Advice needed (not a narrow boat)

[Calranthe]

My main concern is the temp gauge which starts at 80 and raises to 100 now the Canal Rescue people brought a hand held unit and even on full throttle they could not get a reading off the actual engine above 70, so is that a faulty unit or should we still be really concerned ?

(water cooling system is working fine lots of water coming out the back end and no blockage) so once again inclined to  believe the temp gauge is faulty), when you turn the engine on from a cold start it goes straight to 80 then creeps to 100.

After thinking about it, I think the bent fuel line got bent a long time ago and restricted the fuel so the leaks never showed up because all the fuel or most of it was spent in the combustion.

Now we know BMC engines have leaks its a known thing, but this is beyond the norm, the CRR engineer they sent out knew BMC engines but was concerned and they made no money off any of this even rang around tried to help me get into a marina with a workshop.

After all we made it 6 miles up the TMC and 6 miles back, I could deal with losing some diesel and a bit of oil and continue the Journey as we are not doing damage to the engine or hull.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

40 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

I could deal with losing some diesel and a bit of oil and continue the Journey as we are not doing damage to the engine or hull.

As awkward as it may be at the time, I would suggest NOT continuing the journey.

Mechanical 'things' that are a bit poorly rarely get any better with continued use, in fact, they normally get worse - what happens if the slight oil leak, suddenly becomes a 'total escape' of oil (maybe the threads strip on the oil filter, a pipe bursts - whatever) - you are now stuck on a 'wild section' of the River, no way to get off and no way of getting the boat to a mechanic (or vice versa)

 

Presently you are safely ensconced in a marina with electricity, water, toilets, shop, café and access for a mechanic.

Go home to 'the wife' and 'get a man in' to sort it out.

You have certainly had a bad start to boat ownership, but at least you are now prepared for the future (it will happen again)

[rusty69]

The other option is to move it by road as you have previously looked into. It would be a great shame to do it this way, but if it worked out cheaper than paying two lots of marina fees, maybe worth revisiting. 

Guess it depends how quickly it could be fixed and whether you still have the time and help available when it has been. 

 

Good  luck

[Momac]

12 hours ago, Calranthe said:

the engine was basically out of oil and a small amount of debris in the water filter.

 

The engine being out of oil is perhaps more concerning than the diesel leak.

If the oil has leaked from the oil filter its an easy fix. If not - has the correct grade of oil been used ?

Sounds like the overheating could be a false reading - a faulty sender ?

Edited June 10, 2017 by MartynG

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Calranthe said:

My main concern is the temp gauge which starts at 80 and raises to 100 now the Canal Rescue people brought a hand held unit and even on full throttle they could not get a reading off the actual engine above 70, so is that a faulty unit or should we still be really concerned ?

 

This tells us for certain the temp gauge is faulty. (Possibly damaged by the leaking diesel.) 

The loss of oil and diesel really need to be addressed though in my opinion. If the broker can't sort it out for you immediately I'd be asking for my money back as the boat is not suitable for its intended use. They will have mechanics available at a moment's notice, whatever they tell you. I bet if you were buying a £50k boat and said you wanted it serviced first, it would be done in a flash. 

[Calranthe]

From the listing No guarantee is given or implied with regard to specification, but descriptions are given in good faith as could be ascertained at the time of inspection. All second hand boats are sold without warranty. We recommend the use of a marine surveyor to ascertain the condition of your intended purchase.

Now we chose not to have a survey and with the price of the boat we are hopefully still looking at a positive result talked to an engineer and we are looking to find out how much it will cost he will get back to us later today.

It is actually a really busy time for Marine engineers before we turned back to sawley we called up other boat yards and no one could fit us in before end of July

Work I would like to get done

Temp gauge fixed , leaks fixed, RPM gauge fixed and a check of the Stern Drive.

[Chewbacka]

3 hours ago, Calranthe said:

My main concern is the temp gauge which starts at 80 and raises to 100 ............

 

First off a daft question - there is a small chance it is a fahrenheit gauge and not centigrade, but assuming it is reading in degrees C then it is obviously faulty.  However this could be the sender, the wiring or the gauge head.   First of all I would check the voltages at the gauge head.  Also senders and gauges are paired, and the resistance of the sender must be 'calibrated' to the gauge, if not it will read wrong, so it is possible the sender was changed, but is the wrong spec for the gauge head.  The easiest, but most expensive is to swap the head and sender as a pair.  But if the head is a 'proper' make, you should be able to get a new sender for it - assuming the head is ok.

