Advice needed (not a narrow boat)

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

Once air is introduced into the fuel system and rotory injection pump on those engines it can be a devil to get rid off. Usually the slightest bit of air in those pumps and the engine probably wouldn't start and run. Consequently most of the pipe connections including the injector feeds would probably have been slackened to erradicate the air before it started.

I agree about the air bit bit I have never needed to slacken all those pipes off. Normally juts the leak back union and in a very few extreme cases the return from the injector pump.

 

24 minutes ago, croftie said:

As far as I can see there was no leaks at the time if your initial test. I suspect the crimped pipe that restricted flow was pre pump therefore suction rather than pressure. Lets assume the restriction resulted in a 30% flow, still enough to supply fuel to the pump and run the engine at "reasonable revs". No leak at either the injectors (high pressure) or fuel return (low pressure).

 

Now could it be that you or the broker after the test run dropped the lid (not knowing you have to be careful) and caused the pre pump pipe to tottaly close? Result now a none start.

New pre pump pipe fitted and fuel system bleed. Now we have leaks not only at injectors (HP) but even at filter fuel return to tank (LP). Conclusion - unions not tightened up correctly after bleeding.

I am not going to trash the engineer but I do have doubts about the RCR bod.

There are two "bulk" fuel pumps on these systems. One is the lift pump that I think on yours has been changed to an electric one (not 100% sure though or why) and the other in series with it is the rotary transfer pump in the end of the injector pump. Both are in series with each other and as far as the standard 1.5 is concerned the transfer pump can, if it needs to, draw fuel through the lift pump. (again not so sure about with the black thing in your fuel line.

A typical diesel engine at full power delivers LESS than a pinhead full of fuel at each injector pulse so even at 1500 RPM you will get 750 x 4 pinheads worth. That is not  a lot of fuel and it will be only about 400 x 4 or less at idle. Unless the kink in the pipe was completely closed I would expect the transfer pump to be more than capable of drawing the fuel required through the kink.

Engines with the hydraulically governed DPA injector pump like the 1.5 have an interesting feature. That is, unlike most other diesel systems, when they run short f fuel they rev themselves up. You make no mention of this I think.

There should be a 0.5mm diameter drilling in the banjo bolt on the fuel filter than bleeds fuel & air back to the tank. The transfer pump always delivers far more fuel than the injector pump needs so the surplus is returned back to the top of the filter os that again supports the view that the kink did not cause the leaks.

On balance I go with the others saying the kink was not the cause of the fuel leaks. I also suspect that air in the system stopped you from running it when you could not start it. The transfer pump may well have sucked air through the leaks at the filter head.

 

I am wondering f your purchase of the boat interrupted a ploy to get a mate a cheap boa. I have absolutely no evidence of this apart from leaks that suddenly appeared from nowhere.

[croftie]

One point I forgot to make in my post above it that he who touches the fuel system last is really responsible for any leaks, after doing any work on the system you should run the engine at for a decent length of time, preferably up to working temp, checking every union whether you touched it or not.

Added:

No need to touch anything whilst checking, just keep wiping with tissue paper several times to see it remains dry

Edited June 11, 2017 by croftie
added content

[bizzard]

M.Thatcher would have made sure the Unions were tightened up.

[MHS]

6 minutes ago, bizzard said:

M.Thatcher would have made sure the Unions were tightened up.

Or got rid of them completely!!

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, Calranthe said:

I may not know a lot about boats are you saying that the following idea is impossible

Reduction in fuel amount to the engine say 30-50% would have no affect on how much fuel is in the engine and how much excess fuel not used is in the system and thus available to exit via leaks ?

Instead you want to trash an engineer without even knowing who he is are you both 100% certain that your theory is correct because if you are and can back this up with some credence then I will have words with him but if this is just assumption and supposition based on horror stories about engineers let me know.

No one knows what actually went wrong with your engine, but people can have a view based upon their knowledge and experience and the balance of probability.  The key point is knowing who has a view that is worth considering and who doesn't.  However I would add that a restriction on a low pressure feed pipe would have little impact on the fuel pressure after the high pressure injection pump - dropping the pressure low enough to 'stop' the leak would also stop the engine.

