Wind!?

[JJPHG]

Now it's not an issue for me yet but I was wondering if wind (the non-organic generated kind) is or can be used as a reason for 'breaching' the 14 day or shorter term mooring conditions?

 

I appreciate it's an extremely variable thing and that the boaters skill/experience as well as the boat size etc are all going to play a big part but are there guidelines (or advice from here) on what speeds it's likely to become hazardous to navigation or others?  Gusts over 30kt, 40kt.....?

 

Ok – wind isn’t likely to persist for more than 14 days and how much onus is on the boater to avail themselves of the forecasts and plan their navigation around this so to fit within the stoppage restrictions?

 

I know ice is often cited as a reason for not moving, but again what constitutes impassable?  Is ice thick enough to inflict damage – no matter how minor (a scratch to new blacking for example) good enough?

[mrsmelly]

11 minutes ago, JJPHG said:

Now it's not an issue for me yet but I was wondering if wind (the non-organic generated kind) is or can be used as a reason for 'breaching' the 14 day or shorter term mooring conditions?

 

I appreciate it's an extremely variable thing and that the boaters skill/experience as well as the boat size etc are all going to play a big part but are there guidelines (or advice from here) on what speeds it's likely to become hazardous to navigation or others?  Gusts over 30kt, 40kt.....?

 

Ok – wind isn’t likely to persist for more than 14 days and how much onus is on the boater to avail themselves of the forecasts and plan their navigation around this so to fit within the stoppage restrictions?

 

I know ice is often cited as a reason for not moving, but again what constitutes impassable?  Is ice thick enough to inflict damage – no matter how minor (a scratch to new blacking for example) good enough?

You will not ever be expected to travel in dangerous conditions and if the ice is solid you can't move. However in near on thirty years as a live aboard I have never had the need to breach the 14 day mooring rule. It's very easy to comply with if the boater is intent on complying. ?  

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, JJPHG said:

Now it's not an issue for me yet but I was wondering if wind (the non-organic generated kind) is or can be used as a reason for 'breaching' the 14 day or shorter term mooring conditions?

 

I appreciate it's an extremely variable thing and that the boaters skill/experience as well as the boat size etc are all going to play a big part but are there guidelines (or advice from here) on what speeds it's likely to become hazardous to navigation or others?  Gusts over 30kt, 40kt.....?

 

Ok – wind isn’t likely to persist for more than 14 days and how much onus is on the boater to avail themselves of the forecasts and plan their navigation around this so to fit within the stoppage restrictions?

 

I know ice is often cited as a reason for not moving, but again what constitutes impassable?  Is ice thick enough to inflict damage – no matter how minor (a scratch to new blacking for example) good enough?

No.

 

The longer answer boils down to if you are trying to find the edge cases, you probably are not complying and are unlikely to "satisfy the board".

 

This week's strong winds have been forecast for a few days, so moving before they hit is reasonable.  Several members on here - some of whom have home moorings - have been moving today in the wind but carefully.

 

Planned stoppages are also not a reason to stay put - they tend to be advertised months ahead.  Unplanned stoppages can be a reason if you are stuck on a short pound, but not on a longer one - you can always turn back and go the other way.

 

Most ice preventing movement only lasts a couple of days (usually) in the UK.  It can be a funny one though - we set off in less than 1/8th inch broken ice earlier this year, and it was 1 1/2 inches and unbroken by the bottom of the locks!

 

The only natural condition that give a cast iron guarantee of being "reasonable in the circumstances" is red board flooding on river sections - and even then you may need to argue with the local enforcement officer.  The best argument at that point is "Will CRT accept liability in writing for forcing me to travel in flood conditions against my judgement of conditions?"

 

As a continuous cruiser, I get very cross at those who try and give me a bad reputation with CRT.  The bare minimum CRT will accept as valid movement works out at about 100 yards a day - if people don't want to move their boats, get a mooring or a caravan!

 

(I'll get off my hobby horse now - I'll need him to tow the boat )

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

You will not ever be expected to travel in dangerous conditions and if the ice is solid you can't move. However in near on thirty years as a live aboard I have never had the need to breach the 14 day mooring rule. It's very easy to comply with if the boater is intent on complying. ?  

