AGM Batteries

[rusty69]

11 hours ago, cuthound said:

Ah, tubular cells

..... I like Mike Oldfield. I prefer ommadawn to tubular bells though. 

[PeterF]

2 hours ago, pearley said:

Today he sent me this link:

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/agm-batteries.php

 

Of course they are talking motorhomes. 

The main thrust of this under charging which will trash AGM batteries quickly, so if in any doubt about charging effectiveness, then you may as well trash cheap batteries.

 

I am needing to change my batteries (4 x std 110Ah) this winter after 3 1/2 years leisure use using cheap sealed leisure batteries and was looking at AGM, still can not make my mind up. I did wonder about some Numax XDT30MF as these use tubular cells but not AGM, the MF usually signifies maintenance free but they do appear to have caps. The other advantage is the use of standard leisure battery size. The desire for more cycles is because I am now retired and will use the boat more, I am pretty pleased about getting 4 seasons out of cheap batteries.

Edited August 28, 2018 by PeterF

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, PeterF said:

The main thrust of this under charging which will trash AGM batteries quickly, so if in any doubt about charging effectiveness, then you may as well trash cheap batteries.

 

I am needing to change my batteries (4 x std 110Ah) this winter after 3 1/2 years leisure use using cheap sealed leisure batteries and was looking at AGM, still can not make my mind up. I did wonder about some Numax XDT30MF as these use tubular cells but not AGM, the MF usually signifies maintenance free but they do appear to have caps. The other advantage is the use of standard leisure battery size. The desire for more cycles is because I am now retired and will use the boat more, I am pretty pleased about getting 4 seasons out of cheap batteries.

Looking at the photo I would want far more info on the tubular plate bit. At present I tend t think its   not accurate.

[cuthound]

I have 6 x 6v 220 ah Lifeline AGM's in my hobby boat (plus Lifeline12v starter and bow trustee batteries).

 

This year they will celebrate their 12th birthday, and last time I checked their capacity it was still around two thirds of original.capacity.

 

Not sure if I will replave like for like because of the prohibitive cost.

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/lifeline/gpl-4c/

 

According to the BMV, they have been taken down to 10.5 volts at least once before i got the boat.

 

Mind you it proves that you get what you pay for with batteries.

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Mind you it proves that you sometimes get what you pay for with batteries.

Fixed that for you

 

[johnmck]

Ok, we are not full time live aboard, but do spend at least six months of the year out and about, off hook up.

Our four Multicell AGM'S are now over seven years old and still going strong. Never had to touch them, which is good since maintaining wet  cells in the space we have would be a nightmare. 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

I have 6 x 6v 220 ah Lifeline AGM's in my hobby boat (plus Lifeline12v starter and bow trustee batteries).

 

Why do the Trustee's who sit in your bow take so much power?

[cuthound]

55 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Why do the Trustee's who sit in your bow take so much power?

 

Bluddy autowrong grrr ?

[Johny London]

Well, I manage to knacker my batteries in weeks without ever going below 12v - let alone 11!

It's clear to me that Lithium are just streets ahead of the others... why is everyone ignoring that fact?

Also - just because a battery costs ten times as much, doesn't mean it necessarily needs to last 10 times as long to represent good value! If you factor in cost savings on running your engine A LOT LESS to recharge, then you reach break even far sooner - anything after that is a bonus. Slow recharge means eventually you are faced with a massive bill for a new engine - plus there is all the extra diesel, oil, filters etc. Time spent servicing. Pollution from longer running, more noise etc etc.

Lithiums look great. And I see that minimalist lithiums are still going strong even after a winter in the engine bay!

[Mike Hurley]

40 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Bluddy autowrong grrr ?

Auto correct can go straight to he,ll.

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

Well, I manage to knacker my batteries in weeks without ever going below 12v - let alone 11!

It's clear to me that Lithium are just streets ahead of the others... why is everyone ignoring that fact?

Also - just because a battery costs ten times as much, doesn't mean it necessarily needs to last 10 times as long to represent good value! If you factor in cost savings on running your engine A LOT LESS to recharge, then you reach break even far sooner - anything after that is a bonus. Slow recharge means eventually you are faced with a massive bill for a new engine - plus there is all the extra diesel, oil, filters etc. Time spent servicing. Pollution from longer running, more noise etc etc.

Lithiums look great. And I see that minimalist lithiums are still going strong even after a winter in the engine bay!

I don't think people are ignoring any facts? I get two years ish out of less than four hundred quids worth of cheapos in fact four can be bought for not much over three hundred quids and everything works well. I could go lithium for about 4K and a rewire etc etc to do the same job and hope all goes well and when/if I change my boat do I right off the 4 k or do I take all the lithiums off and rewire for and buy cheapos for the boat to sell it? Is the charging equipment I at present use for my disposable flas going to work faultlessly for lithium so? I think you are over simplyfying the transition and genuine cost of going lithium.

[Johny London]

Yes, possibly I over simplify the cost of going lithium - but just as much people ignore a large part of the savings (fuel, engine etc), that was my point. But just look at that graph!