[Calranthe]

Now it all makes sense, Mark has spent the last two day making sure it is all okay and the bad news is the real problem is a severely leaking fuel injection system to the point you can hear the drip drip of the fuel coming off the bottom, Mark is going to get a reconditioned fuel system and fit it, it makes a lot of sense of the lack of power and it fits in with what CRR were saying, £480 for the two days work upto now and fitting the new unit and testing everything also if any other gaskets need changing it is in with the price, we are postponing the trip until 22nd no rush on this.

Also confirmed it has a new impeller and it is fine.

Now I know some of you think it was bad engineer but I do not think so, Sawley is a good Marina and they have on multiple conversations confirmed he has been there go to guy day or night with a great reputation.

[Momac]

So what caused the engine oil to be lost ?

[Tony Brooks]

You can get reconditioned injectors, injector pumps and just possibly the lift pump but I expect the lift pump would be a new Indian or Turkish pattern item. You can get NEW filters and fuel pipes.

I think that for your own sake you need to find out what this "reconditioned fuel system" consists of.

I can fully believe that you can hear drips from the mechanical lift pump if the bolts holding the two halves together are loose. I can well believe that you can hear fuel dripping from the injector pump, especially if the sulphur free diesel has allowed worn seals that were once swollen to shrink.

I do not believe that you will hear drips from the injectors unless the main pipe "olives/flares" are worn.

I do not see how the leaks you indicated on the filter can be cured by fitting an overhauled injector pump, lift pump or injectors.

[LadyG]

This has really put me off the BMC, far too complex, else I was just very lucky, had a good mechanic and a good engine specialist [Yanmar YSB], and managed the routine stuff myself with a thirty year old engine. 

This is a baptism of fire, and to be honest I would ask vendor to pay half your bill. What's the worst he can say...

Edited June 11, 2017 by LadyG

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

This has really put me off the BMC, far too complex, else i was just very lucky, had a good mechanic and a good engine specialist [Yanmar YSB], and managed the routine stuuff myself with a thirty year old engine. 

This is a baptism of fire, and to be honest I would ask vendor to pay half your bill. Whats the worst he can say...

I still havd a yanmar ysb, still going strong over 30 years old

[LadyG]

Just now, rusty69 said:

I still havd a yanmar ysb, still going strong over 30 years old

yep, mine once had an overhead cylinder gasket go, the oil was full of salt water, but the engine just kept going lol.

[Tony Brooks]

53 minutes ago, LadyG said:

This has really put me off the BMC, far too complex, else I was just very lucky, had a good mechanic and a good engine specialist [Yanmar YSB], and managed the routine stuff myself with a thirty year old engine. 

This is a baptism of fire, and to be honest I would ask vendor to pay half your bill. What's the worst he can say...

BMCs are not complex engines, it just sounds like it because Calranthe is having problems and as he/the seem willing and wanting to learn I have taken some trouble to try to explain things to them - just like I tried to explain to you how the interaction between shallow confined canals, narrowboat hull shapes, and the effect of the prop interact with each other.

In time Calranthe will learn enough and get the confidence to do most of these repairs themselves.

Many BMCs are however getting rather old - maybe 50 years old - so many will be worn out and causing problems. Just like many other 40 or 50 year old engines. If you think the BMC is complex do not look at a Perkins 4-xxx, another long lived but older engine.

I await with interest to see how well the "favourite" engines perform in 40 years time.

I doubt you can routinely time the injector pump on modern engines as easily as you can a BMC 1.5 or 1.8.

 

PS Lady G - I have no idea what the PM you sent me was about.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[Northernboater]

59 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

BMCs are not complex engines, it just sounds like it because Calranthe is having problems and as he/the seem willing and wanting to learn I have taken some trouble to try to explain things to them - just like I tried to explain to you how the interaction between shallow confined canals, narrowboat hull shapes, and the effect of the prop interact with each other.

