Serious Incident - Shropshire Union Nr Chester 11/03/2015

[DaveC]

Sod the p^ssed bint, pity the poor ones whose boats were was damaged.

I think I should make clear that the "good lady" I referred to in post 61 was NOT the ' p^ssed bint' but one NC of this forum.

 

Dave

[Tony Brooks]

 

Yes, the boater last Weds clearly infringed the by-laws, particularly para 44. There's not much of a fine, however, and no means of endorsing a license or removing it, or applying criminal penalties of the sort that would deter someone so reckless.

 

I think there is - if anyone is sufficiently motivated to enforce them.

 

As a result of the Bow Bells disaster in London I am sure there is now a blood alcohol limit for those in charge of vessels and as it appliers across the board to small and large infringing it as in this case is likely to have potentially serious consequences. I suspect a prison sentence COULD be given.

 

Of course that supposes the local Constabulary and CPS know the law and are willing to apply it.

 

See: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/20/contents Looks like she could be looking at up to two years inside.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Tony Brooks

[madcat]

Not much to add execept to say I'm sorry for the people who were affected by this , it's a nasty horrible thing to happen . It's rare enough not to require extra legislation however.

 

I can't imagine why the person involved felt the need to do this, it's a pretty irrational thing to do.

 

In the end it's back to the old truth that drink makes monkeys of us all . Some monkeys hold their drink quite capably and others don't.

[Krooko]

 

Since I was 18 years old I have realised that all anybody wants to do is take what was left of the little freedom I had left away. Now 44 years later and I have now practically non left you come along and want to take what little is left away. After 50 years of boating you first want to compell me to spend my money and get a licence to do what I've been doing quite succesfully for the past 50 odd years.

Is there water in the canals of Mars?

 

That's exactly my point Mr Evans, we don't live in the world of 50 years ago anymore. We live in a world of instant gratification unfortunately and people tend not to think before they do things. And freedom? Alcohol is surely a form of slavery and abstinence a form of freedom - for some? I drive my car or bike most days, free of alcohol and its trappings, in perfect freedom - provided that i respect other road users and pedestrians. What is one person's freedom is another's entrapment - it's a personal thing. That said, a tiny shlup of red wine with dinner will still keep most people under the legal limit - it's a judgment call.

[Victor Vectis]

 

That's exactly my point Mr Evans, we don't live in the world of 50 years ago anymore. We live in a world of instant gratification unfortunately and people tend not to think before they do things. And freedom? Alcohol is surely a form of slavery and abstinence a form of freedom - for some? I drive my car or bike most days, free of alcohol and its trappings, in perfect freedom - provided that i respect other road users and pedestrians. What is one person's freedom is another's entrapment - it's a personal thing. That said, a tiny shlup of red wine with dinner will still keep most people under the legal limit - it's a judgment call.

Good grief! Now we have the band of hope jumping aboard.

 

(Complete with jaffa jackets and flat hats)

[bassplayer]

 

We live in a world of instant gratification unfortunately...

It's certainly a world of control freaks, had anyone watched Dragons Den?

[madcat]

Eek , much as I like my cup of tea I'm a beer fairy at heart with the occasional drift into scrumpy/ battery acid drinking.

[furnessvale]

 

I think there is - if anyone is sufficiently motivated to enforce them.

 

As a result of the Bow Bells disaster in London I am sure there is now a blood alcohol limit for those in charge of vessels and as it appliers across the board to small and large infringing it as in this case is likely to have potentially serious consequences. I suspect a prison sentence COULD be given.

 

Of course that supposes the local Constabulary and CPS know the law and are willing to apply it.

 

See: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/20/contents Looks like she could be looking at up to two years inside.

Only applies to commercial vessels such as your friendly neighbourhood coal boat or a restaurant boat.

 

The section covering private vessels was never enacted.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Emerald Fox]

"Have you been hit by another boat in the last three years?"

 

"you could be entitled to compesasion"

 

Pished again?