Obviously, if you are thinking of changing boats, any capital expenditure has to be carefully considered.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Johny London said:

Yes, possibly I over simplify the cost of going lithium - but just as much people ignore a large part of the savings (fuel, engine etc), that was my point. But just look at that graph!

Obviously, if you are thinking of changing boats, any capital expenditure has to be carefully considered.

I think for some people such as maybe off grid non moving people then lithium may be good if they are Defoe going to keep their boat. For plugged in boats just on occasional use away from the marina lithium are an unnecessary expense. For such as myself who moves virtually daily and keeps my batteries charged daily that way then plugs in for a few weeks in the winter then lithium would be a waste? I am on my eighth boat now in just under thirty years and life is too short to plan so I may swop boats at the drop of a hat again and that alone puts me off lithium. I watched Charlie Sterlings vid and must say the lithiums are very impressive against all the others during his sample test.

[Johny London]

I think you hit the nail on the head - when we remember to take into account peoples massively different cruising(or not!) habits, that really goes a long way to explaining everyones often contrasting views on batteries.

If you cruise several hours most days and/or 240 hook up in winter, then the old LA's will do you nicely. Personally, I like to spend time to explore at each spot, so lithiums would be ideal.

Viva la difference

 

[peterboat]

I am looking at my BM2 at the moment 23 amps coming in dishwasher on heat still showing 13.2 volts thats from 4 x 138ah LifePo4s, these are run in a 24 volt system and being mean I just connected the BM2 onto one battery. For me these batteries work for others they dont and because of that I bought mine at a knock down price? just imagine if everybody wanted them?

[Markinaboat]

Nobody's mentioned the (new'ish?) Lead Carbon batteries. They were on show at Crick.

 

Googled for some info here:

 

http://www.boatingbusiness.com/news101/inland-waterways/new-long-life-lead-carbon-batteries
AND
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/new_lead_acid_systems
 

and one example:

https://batterystore.co.uk/plh-c100-pure-lead-carbon-series-battery.html

Edited August 29, 2018 by Markinaboat
ommission

[Dr Bob]

13 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

Nobody's mentioned the (new'ish?) Lead Carbon batteries. They were on show at Crick.

 

Googled for some info here:

 

http://www.boatingbusiness.com/news101/inland-waterways/new-long-life-lead-carbon-batteries
AND
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/new_lead_acid_systems
 

The rapid voltage drop on discharge doesnt sound encouraging, but then there was no info on either link to explain what that voltage drop was. The benefits seem too good to be true.

[nicknorman]

16 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

Nobody's mentioned the (new'ish?) Lead Carbon batteries. They were on show at Crick.

 

Googled for some info here:

 

http://www.boatingbusiness.com/news101/inland-waterways/new-long-life-lead-carbon-batteries
AND
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/new_lead_acid_systems
 

and one example:

https://batterystore.co.uk/plh-c100-pure-lead-carbon-series-battery.html

Looks like they suffer from a rapid decrease in voltage as they are discharged. Unlike Lithium.

[Johny London]

Peterboat - would you consider doing a how to article or a youtube video on how to install the ones you have with whatever is needed?! At the moment I'm stuck between the no frills drop in ala Relion/minimalist and the ott megaplex that is Victron/Jono!

[Markinaboat]

57 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

The rapid voltage drop on discharge doesnt sound encouraging, but then there was no info on either link to explain what that voltage drop was. The benefits seem too good to be true.

Must admit it seems too good. I didn't get the time at Crick to discuss that they appeared to draw the crowds. 

[BruceinSanity]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I get two years ish out of less than four hundred quids worth of cheapos in fact four can be bought for not much over three hundred quids

I paid less than £300 for four sealed Albions from MC with their discount for four. That was two years past June and they are holding up well, should get at least another year out of them. So the numbers don’t even work to buy AGMs, much less LiFePo4. 

[Johny London]

You see, that is exactly where I disagree - the numbers do add up - if you take into account all the expenses of slow charging l/a. Unless of course as I already said, if you cruise every day or are on hook up.

[Guest]

We paid £850 for 4 x 140ah AGMs, our solar system supplies most of our needs during the summer months, about 50% spring and autumn then fractional in the winter. This means the engine is run for about 2-3 hrs every day midwinter, 1-2 hrs some days of the week spring and autumn, then only for cruising in the summer. We move generally every 14 days, so for our needs they make economic sense, especially as I expect to get 10 years out of them, as that's how long the previous set lasted and other posters are saying they get a similar life span from theirs. As mentioned before everyone has different requirements depending on use, travel, charging set up etc.

[Tony Brooks]

A now defunct supplier of "lead carbon" batteries  and the batteries longevity did not fill many who tried them with confidence.

[cuthound]

21 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

The rapid voltage drop on discharge doesnt sound encouraging, but then there was no info on either link to explain what that voltage drop was. The benefits seem too good to be true.

 

The critical power industry  uses dc-dc converters to take energy from the battery and use it to boost the falling voltage, thus keeping the output voltsge constant.