[bizzard]

Sounds like a faulty sender. Also the engines crank case breather needs checking out, especially on these BMC's.   If blocked with muck and sludge it could-would account for oil leaks and blue smoke from the exhaust. Crank case breathers almost always get neglected and are very often the cause of oil leaks and blue smoke on any engine. I bet its never been checked and cleaned.

[Calranthe]

So how did the actual journey about 5.5miles up the TMC go.

Peter got lost on his way to the boat, ended up about 30-40 minutes away from Sawley Marina  and had to walk down the river to get to us.

He got me to take the boat out of the Marina which frankly terrified me but I made it, as did the first lock here I am on the boat on my own and he is off

doing whatever infernal magic he did while I held on like my life depended on it to what felt like a tiny rope over a bollard, visions in my head of the rope

breaking and me slowly drifting down the Trent with no idea how to save myself.

It was as this point (me still in my inflatable life jacket like to ward against watery death) I told Peter that I had a morbid fear of water since I was 12 years old and drowned in a swimming bath (some one ran out of the changing room and knocked me into the water, I not so promptly ended up on the bottom of  the bath heart and breathing stopped.) that even walking Paola down the canal kinda freaked me out as did any body of water but hey my wife has fought an illness that has tried to kill her for 18 years I am not going to let my problems stop her from having everything she wants.

Funny thing is I have always loved and appreciated the water ways, just not wanted to actually get in and erm stop breathing again  so you can imagine I don't think Peter noticed just how white knuckle I was holding on to the hand holds on the boat.

Well after a couple of locks and a little go at piloting the boat, I started helping with the locks this meant getting over my biggest freak out fear that of actually doing the crazy ass totally illogical thing of getting off and on the boat, I mean i'm on the boat i'm holding on to said boat and feeling kinda safe it doesn't matter that the water is only 3ft deep in most parts it could be an unholy cthonic abyss of monsters, no I was far safer just standing here and listening to David Bowie over the sound of the engine.

First try at leaving the boat to do a lock after finally letting Peter know I wanted too, erm well I have the rope ready to jump off and steady the boat well what we did not realise is as I began to step off the boat which to me was a leap greater than any in my life, said rope coiled around the fire extinguisher and as I landed on the bank the extinguisher sailed over my head and on to the bank, at this point Peter had the priority of don't let it fall in the water and I had the priority of trying to stop a boat that had slipped back into gear and was dragging me along the ground.

We wrestled the boat in and saved the fire extinguisher and I did my first lock finding that I actually really enjoyed the act of opening the paddles, swinging the giant gates open from that moment on I did each lock did less falling over and getting on and off the boat became I wouldn't say easy but kinda routine, limit of my courage was those locks that you have to climb over the gates to get the other side that still scares me and I prefer just to do one side on those kind but I will get past that too.

Peter was amazing and let me do everything at my own pace, funny thing is by the end of it even when he offered to help with the locks I preferred doing it myself.

So we made it out and back.

I have a few scrapes but my knowledge is 100 times more than I had before and I can't wait to get the boat fixed and try again.

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Calranthe

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This tells us for certain the temp gauge is faulty. (Possibly damaged by the leaking diesel.) 

The loss of oil and diesel really need to be addressed though in my opinion. If the broker can't sort it out for you immediately I'd be asking for my money back as the boat is not suitable for its intended use. They will have mechanics available at a moment's notice, whatever they tell you. I bet if you were buying a £50k boat and said you wanted it serviced first, it would be done in a flash. 

As you well know, unless the boat is owned by the brokerage there is absolutely no come back.

We know that it is (was) a private sale - so, the brokers and the seller have already exceeded what they must 'do'.

It is unfortunate for the OP, but 'its someone elses fault' will not work and neither the seller or the broker is under any obligation 'to sort it out immediately'

Don't give the OP false hopes.

[Paul C]

Regarding the water temperature reading, the best thing to do would be to go and buy a new, matching, temperature gauge and sender. Until they're in place, you'll never be sure of what the water temp. is. Cost? About £50. Cost of a blown head gasket, at an inopportune time.....you get the idea. Once its fitted and working properly, you'll get a sense of what's "normal" and what's "abnormal" for your engine, but until then its a bit of a guess/estimation. Many boats don't even have a gauge, just a "temp high" buzzer.

Regarding the diesel leak, its a case of cleaning the area where it has leaked from, then observing it while the engine is running, then tightening up the connection which its leaking from; or if the connection has poor mating surfaces, or a seal (unlikely but possible) replacing relevant parts.