 

Jos otat, älä aja!

Jos ajat, älä ota!

(If you take don't drive!
If you drive, don't take!)

[madcat]

Interesting , does that mean the person with a low intensity trading licence selling crafts etc is covered by this legislation?

[tree monkey]

 

Since I was 18 years old I have realised that all anybody wants to do is take what was left of the little freedom I had left away. Now 44 years later and I have now practically non left you come along and want to take what little is left away. After 50 years of boating you first want to compell me to spend my money and get a licence to do what I've been doing quite succesfully for the past 50 odd years.

Is there water in the canals of Mars?

☺ it's not just me thinking this then?

[madcat]

No not just you two , me as well .

[bassplayer]

...I'm too young to know...Ok...yes me too!

[furnessvale]

Interesting , does that mean the person with a low intensity trading licence selling crafts etc is covered by this legislation?

I don't know for certain, but if I held such a licence I would make it my business to find out.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Ray T]

 

Thanks Matty,

 

In response, i woudl say that the DVLA system is already here, and funded by both central government and the licensing levies that apply. The system works, which is why we keep it. I did my Helmsman license in a day, and it wasn't expensive, certainly not compared to the cost of a boat, or even hiring a boat,

K

 

Sorry I am confused here. What do you mean by a "Helmsmans license" please?

 

I have various "Certificates of Competence" from the RYA including my "Inland Helmsman's" certificate and my "Yachmaster Offshore." As far as I am aware neither of these licence me to do anything. In fact the Yachmaster certificate states " This certificate in no way authorises the holder to go to sea as Master of any Ship or Vessel which is required by Law to carry Certificated Officers."

 

In reality all my certificates "say" is that I met the required standard on the day of the test.

 

Under the paragraph "Significance of Certificates" in the RYA G15/78 booklet it states:

 

"A Certificate supported by evidence of relevant experience is a much better guide to a yachtman's ability to sail a particular type of boat. For this reason certificate holders are encouraged to continue to maintain their log of their personal experience even when they hold all the certificates applicable to the type of sailing in which they participate."

Edited March 17, 2015 by Ray T

[alan_fincher]

I have a Helmsman license, and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating, i observe try to observe a basic standard of care and respect for other boaters.

 

As others have said, what do you mean by "Helmsman license" exactly ?

[The Pipe]

 

☺ it's not just me thinking this then?

No. The number of things I cannot do now from 40 years ago is very large.

And a quote from Hitler.

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”

Actually for Hitler substitute the Labour part they have taken most.

[churchward]

 

No. The number of things I cannot do now from 40 years ago is very large.

And a quote from Hitler.

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”

Actually for Hitler substitute the Labour part they have taken most.

Oh dear that is flying close to the wind and Godwin's law.

 

C'mon folks we can do better than this surely we are talking about a boating incident (although a serious one) not some kind of evil despot.

[bassplayer]

 

No. The number of things I cannot do now from 40 years ago is very large.

And a quote from Hitler.

The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.

Actually for Hitler substitute the Labour part they have taken most.

I can see something true in this but I don't think it's got anything to with Labour or any other puppet party.

[Graham Davis]

There are several issues at play in terms of what happened last Wednesday, including, but not restricted to, the following:

 

(i) the attitude of people being responsible and respecting other people has gone for good. In the past generally people in the UK played by the rules and deferred to others with more life / work experience and skills. The individual concerned has taken advantage of this overly liberal system and, if it's happened once, it could happen again. We therefore need to think about introducing an efficient system of regulation to try and stop it recurring, or at least try and introduce some sanctions.

ARE YOU PROPOSING THAT WE SHOULD ALL BE CONTROLLED IN EVERYTHING WE DO?