We don't have your length of time doing it, but absolutely agree.  We have overstayed once - moored outside a boatyard with half the windows out.  We also rang CRT to tell them we were going to be overstaying - and why - at about day 10 when it was obvious we were not going to be finished in the 14 days.

 

(Well, apart from that one time when day 15 was a beer festival we didn't know about on day one and only 25 yards from the boat ...)

[JJPHG]

ok - as I haven't been navigating for over a decade (so a newbie), what wind speed would be inadvisable to navigate in in a 56'er say.  Armed with the appropriate advice I can then make appropriate plans?

Or is it more of a, give it a go - if you keep hitting the bank or things its too strong for you!

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, JJPHG said:

ok - as I haven't been navigating for over a decade (so a newbie), what wind speed would be inadvisable to navigate in in a 56'er say.  Armed with the appropriate advice I can then make appropriate plans?

It depends greatly on ability. Without wanting to sound funny I can take a 70 footer along in extreme wind where many could not navigate in a fifty footer. There is no set rule and it does depend on location, for instance high winds on a puddle such as I am on today on the Oxford canal can't get you into the same trouble as high winds on the Yorkshire Ouse as a for instance.

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

We don't have your length of time doing it, but absolutely agree.  We have overstayed once - moored outside a boatyard with half the windows out.  We also rang CRT to tell them we were going to be overstaying - and why - at about day 10 when it was obvious we were not going to be finished in the 14 days.

 

(Well, apart from that one time when day 15 was a beer festival we didn't know about on day one and only 25 yards from the boat ...)

Beer festivals are exempt from any legislation whatsoever ?

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

It depends greatly on ability. Without wanting to sound funny I can take a 70 footer along in extreme wind where many could not navigate in a fifty footer. There is no set rule and it does depend on location, for instance high winds on a puddle such as I am on today on the Oxford canal can't get you into the same trouble as high winds on the Yorkshire Ouse as a for instance.

Agree with that, but it also depends more on the tumblehome (cabin shape) than the boat length I think - a good shape shrugs off even strong gusts, a slab sided boat can be a pig to handle in lighter winds.

 

Even so, I can't remember the last time I saw a 2 week stretch where the wind did not drop at some point - if nothing else it tends to do it twice a day when switching between onshore and offshore breezes, as the furthest you can get from the coast in this country is 75 miles IIRC.

 

There are a lot of boaters that refuse to move in a brisk breeze who keep telling me I can't possibly do what I am doing as I go past them crabbing at about 20 degrees, but if you don't try how do you know.  I don't have either a pram hood or a cratch, which helps quite a bit.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

Agree with that, but it also depends more on the tumblehome (cabin shape) than the boat length I think - a good shape shrugs off even strong gusts, a slab sided boat can be a pig to handle in lighter winds.

 

Even so, I can't remember the last time I saw a 2 week stretch where the wind did not drop at some point - if nothing else it tends to do it twice a day when switching between onshore and offshore breezes, as the furthest you can get from the coast in this country is 75 miles IIRC.

 

There are a lot of boaters that refuse to move in a brisk breeze who keep telling me I can't possibly do what I am doing as I go past them crabbing at about 20 degrees, but if you don't try how do you know.  I don't have either a pram hood or a cratch, which helps quite a bit.

Now yer talking sense. Pram hoods and cratches are indeed not an aid to boat handling....or anything else for that matter  innitt ?

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Beer festivals are exempt from any legislation whatsoever ?

That was my understanding that day too

 

I felt RAF when setting of the following morning though!

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

The best argument at that point is "Will CRT accept liability in writing for forcing me to travel in flood conditions against my judgement of conditions?"

None, you are responsible at ALL times, and C&RT cannot override your judgement.

 

From C&RTs T&Cs

 

2. You are responsible for assessing whether it is safe to use the Waterway in flood or strong stream conditions. Our Waterway offices may be able to assist.

[bizzard]

A very effective way of reducing considerably beam wind pressure is to simply bash all the windows out, which will enable much of the wind to pass straight through unhindered.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

None, you are responsible at ALL times, and C&RT cannot override your judgement.

 

From C&RTs T&Cs

 

2. You are responsible for assessing whether it is safe to use the Waterway in flood or strong stream conditions. Our Waterway offices may be able to assist.