Similar with oil leak.

If you have some way of containing the leak (which you should have, its a requirement) and the leak is small, I'd continue but obviously ensure the oil is topped up regularly. If its a gusher, then I'd not continue without at least some kind of significant decrease - its a judgement call though. I bet the engine is filthy, so seeing where a leak is coming from would be a challenge. You can buy engine degreaser which is the best stuff to use on engines, although any solvent will do a job (but cost more and evaporate away quicker, therefore being less effective). Heck, even WD40 would do if you have nothing else.

For 4.5k (was it this much), an engine which is giving reasonable power and starts reasonably well, is about as much as you can expect. You did the right thing picking an inboard diesel over an outboard petrol, stick with it.

[Calranthe]

13 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Regarding the water temperature reading, the best thing to do would be to go and buy a new, matching, temperature gauge and sender. Until they're in place, you'll never be sure of what the water temp. is. Cost? About £50. Cost of a blown head gasket, at an inopportune time.....you get the idea. Once its fitted and working properly, you'll get a sense of what's "normal" and what's "abnormal" for your engine, but until then its a bit of a guess/estimation. Many boats don't even have a gauge, just a "temp high" buzzer.

Regarding the diesel leak, its a case of cleaning the area where it has leaked from, then observing it while the engine is running, then tightening up the connection which its leaking from; or if the connection has poor mating surfaces, or a seal (unlikely but possible) replacing relevant parts.

Similar with oil leak.

If you have some way of containing the leak (which you should have, its a requirement) and the leak is small, I'd continue but obviously ensure the oil is topped up regularly. If its a gusher, then I'd not continue without at least some kind of significant decrease - its a judgement call though. I bet the engine is filthy, so seeing where a leak is coming from would be a challenge. You can buy engine degreaser which is the best stuff to use on engines, although any solvent will do a job (but cost more and evaporate away quicker, therefore being less effective). Heck, even WD40 would do if you have nothing else.

For 4.5k (was it this much), an engine which is giving reasonable power and starts reasonably well, is about as much as you can expect. You did the right thing picking an inboard diesel over an outboard petrol, stick with it.

The engine is quite clean actually and the boat only cost £3300

[Paul C]

Ok that's cool, is it possible to see where the oil leak is coming from?

[Calranthe]

Just now, Paul C said:

Ok that's cool, is it possible to see where the oil leak is coming from?

That is the problem, to say everywhere would be an exaggeration but both the oil and fuel leak are coming exiting from most places the engine parts connect.

It looks like when it was serviced originally by whoever did it they did not do any resealing or even over-tightened some nuts.

let me show you on a picture

the lines are where it is leaking from when running

 

 

That picture was taken before we left or finished buying, it is not a spray leak as in (one little leak spraying all over) the black oil filter at the front is dripping the top part of the oil system is wet, the main block is wet. To me all of that could only have happened if  the person who serviced it (replaced pipes and glo's did not reseal the engine afterwards) this kind of leaking from everything shows some one who did not know the needs of the engine to be sealed properly.

[Paul C]

Most of those fittings don't have seals, over & above the actual pipes/connectors themselves. Its normally a simple case of tightening gradually until it no longer leaks. The fact that they are all leaking might suggest an attempt was made to bleed the fuel system (possibly after the filter was replaced) but I don't know why they weren't subsequently tightened, I can only guess the guy was interrupted or never got the chance to go back and complete the job. Bizarre!

[Jen-in-Wellies]

The connections that are leaking are places which are loosened to bleed air out of the diesel system after a filter change, or other maintenanced, or running out of fuel. To stop the leaks you just need an appropriate size spanner to tighten them up and they should seal. As Paul C says it does look like someone got interrupted and didn't finish.

Jen

Edited June 10, 2017 by Jen-in-Wellies

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The connections that are leaking are places which are loosened to bleed air out of the diesel system after a filter change, or other maintenanced, or running out of fuel. To stop the leaks you just need an appropriate size spanner to tighten them up and they should seal. As Paul C says it does look like someone got interrupted and didn't finish.

Jen

I'd go with that as well

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I'd go with that as well

I'll join in and say me too. I guess Tony B will be along shortly to agree too

However, it doesn't explain the oil leak...