 

(ii) a system of licenses and exams to demonstrate competence in boating must be introduced, with points systems and disqualification. I have a Helmsman license, and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating, i observe try to observe a basic standard of care and respect for other boaters. One can easily learn the art of keeping a boat steady and under control after taking qualified instruction, or know when it's to hazardous to cruise at all due to weather etc. The driving license has not killed car transport, or car hire companies, and neither would it shut down the boat hire industry. But the system must be straighforward and flexible. people still commit motoring offences, but they are held accountable for doing so, with fines, points deductions and disqualification.

WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THE HOLIDAY BOAT RENTERS, DAY BOAT USERS AND EVEN SHARE BOAT OWNERS?

WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR AND ADMINISTER THIS SYSTEM?

WHO IS GOING TO DO THE TRAINING AND EXAMINATION?

ME-THINKS YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT THIS THROUGH!!

 

(iii) alcohol is a metabolic poison. it's easy to identify what is a safe limit for boating - perhaps either under 60mg or 80mg per 100 ml of blood, just as for driving a car or other vehicle. Boating alcohol-free thus far has not troubled me at all. With modern diesel engines and thick steel plated heavy boats, one can do a lot of damage to people, property wildlife and infrastructure.

DEFINE SAFE LIMIT?

WE HAVE A DRIVING LIMIT AND I HAVE AN EVEN LOWER LIMIT FOR WORK, AS DO MANY OTHERS; WHICH IS IT TO BE?

 

(iv) mental health issues there may be. I believe that GPs are able to remove driving licenses from people who pose a risk to others, based on a health history or incidents - strokes etc. until health is restored and this could apply to cruising licenses just as easily.

CAN THEY? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME PROOF OF THAT ASSERTION.

 

There's no need to reinvent the wheel therefore - the driving license system is already here and covers a variety of vehicle classes. A large number of points increases insurance premiums.

 

I'm new to boating and I'm sorry if these issues have been debated before on the forum. Licenses won't stop infringements, but they would provide an incentive to keep to the straight and narrow,

rant over!

 

Krooko

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's exactly my point Mr Evans, we don't live in the world of 50 years ago anymore. We live in a world of instant gratification unfortunately and people tend not to think before they do things. And freedom? Alcohol is surely a form of slavery and abstinence a form of freedom - for some? I drive my car or bike most days, free of alcohol and its trappings, in perfect freedom - provided that i respect other road users and pedestrians. What is one person's freedom is another's entrapment - it's a personal thing. That said, a tiny shlup of red wine with dinner will still keep most people under the legal limit - it's a judgment call.

 

Really??

A presumptuous comment!!

[Tony Brooks]

Only applies to commercial vessels such as your friendly neighbourhood coal boat or a restaurant boat.

 

The section covering private vessels was never enacted.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

I hope that you are correct but section 80 specifically refers to "non professionals".

[David Mack]

The drink boating legisltion exists but has only been brought into effect for those navigating a boat in the course of work. The provisions for leisure boaters have not (yet) been implemented. As far as I know the reasons for this include difficulty in defining who is or is not involved in navigating when there are no cearly defined boundaries between 'crew' and 'passengers', the lack of evidence of a significant level of problems caused by over-the-limit leisure boaters and the fact that the main type of craft involved in such incidents as there have been -jet skis - would not be covered anyway as these don't apparently fall within the legal definition of boats.

[furnessvale]

 

I hope that you are correct but section 80 specifically refers to "non professionals".

A lot of legislation is composed of two parts. An Act of Parliament and then a Statutory Instrument or similar which brings various parts of the Act into use.

 

So far as drink driving with boats goes, the bit about non professional boaters has never been brought into use.

 

(My terminology is probably up the chute but you get my drift)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[craftycarper]

I thought there was a criminal offence, of being drunk in charge of any mechanically propelled vehicle, ie mobility scooters, bikes and probably boats ?

[Guest]

I thought there was a criminal offence, of being drunk in charge of any mechanically propelled vehicle, ie mobility scooters, bikes and probably boats ?

Doesn't even have to be mechanical, A guy by us got done for being drunk in charge of a horse (and cart) some years ago.