I quite agree - that's why it is the best argument to use against any over-zealous enforcement officer.

 

I also have to make clear that I have never had to do this, because I am not on the "awkward sod" blacklist that does not officially exist.

2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

A very effective way of reducing considerably beam wind pressure is to simply bash all the windows out, which will enable much of the wind to pass straight through unhindered.

Or get an old working boat and take the cloths off.  Can get chilly in the bath though!

[MtB]

23 hours ago, JJPHG said:

ok - as I haven't been navigating for over a decade (so a newbie), what wind speed would be inadvisable to navigate in in a 56'er say.  Armed with the appropriate advice I can then make appropriate plans?

Or is it more of a, give it a go - if you keep hitting the bank or things its too strong for you!

 

Frankly if you keep hitting the bank, you're going too slowly. Once you get up to about 2 or 3 knots, there is no problem steering in cross wind no matter how strong.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

On 20/09/2018 at 22:34, TheBiscuits said:

(Well, apart from that one time when day 15 was a beer festival we didn't know about on day one and only 25 yards from the boat ...)

Not even the most officious of CaRT officials would have a problem with that!

 

On 20/09/2018 at 23:02, bizzard said:

A very effective way of reducing considerably beam wind pressure is to simply bash all the windows out, which will enable much of the wind to pass straight through unhindered.

Alternatively, simply turn your Ecofan to face in to the wind, counteracting its effect. Stoke up the fire to match the wind speed. Most effective on straight Telford style canals. More effort adjusting the direction on contour ones

 

Deeper draft boats are easier to keep under control in strong wind. Mine is shallow and needs a lot of concentration. Can be done though you progress down the canal at a considerable angle to your direction of travel. Mooring up if the towpath is on the windward side can be tricky, similarly, setting off without being blown straight back in to the bank if it is to leeward . Any slow speed manoeuvres are much harder. Tall buildings can funnel and concentrate the wind from unexpected directions. Wide, straight, open canals with few locks are easiest to cope with.

 

Jen

[Sea Dog]

On 20/09/2018 at 22:30, TheBiscuits said:

(I'll get off my hobby horse now - I'll need him to tow the boat )

Neddy gets an e-carrot from me!

[reg]

On 20/09/2018 at 23:02, bizzard said:

A very effective way of reducing considerably beam wind pressure is to simply bash all the windows out, which will enable much of the wind to pass straight through unhindered.

Its about time you published a book on boating tips, might need a slight disclaimer in the foreword though. 

Edited September 27, 2018 by reg

[Stilllearning]

On 20/09/2018 at 23:35, JJPHG said:

ok - as I haven't been navigating for over a decade (so a newbie), what wind speed would be inadvisable to navigate in in a 56'er say.  Armed with the appropriate advice I can then make appropriate plans?

Or is it more of a, give it a go - if you keep hitting the bank or things its too strong for you!

Having spent hours at a time boating along at an angle into the wind, it is my opinion that there are very few situations when wind is a deciding factor. I did once pass a boat that was stuck against the towpath at Napton by a strong gale, they just couldn’t get off and away, but it was a short term problem.

Having boated in horizontal snow, rain and sleet, one just pushes on, if one has to. As has been pointed out, such weather happens, but almost never lasts more than a couple of days.

[KevMc]

On ‎20‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 22:30, TheBiscuits said:

No.

 

The longer answer boils down to if you are trying to find the edge cases, you probably are not complying and are unlikely to "satisfy the board".

 

This week's strong winds have been forecast for a few days, so moving before they hit is reasonable.  Several members on here - some of whom have home moorings - have been moving today in the wind but carefully.

 

Planned stoppages are also not a reason to stay put - they tend to be advertised months ahead.  Unplanned stoppages can be a reason if you are stuck on a short pound, but not on a longer one - you can always turn back and go the other way.

 

Most ice preventing movement only lasts a couple of days (usually) in the UK.  It can be a funny one though - we set off in less than 1/8th inch broken ice earlier this year, and it was 1 1/2 inches and unbroken by the bottom of the locks!

 

The only natural condition that give a cast iron guarantee of being "reasonable in the circumstances" is red board flooding on river sections - and even then you may need to argue with the local enforcement officer.  The best argument at that point is "Will CRT accept liability in writing for forcing me to travel in flood conditions against my judgement of conditions?"