[Calranthe]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I'd go with that as well

Bugger well that I could have done myself

 

[Tony Brooks]

That "black oil filter" is the fuel filter and it has3 or 4 seals in it.Only two or three would cause leaks. If the leak is all over the top then it is likely to be from under the bolt head that holds the whole filter assembly together. This may be sealed by a soft washer or more usually a small O ring. I have heard that some of the small O rings supplied with new pattern filters are too small/thin in section.

To see which you need, soft washer or O ring, the bolt has to come out and the hole it fits into inspected. If the top of the hole has a  right angled shoulder on it then a soft washer is needed. If it is slightly tapered then it is sealed by an O ring.

Because of the problems others have had with the O rings I always buy CAV or Mann filters for this application.

When the engine it is usual to loosen the larger hexagon that is just behind the smaller centre bolt. This is sealed by soft washers. Either 2 or 3, 3 if there are two banjos on the bolt, I can not see in the photo. If they are copper washers it may be a good idea to renew them because copper work hardens. (or heat to cherry red on the gas stove) to re-soften (anneal) them.

One of the black lines points to a simple fixing bolt. This can not leak. Another line also points to the joint between the filter head and a non-return valve. This is sealed by a copper washer BUT I can see no reason to loosen it. A leak there is more likely to be from the adjacent  banjo union that again is sealed by two soft washers.

Certainly try tightening every thing up but be aware its east to strip threads screwed into aluminium. If any union with a O ring or soft washers are leaking rather than keep on tightening it may be best to fit new soft washers.

 

I am still unclear where  any oil leaks are coming from. What Biz said about the crankcase breather is correct, try running it with the oil filler cap off with a piece of rag tied over the hole.  I do not know if it was one of yours but I have recently seen a photo of a 1.5 with a spin on filter conversion. With or without the conversion the most likely place for a bad oil leak is a poorly fitted filter or filter head. An overfilled 1.5 may leak oil from the rear main seal because on some the seal was an Archimedes screw but once the surplus had leaked out it should stop. It would not drain the sump.

Yes - it was your alternator photo but the camera was too vertically overhead to actually see the filter part. The filter head looks more like the conversion than the original but I can not be sure. What i would say is that the head is fixed to the block by studs that are too long and are packed with lots of steel washers. Maybe the fixing has run out of thread so although the nuts feel tight the force clamping it to the block may be too little. I can not see the joint to the block so there might be no gasket or it might be leaking.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[Ex Brummie]

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 15:45, Alan de Enfield said:

You have obviously never used a Coffman engine starter.

Interesting to say the least.

I had to look it up on Wikipedia. The nearest I've encountered was a cartridge starter on a Bollinder in an ex FMC motor. We were breasted up to it, and in fairness, the steerer warned me. I understood what he meant, but left my wife with no ice cream and a laundry problem.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Ex Brummie said:

I had to look it up on Wikipedia. The nearest I've encountered was a cartridge starter on a Bollinder in an ex FMC motor. We were breasted up to it, and in fairness, the steerer warned me. I understood what he meant, but left my wife with no ice cream and a laundry problem.

We used to have a Chipmunk that used them.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As you well know, unless the boat is owned by the brokerage there is absolutely no come back.

We know that it is (was) a private sale - so, the brokers and the seller have already exceeded what they must 'do'.

It is unfortunate for the OP, but 'its someone elses fault' will not work and neither the seller or the broker is under any obligation 'to sort it out immediately'

Don't give the OP false hopes.

 

Wrong. 

We didn't all know, I thought it was a sale by the broker which is why I wrote what I wrote. 

Apologies for to the OP for giving false hope, although from his reply I don't think he took any.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Wrong. 

We didn't all know, I thought it was a sale by the broker which is why I wrote what I wrote. 

Apologies for to the OP for giving false hope, although from his reply I don't think he took any.

It was for sale by a broker, but, the previous owner was involved in some of the pre-purchase 'negotiations / repairs/ servicing'.

A broker is solely that - a broker - and introduces the seller to a potential buyer. A broker has no legal responsibility for the condition of the boat.

 

Now - if the broker is the 'owner' (as per many boats at our 'favourite broker') then the sale of goods act applies, the boat must be fit-for-purpose and the buyer has a guarantee (warranty). This is why brokers will rarely admit to owning the boat, even when they do.

[MtB]

I think the boat must be accurately described too, even with a private sale. Anything in the sales blurb that suggests the engine is in good running order would provide ammunition for a valid claim.

Not that I think the OP should make one. Better to expend his effort fixing the leaks and just get on with boating. Chalk it up to experience. 

 

 

Edit to delete an unnecessary word.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman