Electric set up advice

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

The two above threads prompt me to   interject and say "What about a Travel Power".

I looked at having a TP fitted to the 'Cat' - but they 'refused to supply' as the 28hp engine was not considered big enough.

A TP is not a universal answer.

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I looked at having a TP fitted to the 'Cat' - but they 'refused to supply' as the 28hp engine was not considered big enough.

A TP is not a universal answer.

Try A TC instead,every 'cat' should have one.

[cuthound]

If excellent sound quality is to be achieved on a boat, I think it is easier to achieve using high quality headphones rather than speakers.

As previously mentioned, too many hard surfaces which will make the treble sound splashy, plus the relatively long thin shape encourages standing waves which lead to boomy bass.

Edited September 4, 2017 by cuthound
Clarification

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

 

 

The two above threads prompt me to   interject and say "What about a Travel Power". Tim made a fleeting reference to one earlier in this thread. Advantages are:-

• No separate fuel supply (it's bolted to the engine)
• No extra holes in the boat
• Doesn't take a huge amount of space (not that's a consideration here)
• Less cost than a separate generator
• Quieter than a 3,000 rpm genset (If you want it really quiet, then have the engine set up as a fresh water / heat exchanger cooled engine)
• The output is via an 'special' inverter so the output and frequency control is more stable - needed if a good quality sound system is fitted.. While on that subject it might be sensible to calculate exactly how much sound power is needed. The boat is smaller than most land based rooms and the walls are more reflective (fewer 'decorations') If you have gigawatts of power for your enjoyment, it won't be popular with your neighbours in a marina or on the cut - sound travels well on the water. I found a 50w (RMS) system quite adequate 
• If a TP it's worth considering running the high powered appliances with the engine running - which means  you could have a smaller inverter - but that might be a step too far.

Not many boats are heat exchanger cooled but mine is - based on several years of hiring from Teddesley Boat Co whose fleet was so cooled and beautifully quiet. However you do need a proper 'mud box' and NOT a feeble 1" pipe fitted into the swim.

 

I don't disagree with much of that but I do wonder how reliable one would be if its to be used every day for several hours a day. We hear about brush wear and such like.

The Travelpowr has been talked about several times in this thread so the OP knows its a possible option but may not know what it is. As its a new boat they should be able to specify one ready fitted to the engine.

I do not see how a Travelpower will transmit less vibrations than a generator through the structure and also air-bound sound unless extra money is spent on sound proofing, soft engine mounts and an Aquadrive. It is probably a cheaper option thought.

I very much disagree with any advice to fit heat exchanger cooling to a canal boat, especially if the users are likely to be less experienced, proper mud box or not. The hire fleet taught me that.  I think tank cooling is the most reliable cooling system available as long as the builder fits a large enough tank. Personally I think a hospital silencers will be as good as a wet exhaust sound wise as long as the exhaust exits directly astern but if anyone really wanted a wet exhaust I would advise tank cooling plus a raw water circuit just for the exhaust so the worst they can do is wreck the exhaust hose and/or silencer. By the way I have known of several wet exhaust boats that came close to sinking because a raw water failure had burned a hole in the system and the boater did not check when they cleared the blockage.

My view only.

 

 

 

 

[OldGoat]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't disagree with much of that but I do wonder how reliable one would be if its to be used every day for several hours a day. We hear about brush wear and such like.

The Travelpowr has been talked about several times in this thread so the OP knows its a possible option but may not know what it is. As its a new boat they should be able to specify one ready fitted to the engine.

I do not see how a Travelpower will transmit less vibrations than a generator through the structure and also air-bound sound unless extra money is spent on sound proofing, soft engine mounts and an Aquadrive. It is probably a cheaper option thought.

I very much disagree with any advice to fit heat exchanger cooling to a canal boat, especially if the users are likely to be less experienced, proper mud box or not. The hire fleet taught me that.  I think tank cooling is the most reliable cooling system available as long as the builder fits a large enough tank. Personally I think a hospital silencers will be as good as a wet exhaust sound wise as long as the exhaust exits directly astern but if anyone really wanted a wet exhaust I would advise tank cooling plus a raw water circuit just for the exhaust so the worst they can do is wreck the exhaust hose and/or silencer. By the way I have known of several wet exhaust boats that came close to sinking because a raw water failure had burned a hole in the system and the boater did not check when they cleared the blockage.

My view only.

 

 

 

 

Not taking issue with you in any way, but my thinking was that the TP would be used - While cruising, while charging the batteries  and running the high power devices

Of itself it's not soundless, just that the engine would be running at around 1500 rpm - whereas for economic reasons a less expensive genset would be running at 3000+ rpm. I took an Aquadrive as a sine qua non  - doesn't everybody fit them???

