Advice needed (not a narrow boat)

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I think the boat must be accurately described too, even with a private sale. Anything in the sales blurb that suggests the engine is in good running order would provide ammunition for a valid claim.

Not that I think the OP should make one. Better to expend his effort fixing the leaks and just get on with boating. Chalk it up to experience. 

 

 

Edit to delete an unnecessary word.

No guarantee is given or implied with regard to specification, but descriptions are given in good faith as could be ascertained at the time of inspection. All second hand boats are sold without warranty. We recommend the use of a marine surveyor to ascertain the condition of your intended purchase.

Caveat Emptor - it is up to the buyer to satisfy themselves that everything is as it should be - either themselves or via a survey. The same 'rules' apply to buying a SH car privately.

[WotEver]

I was asked by a friend to do a bit of maintenance on his boat back in the 80's and I told the owner that the engine (single cylinder Victor) needed a full rebuild or replacement. Shortly thereafter I saw in the paper that he had it up for sale with part of the description including "good engine". We fell out over that. 

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No guarantee is given or implied with regard to specification, but descriptions are given in good faith as could be ascertained at the time of inspection. All second hand boats are sold without warranty. We recommend the use of a marine surveyor to ascertain the condition of your intended purchase.

Caveat Emptor - it is up to the buyer to satisfy themselves that everything is as it should be - either themselves or via a survey. The same 'rules' apply to buying a SH car privately.

 

I disagree. A private seller is not allowed to put outright lies in the product description, e.g. 'engine in good running condition' when it is known to be pishing out oil and diesel and overheating.

'Caveat emptor' applies to points on which the advert is silent.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I disagree. A private seller is not allowed to put outright lies in the product description, e.g. 'engine in good running condition' when it is known to be pishing out oil and diesel and overheating.

'Caveat emptor' applies to points on which the advert is silent.

But when the OP 1st tried the boat it wasn't 'pishing' or it would have been seen on the trials.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But when the OP 1st tried the boat it wasn't 'pishing' or it would have been seen on the trials.

 

This is, I agree, most puzzling how an engine can possibly be fine for the 20 minute trial run then start pouring out fluids from multiple places immediately on completion of the purchase. Maybe the OP didn't actually look at the engine after the trial. Only listened to it.

Is there a link to the text of the advert anywhere? I'm curious to see what it actually says.

[Alan de Enfield]

40 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is, I agree, most puzzling how an engine can possibly be fine for the 20 minute trial run then start pouring out fluids from multiple places immediately on completion of the purchase. Maybe the OP didn't actually look at the engine after the trial. Only listened to it.

Is there a link to the text of the advert anywhere? I'm curious to see what it actually says.

https://bwml.co.uk/brokerage/sm-9359-kathleen/

[MtB]

Hmmm all it says is the engine was serviced in May 2016. Over a year ago.

The boat engine is serviced.
A year later the boat goes on brokerage
The OP tests runs it
All is fine so he buys it
20 minutes later it springs 10 separate fuel leaks (according to the picture), and overheats, and leaks some oil too

Something here really doesn't add up. But what?!

[Peter X]

So the advert says the engine was serviced, but doesn't state it's working well. It isn't, but unfortunately my knowledge of engines is very sketchy. I knew enough to say that it didn't sound like a happy diesel engine or produce much power, and that a 100C temperature reading is worryingly high, then to check that some water was emerging from the cooling system. But not enough to get anywhere near resolving the problem.

Basically our concerns grew gradually as those few miles went by, to the point where we called out RCR, and it was their opinion that there are multiple separate fuel leaks.

Anyway, it was a nice enough day out up to Weston Lock and back, followed by a leisurely night on the boat surrounded by empty boats up for sale. Although I'd got up at 5:30 on Friday ready for my journey north and had an energetic day out, including a long walk when I got lost on the way to the marina, it took a while to get to sleep because that M1 is rather noisy. The change of plan rendered my rail ticket home from Stafford on Monday useless, but I got home slowly but cheaply on good old National Express.