In time Calranthe will learn enough and get the confidence to do most of these repairs themselves.

Many BMCs are however getting rather old - maybe 50 years old - so many will be worn out and causing problems. Just like many other 40 or 50 year old engines. If you think the BMC is complex do not look at a Perkins 4-xxx, another long lived but older engine.

I await with interest to see how well the "favourite" engines perform in 40 years time.

I doubt you can routinely time the injector pump on modern engines as easily as you can a BMC 1.5 or 1.8.

 

PS Lady G - I have no idea what the PM you sent me was about.

Just don't buy an old plastic with an old BMC engine in it, as it will end up costing you as much as the original purchase price in maintenance and repairs.

  Tony you await 40 years to see if people can time their injector pump on a modern engine as easy as a BMC? By then you will be dead as will most of the people on here, if not they will have no clue what a BMC engine is or know how to set the timing.  Lady G your right, stick to a modern Yanmar based engine and stay away from old engines that the old people look at through rosy glasses. 

It will be interesting what it costs the OP in bills to get this boat running ok? I should imagine not much less then the cost of the boat.

 

  

Edited June 11, 2017 by Northernboater

[Momac]

9 minutes ago, Northernboater said:

Just don't buy an old plastic with an old BMC engine in it

 

  

Are these same engines not used in narrowboats ? Is there not equal risk in buying an old narrowboat?

 

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Northernboater said:

Just don't buy an old plastic with an old BMC engine in it, as it will end up costing you as much as the original purchase price in maintenance and repairs.

  Tony you await 40 years to see if people can time their injector pump on a modern engine as easy as a BMC? By then you will be dead as will most of the people on here, if not they will have no clue what a BMC engine is or know how to set the timing.  Lady G your right, stick to a modern Yanmar based engine and stay away from old engines that the old people look at through rosy glasses. 

It will be interesting what it costs the OP in bills to get this boat running ok? I should imagine not much less then the cost of the boat.

 

  

As far as I am concerned lady G and now yourself have made an unfounded statement. Personally I would rather have an engine where the manuals are readily available online and it is fairly easy to find spare.

By all means say BMC engines are old technology, by all means say many BMCs around are worn out & poorly maintained but do not say they are complex. They are no more and no less complex than modern engines. I would also comment that despite the fairly small Yanmar user base on the inland waterway they seem to generate more than their fair share of questions to the magazine.

If you can afford it then obliviously a modern low hours engine is LIKELY (not will) be more reliable than a 40 year old one but not  everyone is in that position. They have to make do with what they can afford. Its nothing to do with old people or rosy glasses.

In any case lady G has shown she thinks she knows it all and is not in the best position to comment on this thread.

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Are these same engines not used in narrowboats ? Is there not equal risk in buying an old narrowboat?

 

Of course they are. Methinks we have two contributors who give advice with little background knowledge.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Of course they are. Methinks we have two contributors who give advice with little background knowledge

Surely that would never happen - they would be seen thru' immediately - whoops - they have been haven't they.

[Paul C]

I was led to believe that BMCs are an old (ie 40 years) design, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all BMC or BMC-like engines are actually that age. Didn't a company, basically, remanufacture and marinise them, thus there is a large pool of engines around 10-20 years old, which if reasonably well maintained are reliable and will have plenty of life left in them?

I think its one of those things where engineers, especially marine engineers, like to create some kind of mystery surrounding them, saying that they need this & that etc when in fact the BMC diesel, and many diesels used in boats, are reliable, easy to find parts for and easy to maintain. And that its a fact of life that there's plenty of "marine engineers" which will be doing (compared to the equivalent mechanic in a car garage) very easy/basic stuff but making a living out of it, and somewhat relying upon newbies to boating who might be naive or overly worried etc etc, or others who are for whatever reason unable to do mechanical work themselves. Now whether this is seen as a good or bad thing, is another area for debate.

Having said that there are a few isolated examples (Vetus springs to mind) where parts can be ridiculous sums of money, sometimes its unique to a marinised engine or its installation in a boat; and sometimes there's an equivalent non "marine" part where that word seems to mean triple the price.