A good hospital silencer is very quiet - so I'll give way on that point. In a NB they take a lot of usable space, but this is a widebeam, so not as relavent. I do find the engine is quieter in mine because of the extra water in the system and very flexible rubber tube instead od stiff metal pipe.

A lot of sideways thought is needed as the requirements are very onerous and rather than dismiss them as being unreasonable, it's more of a challenge trying to get a practical solution especially as cost has now been introduced as a factor.

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Not taking issue with you in any way, but my thinking was that the TP would be used - While cruising, while charging the batteries  and running the high power devices

 

I agree with that and have almost said as much except I was talking abut the 175 A alternator providing power for the bread maker. However I suspect the sound studio would not be in use while the boat was moving. As you say the challenge is getting a practical solution and the OP has, to my mind, not been very co-operative in that. Maybe due to a lack of knowledge, I simply do not know. We need far more info so we can double check the power audit and I suspect its prove to be far harder to provide than the OP imagined. I suspect that if a watt meter was used at home the actual power required would drop rather a lot.

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

If excellent sound quality is to be achieved on a boat, I think it is easier to achieve using high quality headphones rather than speakers.

As previously mentioned, too many hard surfaces which will make the treble sound splashy, plus the relatively long thin shape encourages standing waves which lead to boomy bass.

Especially with the engine running to try and charge the batteries.

[ditchcrawler]

The quietest generator installation I have seen on a narrowboat and I admit I haven't seen many was a friends Fishcer Pander in his engine room. A group of us were travelling from the Stafford Boat Club to the IWA national at Worcester and were moored for the night, sitting all over the towpath talking, and engine running after 8pm came up. (makes a change from toilets) One of the boats said its not a problem with a good genny installation and was heavily poo pooed, what we were no aware of as he went to get another drink was he started his genny and not one of us noticed and we were sitting by the bows of the boat. When we walked to the stern we could hear a slight exhaust note from the water cooled exhaust, but a lot less than an ebber.

[WotEver]

I was being shown around a replica Dutch Barge a few years back and when I saw the washing machine running I asked about his shore power arrangement. He replied "We're not plugged in, we're using our genny."  

I couldn't hear a thing. It was a Northern Lights jobbie. 

[Tony Brooks]

Don't know if I should put this here because it may take the discussion well off topic but the OP needs the Bread maker for "when I run photography courses about one a month". I think they will be paid for courses and if they are held aboard that may require a CaRT Business License, different insurance, the boat built and BSS'd to the higher "hire boat" standards and just possibly the skipper holding a suitable qualification. It might even involve MCA inspections. Has the OP looked into this and sorted it out?

[Naughty Cal]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

The quietest generator installation I have seen on a narrowboat and I admit I haven't seen many was a friends Fishcer Pander in his engine room. A group of us were travelling from the Stafford Boat Club to the IWA national at Worcester and were moored for the night, sitting all over the towpath talking, and engine running after 8pm came up. (makes a change from toilets) One of the boats said its not a problem with a good genny installation and was heavily poo pooed, what we were no aware of as he went to get another drink was he started his genny and not one of us noticed and we were sitting by the bows of the boat. When we walked to the stern we could hear a slight exhaust note from the water cooled exhaust, but a lot less than an ebber.

We have a few friends with proper in built gennies and they are pretty much silent in operation, other then as you say a slight bit of exhaust noise but nothing to upset anyone.

Certainly something we will be considering when we move onto a boat in the future. Not the cheapest option by a long way but very practical.

37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Don't know if I should put this here because it may take the discussion well off topic but the OP needs the Bread maker for "when I run photography courses about one a month". I think they will be paid for courses and if they are held aboard that may require a CaRT Business License, different insurance, the boat built and BSS'd to the higher "hire boat" standards and just possibly the skipper holding a suitable qualification. It might even involve MCA inspections. Has the OP looked into this and sorted it out?

I am going to go for no as the answer to that one 

[Alan de Enfield]

56 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Don't know if I should put this here because it may take the discussion well off topic but the OP needs the Bread maker for "when I run photography courses about one a month". I think they will be paid for courses and if they are held aboard that may require a CaRT Business License, different insurance, the boat built and BSS'd to the higher "hire boat" standards and just possibly the skipper holding a suitable qualification. It might even involve MCA inspections. Has the OP looked into this and sorted it out?

Exceedingly good point Mr Kipling !

Quote from the BSS "Do you invite people on board your boat in the course of a business, e.g. is it a café or shop?"

If the answer is yes then it needs a 'commercial BSSC' to the 2002 standards, Commercial licence from C&RT, and higher levels of business insurance.

Edit to add :

As food is involved it may also require Local Authority hygiene inspections etc.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

And as its a new build the OP had better make sure it is RCD "plated" for the maximum number of people who will be aboard at any one time. Otherwise any insurance is likely to be invalid.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

And as its a new build the OP had better make sure it is RCD "plated" for the maximum number of people who will be aboard at any one time. Otherwise any insurance is likely to be invalid.

Please sir - I've got one of them!!

I can carry :

8 people who's name begins with A

10 people who's name begins with B

12 people who's name begins with C

or 14 people who's name begins with D

I guess anyone else just comes under the "maximum load of 3013kg"

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Yes,  but is that not on a proper boat, not a modified steel tank. The plates I have seen on inland craft usually just give the same number of persons as they have berths and compared with the number that the boat can safely  carry its very few.

[Dr Bob]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Please sir - I've got one of them!!

I can carry :

8 people who's name begins with A

10 people who's name begins with B

12 people who's name begins with C

or 14 people who's name begins with D

I guess anyone else just comes under the "maximum load of 3013kg"

 

 

Now you are just boasting -  a Lagoon 380!!! I wish. Maybe I would go back to lumpy water boating.

[ditchcrawler]

13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Don't know if I should put this here because it may take the discussion well off topic but the OP needs the Bread maker for "when I run photography courses about one a month". I think they will be paid for courses and if they are held aboard that may require a CaRT Business License, different insurance, the boat built and BSS'd to the higher "hire boat" standards and just possibly the skipper holding a suitable qualification. It might even involve MCA inspections. Has the OP looked into this and sorted it out?

Funny thing Tony, I was thinking exactly the same thing as I was going along today and was going to post it tonight

 

[Peppers]

On 4 September 2017 at 14:48, Tony Brooks said:

I agree with that and have almost said as much except I was talking abut the 175 A alternator providing power for the bread maker. However I suspect the sound studio would not be in use while the boat was moving. As you say the challenge is getting a practical solution and the OP has, to my mind, not been very co-operative in that. Maybe due to a lack of knowledge, I simply do not know. We need far more info so we can double check the power audit and I suspect its prove to be far harder to provide than the OP imagined. I suspect that if a watt meter was used at home the actual power required would drop rather a lot

I'm just waiting on my watt meter to arrive and then I will hopefully be able to calculate a much more accurate audit. Again, I can only apologise for my inaccuracies so far. And I'm honestly not intentionally being uncooperative. I'm sorry that you've taken the questions I've asked in that way.

14 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Don't know if I should put this here because it may take the discussion well off topic but the OP needs the Bread maker for "when I run photography courses about one a month". I think they will be paid for courses and if they are held aboard that may require a CaRT Business License, different insurance, the boat built and BSS'd to the higher "hire boat" standards and just possibly the skipper holding a suitable qualification. It might even involve MCA inspections. Has the OP looked into this and sorted it out?

And on this point, they are neither paid for courses, nor will they be held aboard. Basically I volunteer run a workshop for vulnerable single mothers and their children in collaboration with an art gallery in south london, and one of the workshops we run involves baking little items into bread for them to find in their loaves. This means the kids making things during one workshop and then me going home (alone) and sticking them into the bread maker surrounded by flour. Most of them don't even eat them or manage to get them home to mum and dad but just tear them open at the next workshop and play with them. I choose to do it with a bread maker because it would be more time consuming to make the bread by hand than just stick it in the machine, and as I say I do this as a volunteer. As I'd mentioned before I am willing to just not run this workshop anymore, or not cook it from the boat etc. etc. if the electricity would be too much for it, but as others have mentioned they are able to run these sorts of items then I have just been trying to understand the best solution to enable me to run them too. It would not, as I understand it, require any further insurance or licensing.

 

Thank you so much to everyone who has shared information about generators - I will sit and have a good read through that victron test and look at the Fischer Panda's, so thank you to those who shared that  

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, Peppers said:

And on this point, they are neither paid for courses, nor will they be held aboard. Basically I volunteer run a workshop for vulnerable single mothers and their children in collaboration with an art gallery in south london, and one of the workshops we run involves baking little items into bread for them to find in their loaves. This means the kids making things during one workshop and then me going home (alone) and sticking them into the bread maker surrounded by flour. Most of them don't even eat them or manage to get them home to mum and dad but just tear them open at the next workshop and play with them. I choose to do it with a bread maker because it would be more time consuming to make the bread by hand than just stick it in the machine, and as I say I do this as a volunteer. As I'd mentioned before I am willing to just not run this workshop anymore, or not cook it from the boat etc. etc. if the electricity would be too much for it, but as others have mentioned they are able to run these sorts of items then I have just been trying to understand the best solution to enable me to run them too. It would not, as I understand it, require any further insurance or licensing.

