes  in similar way to a underfloor heating system except the  fluid pumped through  the pipes is taking heat from the water and bringing it to the house.

I can't imagine a system like this being permitted in a navigable canal . 

 

I think BW Scotland did this on a service block a few years back

m_Case Study 13 Installing Heat Pumps British Waterways.pdf

Edited November 4, 2018 by ditchcrawler

[Momac]

32 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Hydro power

I think BW Scotland did this on a service block a few years back

m_Case Study 13 Installing Heat Pumps British Waterways.pdf

Okay perhaps it is proven technology... if it is still in operation.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 ... if it is still in operation.

 

 

Now that's a good question, I don't see them shouting about it now

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Now that's a good question, I don't see them shouting about it now

If not still  in operation  perhaps best avoided .

Not just the installation cost but the whole life  cost need to be understood with these schemes . How is it serviced , how is it removed when it reached end of life and what is that removal cost?

[EnglishRose]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT seem to be actively pursuing 'Hydro' with schemes such as those at Holme Lock (3,000MWh per year), Newark & Cromwell lock.

 

Wonder if the OP has considered Hydro utilising the bye-wash (C&RT maybe more amenable if it is not affecting navigation)

Yep we considered hydro and its a no go for many reasons. You need flow and head. Whilst we do have the flow in the bywash we don't have the head (drop). It's also a mammoth red tape area as you need an abstraction licence, planning permission and are into all sorts of issues, which even if the bywash was possible would be a nightmare and very, very costly. 

 

I've done lots of initial research into heat pumps. For us a heat pump would likely be the most cost effective option, mainly because we are completely remodelling, almost every internal wall will be knocked down so the house will be well insulated, New windows, doors, plaster, roof etc etc. We are also having underfloor heating throughout so a heat pump which works at lower temperatures is far more cost effective than oil, our only other option. Oil prices seem to be ever increasing and whilst electricity is too, it seems the better option overall due to the unpredictable nature of oil prices. 

 

Water source has two options. An open loop and closed loop system. Open loop, as you are taking out the water (see pic) you still need an abstraction licence, thus planning permission and EA involvement. 

 

For a closed loop system (see pic that shows pond/lake) you don't need an abstraction licence, no planning permission or Environment Agency involvement - I've asked and the EA have no concerns with a closed loop system. Closed- loop systems pipe a mixture of water and anti-freeze to a water source, e.g. We want to use the canal where it flows through coils or heat exchange panels in the water to exchange heat with it. The heated mixture is then piped to the heat pump and heat exchanged with refrigerant. 

 

So we just have to wait now and see what CRT say. Maybe back to the drawing board and ASHP. 

[yabasayo]

The main issues here are the volume and temperature of water passing over the heat exchanger and the fact that in winter when you need most heat, the water in the canal is at its coldest or even frozen.

[Tumshie]

10 hours ago, MHS said:

I find the concept of ground/air/water source heat pumps fascinating. We couldn’t install at our previous 18th century house as it wasn’t well insulated. Our new steel frame house has a gas central heating set up. It’s so well insulated it doesn’t make sense to rip out the boiler.

This little video is about a company who are using rivers for their water course heat pumps and heating whole towns in Norway - even when the rivers are frozen. ? If I recall correctly it was first pioneered by that Kelvin bloke who made engines for all those boats and lighthouses. ?

 

 

 

 

And this is a BBC article about that town in Norway. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31506073

 

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Tumshie
My links didn't link.

[EnglishRose]

Wow @Tumshie that's a great watch and interesting read. I'll be arming myself with some of that information to present to CRT and the links above that @ditchcrawler provided too. I've heard horror stories on air source not coping well with colder temperatures, which is putting us off using that to be honest, but I'd read quite a few research papers on water source and it seems to be far more favourable. 

[nicknorman]

The other thing with air source is a big noisy fan!

[Tumshie]

16 minutes ago, EnglishRose said:

Wow @Tumshie that's a great watch and interesting read. I'll be arming myself with some of that information to present to CRT and the links above that @ditchcrawler provided too. I've heard horror stories on air source not coping well with colder temperatures, which is putting us off using that to be honest, but I'd read quite a few research papers on water source and it seems to be far more favourable. 

I have no experience of air source heating and I know it got a lot of bad press in the past but it was used quite recently in a new eco housing estate in Orkney - Orkney is very eco pioneering and pretty cold as well. ?

 

You may also find this link interesting - Turbulent Hydro are a working company bat not wide spread so this is just for the sake of interest not as a suggestion as something you can use. 

 

 

One thing I did wasn't to mention, you talk of putting your heat pumps or other things in the canal its self but would your pump be in the running path of the boats in the canal - boats may damage pumps and pumps may scrap blacking (paint work) of boats and thats costly. 

 

Tumsh. ?

Edited November 4, 2018 by Tumshie

[MHS]

14 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

This little video is about a company who are using rivers for their water course heat pumps and heating whole towns in Norway - even when the rivers are frozen. ? If I recall correctly it was first pioneered by that Kelvin bloke who made engines for all those boats and lighthouses. ?

 

 

 

 

And this is a BBC article about that town in Norway. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31506073

 

 

Our previous house had around 300 yards of river frontage on the river Don so ideal for water source pumps. 

I would have happily replaced the old inefficient oil fired boiler with ground source heat pumps in the paddock but for the lack of insulation and ceiling height. We would have had to install underfloor heating for it to have worked. That wasn’t sensible with stone flagged floors and beautiful 3/4” mahogany parquet floors in the lounge and dining rooms. 

 

I looked at hydro, but the weir on our land had collapsed years ago so only had a head or around 4’. Now we are in a house with an epc rating of B it doesn’t seem relevant. 

[jonesthenuke]

I get the impression CRT are keen on pursuing all forms of income and may well want to charge for the "use" of their water, even if you give it all back a little cooler. I seem to recollect them charging businesses for use of the canal water for cooling., which is in principle much the same as you propose.

 

Please keep us updated with what you find out.

 

You may find that the land alongside the canal is waterlogged and could thus provide an adequate heat source without breaching the canal boundary?

[yabasayo]

Interesting point, maybe slightly academic. Does the CRT actually own the water or as I suspect just the canal bed beneath it ?