[Tony Brooks]

I suspect Yanmar might be one of those with expensive parts - especially when Barrus have added their cut. I can not remember seeing many agricultural or plant agents showing their are Yanmar suppliers unlike Kubota.

[mross]

1 hour ago, Northernboater said:

Tony you await 40 years to see if people can time their injector pump on a modern engine as easy as a BMC? By then you will be dead as will most of the people on here,

This gratuitous rudeness is not in spirit of this forum.  I know northerners can be blunt but this is over the top.

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, mross said:

This gratuitous rudeness is not in spirit of this forum.  I know northerners can be blunt but this is over the top.

Ignore him, I suspect it did not read as he thought it would on the page. Anyway he totally missed the point I was  trying to make.

Love to see him trying to sort out an ECU controlled diesel with a  basic tool kit - as they will all be in 40 years time, If we are still running diesels..

[Calranthe]

I have faith in my little boat kathleen and I have faith in BMC engines, you are right Tony I am very grateful for all the information you are sharing, I also talked to the main engineer at Calcutt he advised me to stick with BMC and that once I learn and get use to a 1.5 it will last a lifetime, you just have to take care of them and learn from newbie mistakes.

For the record I have a full set of AF spanners, Torque wrench and socket set but I want to slowly build up my knowledge, in theory with help from here and parts bought from Calcutt plus Asap (I think that is the name) I could have got all dirty and had fun taking things apart but, the boat is 50 minutes either way journey from home and my self imposed limit is one 3 day away from looking after my wife, once it is at Aston and is only 20 minutes or less away then I can take a lot of it on myself and I already love the engine.

Also I paid only 3,300 for a solid hull, good electrics, sound structure and an engine that should be good with some work, I set aside 4,500 for the boat + 500 for survey and 500 for moving the boat, so we are still coming out on top.

 

[Chewbacka]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Ignore him, I suspect it did not read as he thought it would on the page. Anyway he totally missed the point I was  trying to make.

Love to see him trying to sort out an ECU controlled diesel with a  basic tool kit - as they will all be in 40 years time, If we are still running diesels..

In well under 40 years time the ECU will have died and it will not be repairable as no one will make the processor chips as they will be over 10 years old and obsolete and unsupported. This will be a big problem for future boat engines as much tighter emissions controls start to be mandated.

[Calranthe]

I think most of the issues on this post have come from myself and Peter not knowing enough or being good enough at repeating all the technical stuff the CRR and marine engineers told us on the phone, I may not know about boats but I have delt with a lot of shifty people in computer side of things and medical side of things, my instinct is that the engineer is doing what needs to be done and I do get the feeling he actually cares about the work he does, he works for one of the big boat yards and does work at Sawley as they help each other out.

It is far more likely that the mistakes as in messages, faults and problems not being explained well by me are just simple mistakes and I honestly believe what is being done to the boat this week is what needs to be done.

One of the main things the guy at calcutt boats told me was that a lot of the modern engines will never last like a BMC will and from my experience on here I think calcutt are held is pretty high regard and know what they are talking about.

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect Yanmar might be one of those with expensive parts - especially when Barrus have added their cut. I can not remember seeing many agricultural or plant agents showing their are Yanmar suppliers unlike Kubota.

I have a Yanmar digger / excavator and there is a local firm that stock every part imaginable (well it seems so).

They are based quite close to Burton-Waters, alongside the Foss-Dyke so anyone with a Yanmar based engine could try an Agricultural / Plant Yanmar agent for 'base engine parts'

[Calranthe]

1 hour ago, Northernboater said:

Just don't buy an old plastic with an old BMC engine in it, as it will end up costing you as much as the original purchase price in maintenance and repairs.

 

Now this shows your complete ignorance. 

Old plastic boats from the 80's and earlier are built like flexible tanks this was before they realised how little fibreglass they could get away with using, old boats like Kathleen and earlier do not suffer as much from damage like the modern fibreglass because the layers were so thick and even an old BMC can be maintained and work for a very long time as long as you do not do something stupid