Then you will have no problems with 'business' licences, insurance or BSS  - carry on 'as you were'.

It sounds as if you provide a valuable service to those in need.

[WotEver]

10 hours ago, Peppers said:

Again, I can only apologise for my inaccuracies so far. And I'm honestly not intentionally being uncooperative.

No worries. TonyB did say that he wondered if it was simply that you didn't yet know, and that appears to be the case. Once you've got your power meter you'll be in a much better position to give some accurate figures. Also think closely how many lamps you'll have on and for how long. LEDs at 2W are pretty bright, particularly on the small confines of a boat, and 10 of them would only consume 1.7A, so take your time to really think about the audit and get it right. You only have to do it once but it is the essential starting point for designing the electrical installation so it's worth taking several hours over to be accurate (or as close as is practical). 

Edited September 6, 2017 by WotEver
Typo

[Tony Brooks]

I am really pleased my fears turned out to be groundless but if you had been planning paid for courses (as someone here a year or so ago was) then the points I raised may have saved you a lot of worry and money. Please keep up the good work with the kids.

You don't need to apologise, I guessed you were probably looking at the "wrong" labels and know only too well how they can be used to mislead for marketing purposes. Apart from the  amp/speakers another thing to watch is microwaves (I know you have not listed one). The wattage most people quote is the cooking power with the real consumption being about twice the cooking power.

Remember once you accept that you may need to run a generator or the engine alternator/Travelpower to power certain items all sorts of other modern conveniences become doable as long as you still ensure the batteries are kept as near fully charged as possible. Just keep in mind that CaRT say that you shoudl not run engines between 8pm and 8am if other boats  or residents are close by.

[JamesFrance]

Reading this topic makes me think how much liveaboard life has changed over the years.   In 1969 we were living on an old 42ft Mororsailer and spent the winter in Malta with no electric connection and only one battery for starting the engine.

Our power audit needed to be zero so we used the following combination:

Light and heat was provided by a Tilley lamp using paraffin under pressure.   This was enough to keep the boat warm in the evening.

I fitted Whale foot operated water pumps in front of the basins.

Cooking was by gas and I refilled the Calor cylinders by hanging a local one upside down connected by polythene pipe and Jubilee clips.

Hot water by solar shower, a black plastic bag on deck and hose through a porthole, still available from Argos.

Malta was going over to mains electricity so we bought a paraffin fridge from the Electrolux warehouse which took hundreds in part exchange.   This I installed in the wheelhouse above deck and it made lots of ice even in extreme heat outside when we transited the Canal du Midi in August.

Electric consumption zero.

Edited September 6, 2017 by JamesFrance
typo

[Richard10002]

7 hours ago, JamesFrance said:

Reading this topic makes me think how much liveaboard life has changed over the years.   In 1969 we were living on an old 42ft Mororsailer and spent the winter in Malta with no electric connection and only one battery for starting the engine.

Our power audit needed to be zero so we used the following combination:

Light and heat was provided by a Tilley lamp using paraffin under pressure.   This was enough to keep the boat warm in the evening.

I fitted Whale foot operated water pumps in front of the basins.

Cooking was by gas and I refilled the Calor cylinders by hanging a local one upside down connected by polythene pipe and Jubilee clips.

Hot water by solar shower, a black plastic bag on deck and hose through a porthole, still available from Argos.

Malta was going over to mains electricity so we bought a paraffin fridge from the Electrolux warehouse which took hundreds in part exchange.   This I installed in the wheelhouse above deck and it made lots of ice even in extreme heat outside when we transited the Canal du Midi in August.

Electric consumption zero.

Reading your post makes me think how much living in a house has changed over the years. In 1969.........  

[LadyG]

On 04/09/2017 at 14:48, Tony Brooks said:

I agree with that and have almost said as much except I was talking abut the 175 A alternator providing power for the bread maker. However I suspect the sound studio would not be in use while the boat was moving. As you say the challenge is getting a practical solution and the OP has, to my mind, not been very co-operative in that. Maybe due to a lack of knowledge, I simply do not know. We need far more info so we can double check the power audit and I suspect its prove to be far harder to provide than the OP imagined. I suspect that if a watt meter was used at home the actual power required would drop rather a lot.

Is it possible to to record usage at the present, presumably they won't use any more on a boat? 

Don't use an electric oven, and turn off electric heaters

Edited December 13, 2017 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

Is it possible to just identify usage at the present, presumably they won't use any more on a boat? 

No, because they will look at the label on the Bread Maker, see 1200 watts and then note it takes 3 hours to make a loaf of bread. ie. 3.6Kwh