Once the engine's fixed I'm up for another go at this trip, and I'd like to reassure other boaters on the T&M that I have now more or less got the hang of steering a straight-ish line in one of these little plastic boats. It's a bit of a learning experience after a big steel narrowboat, not least because there's a wheel instead of a tiller, and a wall-mounted lever which goes UP for reverse.

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Hmmm all it says is the engine was serviced in May 2016. Over a year ago.

The boat engine is serviced.
A year later the boat goes on brokerage
The OP tests runs it
All is fine so he buys it
20 minutes later it springs 10 separate fuel leaks (according to the picture), and overheats, and leaks some oil too

Something here really doesn't add up. But what?!

Would be totally explainable had it been for sale at Pillings, but Sawley - certainly not easily explained - questions ??????????

[Calranthe]

Okay Engineer spent the day on the boat working on it, he thinks CRR were airing on the side of caution, it has leaks but nothing like the £5 of fuel a day they quoted could happen.

I am inclined to agree the boat only has a 50L fuel tank and unless the fuel indicator is busted we used very little fuel in that run.

He checked all the connections and replaced a few washers, tightened a few places, tomorrow a new temp gauge and he is looking to see if he can find the oil leak but as he says oil level is fine now which means we lost very little on the way back after we redid the oil, the lack of power and issues I am inclined to believe were a result of low oil pressure (as peter will tell you it read 0 for most of the journey up there on the way back after CRR put in some oil it was 20-30 on the gauge and we got some nice power out of it.

some how we lost some oil but everything looks good now the engineer said (no reason to doubt him) that the previous owner only ever had trouble starting the boat it always ran fine and before putting it up for sale that issue was solved with new glo plugs. 

 

If all goes well tomorrow then we will try again on Wednesday, looking forward to doing more locks.

 

[MtB]

On 10/06/2017 at 22:19, Calranthe said:

Okay Engineer spent the day on the boat working on it, he thinks CRR were airing on the side of caution, it has leaks but nothing like the £5 of fuel a day they quoted could happen.

I am inclined to agree the boat only has a 50L fuel tank and unless the fuel indicator is busted we used very little fuel in that run.

He checked all the connections and replaced a few washers, tightened a few places, tomorrow a new temp gauge and he is looking to see if he can find the oil leak but as he says oil level is fine now which means we lost very little on the way back after we redid the oil, the lack of power and issues I am inclined to believe were a result of low oil pressure (as peter will tell you it read 0 for most of the journey up there on the way back after CRR put in some oil it was 20-30 on the gauge and we got some nice power out of it.

some how we lost some oil but everything looks good now the engineer said (no reason to doubt him) that the previous owner only ever had trouble starting the boat it always ran fine and before putting it up for sale that issue was solved with new glo plugs. 

 

If all goes well tomorrow then we will try again on Wednesday, looking forward to doing more locks.

 

 

Hmmmm it is good that the engineer seems to know the boat, but the bit I highlighted is REALLY BAD.

If the engine oil pressure gauge ever reads zero again turn it OFF immediately and pole the boat to the bank. You have been seriously lucky to have avoided serious engine damage. (Assuming you have, that is...)

[Peter X]

We kind of assumed the oil pressure gauge wasn't working... sounds like that was a big mistake. I suppose we just about got away with it?, as the boat made it back to Sawley and sounded rather nicer than it had on the outward journey. However it did still seem to me to be lacking power, so let's see how it goes when this engineer has finished working his magic.

[Calranthe]

I really hope we have avoided it, like Peter said I had checked the oil level the day before and just wrongly assumed the oil pressure gauge was not working.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, Calranthe said:

wrongly assumed the oil pressure gauge was not working

A tip for life - but particularly for boating :

Never 'assume' the problem has the best cause, always assume it is the worst possible cause - you will then take the best possible action to avoid making the situation worse - if you subsequently find that it was a 'minor' problem then you will be pleasantly surprised at the cost of the repair.

 

In this case - continuing to run the engine with zero oil pressure could have resulted in many, many £1000s of cost to rebuild or replace the engine.

Stop the engine, get to 'the bank', tie up and start to investigate.

Check the dip-stick - if there is oil at the correct level then its not oil-loss causing low pressure.

Take of the filler cap and look to see if - whatever you can see - is covered in oil.

Start engine and look down the filler cap - you may see / feel a small mist of oil - if so there is oil circulating.

And so on

Take a logical course of actions to 'problem solve' and you may well be 'right' and the gauge is faulty - however just guessing is not a good idea.

[Momac]

This mornings thoughts....

If a sterndrive boat overheats , particularly on a canal,  it may be something picked up on the cooling water  intake. Something like a plastic bag.  . Stopping the engine and the obstruction can fall off.

All then all returns to normal. 

Carrying on with the overheating engine may have cooked the oil and caused other damage . 

Have the cooling system checked .  And, as a minimum , the raw water pump impeller should be renewed as it too will have overheated and may be damaged. The raw water pump should remain cool with the engine running.

Perhaps the fuel leakage is a separate matter.

 

 

 

[MtB]

On 10/06/2017 at 23:24, Calranthe said:

I really hope we have avoided it, like Peter said I had checked the oil level the day before and just wrongly assumed the oil pressure gauge was not working.

 

 

So just to clarify, when you had your pre-purchase 20 minute cruise and all seemed well, did you notice whether or not the oil pressure gauge was working? 

And did you look at the engine after the test cruise and see that it was it all nice and clean and free from diesel leaks, or did you only get to inspect it prior to the test cruise?

And on the day you checked the oil before leaving, did you start and warm up the engine before checking the dip stick? Was it still clean and free from diesel leaks like in your photo? (When was the photo taken?)

 

 

 

 

 

[Calranthe]

35 minutes ago, MartynG said:

This mornings thoughts....

If a sterndrive boat overheats , particularly on a canal,  it may be something picked up on the cooling water  intake. Something like a plastic bag.  . Stopping the engine and the obstruction can fall off.

All then all returns to normal. 

Carrying on with the overheating engine may have cooked the oil and caused other damage . 

Have the cooling system checked .  And, as a minimum , the raw water pump impeller should be renewed as it too will have overheated and may be damaged. The raw water pump should remain cool with the engine running.

Perhaps the fuel leakage is a separate matter.

 

 

 

First thing we did was test the cooling system it is working fine CRR also checked it.

 

Left a message withe engineer just to check the impeller to be on the safe side.

 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Calranthe

[Calranthe]

37 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So just to clarify, when you had your pre-purchase 20 minute cruise and all seemed well, did you notice whether or not the oil pressure gauge was working? 

And did you look at the engine after the test cruise and see that it was it all nice and clean and free from diesel leaks, or did you only get to inspect it prior to the test cruise?

And on the day you checked the oil before leaving, did you start and warm up the engine before checking the dip stick? Was it still clean and free from diesel leaks like in your photo? (When was the photo taken?)

 

 

 

 

 

I can not be certain on the gauge, engine looked fine after the 20 minute trial.

on the day we checked the oil the engine was not running as we had the fuel pipe issue.

photo's were taken after the trial on that day no leaks.

 

Like we explained in previous posts the metal fuel pipe had a crease in it which meant less fuel going to the engine which is why we had no leaks.

The fuel pipe is in a position where if you do not know what to do or how to remove the cover it could drop down and hit the pipe (lid is quite heavy) over time this lowly bends the pipe and forms a crease which slowly restricts the fuel and it got to the point the engine was starved we now know the issue and can avoid it but for weeks or months that pipe was delivering less than full potential.

Once the new fuel pipe was installed and thus the flow of fuel to the engine at 100% which was one day before we left on our trip that would explain why then any not 100% done seals/washers would show up only then.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Calranthe

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

.......photo's were taken after the trial on that day no leaks.

Once the new fuel pipe was installed and thus the flow of fuel to the engine at 100% which was one day before we left on our trip that would explain why then any not 100% done seals/washers would show up only then.

Here lies the answer.

The engineer (I use the term loosely) replaced the damaged fuel pipe, air got into the system and it required bleeding. All joints loosened and system bled. Engineer went for lunch / fag-break, / tea break and forgot to return an tighten everything up.

you now have options :

1) Get the same enginer back in to rectify his mistakes

2) Get someone who will do a 'proper job'

3) Try DIY - tighten (but not overtighten) every joint in the fuel line and see what happens.

 

The crease in the fuel pipe and reduced flow is NOT the reason why it did not leak - it leaks because the engineer loosened all the joints.

 

 

[Calranthe]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Here lies the answer.

The engineer (I use the term loosely) replaced the damaged fuel pipe, air got into the system and it required bleeding. All joints loosened and system bled. Engineer went for lunch / fag-break, / tea break and forgot to return an tighten everything up.

you now have options :

1) Get the same enginer back in to rectify his mistakes

2) Get someone who will do a 'proper job'

3) Try DIY - tighten (but not overtighten) every joint in the fuel line and see what happens.

 

The crease in the fuel pipe and reduced flow is NOT the reason why it did not leak - it leaks because the engineer loosened all the joints.

 

 

What I am saying is the leaks did not show up until the fuel line was fixed and I highly doubt as the engineer is quite well regarded does a lot of work for the brokerage at sawley marina that he would have just wandered off and forgot about it.

[MtB]

 

On 11/06/2017 at 10:54, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The crease in the fuel pipe and reduced flow is NOT the reason why it did not leak - it leaks because the engineer loosened all the joints.

 

 

I agree with your hypothesis here.

Calranthe seems wedded to the belief that the kink reduced the fuel system pressure to zero and fixing the kink restored system pressure and exposed the leaks. This is simply not a credible explanation and does not hold water (or diesel) in my opinion. 

Your explanation certainly fits all the facts.

 

 

Edit to remove duplicate quote.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Calranthe]

I may not know a lot about boats are you saying that the following idea is impossible

Reduction in fuel amount to the engine say 30-50% would have no affect on how much fuel is in the engine and how much excess fuel not used is in the system and thus available to exit via leaks ?

Instead you want to trash an engineer without even knowing who he is are you both 100% certain that your theory is correct because if you are and can back this up with some credence then I will have words with him but if this is just assumption and supposition based on horror stories about engineers let me know.

[croftie]

32 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

I may not know a lot about boats are you saying that the following idea is impossible

Reduction in fuel amount to the engine say 30-50% would have no affect on how much fuel is in the engine and how much excess fuel not used is in the system and thus available to exit via leaks ?

Instead you want to trash an engineer without even knowing who he is are you both 100% certain that your theory is correct because if you are and can back this up with some credence then I will have words with him but if this is just assumption and supposition based on horror stories about engineers let me know.

As far as I can see there was no leaks at the time if your initial test. I suspect the crimped pipe that restricted flow was pre pump therefore suction rather than pressure. Lets assume the restriction resulted in a 30% flow, still enough to supply fuel to the pump and run the engine at "reasonable revs". No leak at either the injectors (high pressure) or fuel return (low pressure).

 

Now could it be that you or the broker after the test run dropped the lid (not knowing you have to be careful) and caused the pre pump pipe to tottaly close? Result now a none start.

New pre pump pipe fitted and fuel system bleed. Now we have leaks not only at injectors (HP) but even at filter fuel return to tank (LP). Conclusion - unions not tightened up correctly after bleeding.

[bizzard]

Once air is introduced into the fuel system and rotory injection pump on those engines it can be a devil to get rid off. Usually the slightest bit of air in those pumps and the engine probably wouldn't start and run. Consequently most of the pipe connections including the injector feeds would probably have been slackened to erradicate the air before it started.  They can be a right bleeder.

Edited June 11, 2017 by bizzard

[cuthound]

A crimped fuel pipe that doesn't completely restrict fuel flow will only influence engine performance at higher loads when greater amounts of fuel are required. At idle and lower engine loads it will not have any affect. 

Replacing the damaged pipe must introduce air into the fuel system, and unless the fuel system is designed to be self bleeding, will need to be bled by opening bleed points and injectors to remove the air.