 

As a continuous cruiser, I get very cross at those who try and give me a bad reputation with CRT.  The bare minimum CRT will accept as valid movement works out at about 100 yards a day - if people don't want to move their boats, get a mooring or a caravan!

 

(I'll get off my hobby horse now - I'll need him to tow the boat )

BUT what if as required by the T&Cs you are bona fide navigating from A to Z (not merely shuttling between F & H) and having reached L you are presented with a closure at M ... your navigation has been interrupted by circumstances beyond your control - I can't see why you should be forced to shuttle back and forwards to G just to keep moving when you are genuinely heading on from M as soon as it is open - that would surely be allowable?

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

I did once pass a boat that was stuck against the towpath at Napton by a strong gale, they just couldn’t get off and away, but it was a short term problem.

 

I've had this too, in an unrelenting leeward gale at the lock on Hungerford Common. Having swung the bridge, set the lock and untied from the lock landing, I could not get enough forward speed to get any steering to prevent the bot being blown straight across the cut and firmly onto the opposite bank. I spent most of that Monday afternoon trying to get off the far bank and into the lock.  

 

[Stilllearning]

48 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I've had this too, in an unrelenting leeward gale at the lock on Hungerford Common. Having swung the bridge, set the lock and untied from the lock landing, I could not get enough forward speed to get any steering to prevent the bot being blown straight across the cut and firmly onto the opposite bank. I spent most of that Monday afternoon trying to get off the far bank and into the lock.  

 

Exactly what was happening to the boat I saw. It was a nearly full length boat and as fast as crew poled off the bow, the wind blew it back on the bank as soon as they began to move. My boat was only 30 foot and easier to handle, and picked up speed more easily.

[rusty69]

48 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Exactly what was happening to the boat I saw. It was a nearly full length boat and as fast as crew poled off the bow, the wind blew it back on the bank as soon as they began to move. My boat was only 30 foot and easier to handle, and picked up speed more easily.

Our 70 ft narrow boat is a pig in the wind (or i don't have enough skill). Its fine to control when underway, but in gusty open conditions, pulling away can be a bit of a challenge. 

[Sea Dog]

Mother nature - work with her or have a bad day!

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, KevMc said:

BUT what if as required by the T&Cs you are bona fide navigating from A to Z (not merely shuttling between F & H) and having reached L you are presented with a closure at M ... your navigation has been interrupted by circumstances beyond your control - I can't see why you should be forced to shuttle back and forwards to G just to keep moving when you are genuinely heading on from M as soon as it is open - that would surely be allowable?

If the diversion travelled at a reasonable speed - and I don’t mean a couple of miles every two weeks, then you probably have a good case to put to CRT, otherwise i think you will fail.

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, KevMc said:

BUT what if as required by the T&Cs you are bona fide navigating from A to Z (not merely shuttling between F & H) and having reached L you are presented with a closure at M ... your navigation has been interrupted by circumstances beyond your control - I can't see why you should be forced to shuttle back and forwards to G just to keep moving when you are genuinely heading on from M as soon as it is open - that would surely be allowable?

A phone call to CRT would most likely win a bona fide navigator CRT support in such a situation, I'd suggest.  I've only "overstayed" twice, both on 48hr moorings at quiet time for an additional day, but they were perfectly accommodating when I asked in advance if I could stay an extra night and explained why.

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

I did once pass a boat that was stuck against the towpath at Napton by a strong gale, they just couldn’t get off and away, but it was a short term problem.

 

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Having swung the bridge, set the lock and untied from the lock landing, I could not get enough forward speed to get any steering to prevent the bot being blown straight across the cut and firmly onto the opposite bank. I spent most of that Monday afternoon trying to get off the far bank and into the lock.  

 

1 hour ago, Stilllearning said:

Exactly what was happening to the boat I saw. It was a nearly full length boat and as fast as crew poled off the bow, the wind blew it back on the bank as soon as they began to move. 

 

20 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Our 70 ft narrow boat is a pig in the wind (or i don't have enough skill). Its fine to control when underway, but in gusty open conditions, pulling away can be a bit of a challenge. 

 

And that is why one of the things they check is your ability to spring off using lines before issuing you a Boatmaster's licence.  Use the force!