number of boats on the system going up or down

[kevinl]

I read in a comment on Narrowboat World that C&RT have a problem, that the number of boats on the system has gone down, thus a reduction in their income. This was in a reader's comment not an article, is it true or just a bit of ill informed gossip? I can't find any up to date figures on it?

 

K

[bizzard]

With all the floods surely the number of boats have risen.

[Dyad]

I read in a comment on Narrowboat World that C&RT have a problem, that the number of boats on the system has gone down, thus a reduction in their income. This was in a reader's comment not an article, is it true or just a bit of ill informed gossip? I can't find any up to date figures on it?

 

K

 

 

I would say it ebb and flows

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I read in a comment on Narrowboat World that C&RT have a problem, that the number of boats on the system has gone down, thus a reduction in their income. This was in a reader's comment not an article, is it true or just a bit of ill informed gossip? I can't find any up to date figures on it?

 

K

 

 

BW quote number of long term licences issued in annual reports with the latest showing that the number issued has fallen slightly after significant growth in previous years.

 

This did not affect licence income which rose from £17m (2010/11) to £17.4m (2011/12) due to licence fee increases and a reduction in evasion rates.

 

I would expect a larger drop in licences issued this year as evasion rates are increasing and boat numbers declining.

 

****Edited to add that licence income only represents half of CaRT's gross income attributable to boaters

Edited November 27, 2012 by Allan(nb Albert)

[koukouvagia]

Just curious. Is the drop in licences because boats are being scrapped, or is it because they are being removed to non CaRT waters or is the reason that many more boaters are choosing to become cc-ers and the fall in numbers simply reflects this change?

 

 

[Martin Megson]

Just curious. Is the drop in licences because boats are being scrapped, or is it because they are being removed to non CaRT waters or is the reason that many more boaters are choosing to become cc-ers and the fall in numbers simply reflects this change?

 

I can't answer the question but would just like to clarify that CC-ers still require a licence. They don't have to pay mooring fees and while this could affect CaRTs income that would be from mooring fees which is a separate income stream.

 

Martin

[adam1uk]

Just curious. Is the drop in licences because boats are being scrapped, or is it because they are being removed to non CaRT waters or is the reason that many more boaters are choosing to become cc-ers and the fall in numbers simply reflects this change?

 

CC-ers still need a licence, so why would people changing their status have any impact on the figures?

[NB Lola]

Demand elasticity applies if your into economics.

 

As income is squeezed choices are made and it appears the net impact is that a narrowboat is not a luxury item and, as a result, the usual exits from having a narrowboat are not matched or exceeded by people coming in.

 

This is complicated by the sometimes naive view that boat living is cheaper than land living.

 

Sorry, bit weak as I have no evidence upon which to prove the above assumptions

Edited November 27, 2012 by NB Lola

[larkshall]

With all the floods surely the number of boats have risen.

 

 

Snigger....

[koukouvagia]

CC-ers still need a licence, so why would people changing their status have any impact on the figures?

 

Yes, I quite agree. However, I was just musing on Allan(nb Albert)'s comment that the number of "long term licences" had diminished. I took this to refer to long term mooring permits. A reduction in these numbers would certainly affect CaRT's income. Quite willing to be corrected, though.

 

 

[Gibbo]

As income is squeezed choices are made and it appears the net impact is that a narrowboat is not a luxury item and, as a result, the usual exits from having a narrowboat are not matched or exceeded by people coming in.

 

I've now read that 6 times and still can't work it out.

 

Have you put a wrong word in or something?

[NB Lola]

Gibbo

 

More people leaving the cut than coming in, apols for any confusion, daughters learning economics and I am re-learning it

[Gibbo]

Gibbo

 

More people leaving the cut than coming in, apols for any confusion, daughters learning economics and I am re-learning it

 

So a narrowboat is a luxury item? Your post says it's not.

[NB Lola]

In demand elasticity a luxury item retains demand at a certain level, narrowboat owning does not make it to that level where irrespective of cost demand remains stable.

 

Luxury yachts are still selling at same rates despite the recession

 

Does that help or confuse?

[Gibbo]

Does that help or confuse?

 

Neither

[johnmck]

I think for many, a boat is a luxury item. As such, new boat sales must be suffering and resulting in a slowing or with no increase on overall numbers. The economic climate and the weather this year seems to have reduced the numbers actually moving. On our travels this year we oft commented upon the lack of boat movement, even on popular canals like the Llangollen. Whilst on the L & L there were days when we saw ner a boat moving and this was at the height of the season.

[BlueStringPudding]

Just curious. Is the drop in licences because boats are being scrapped, or is it because they are being removed to non CaRT waters or is the reason that many more boaters are choosing to become cc-ers and the fall in numbers simply reflects this change?

 

The license that a CCer pays for and the license that a boat owner on a rented mooring pays for, are the same. So I'm not sure why you think becoming a CCer would affect CaRT's license income?

 

Yes, I quite agree. However, I was just musing on Allan(nb Albert)'s comment that the number of "long term licences" had diminished. I took this to refer to long term mooring permits. A reduction in these numbers would certainly affect CaRT's income. Quite willing to be corrected, though.

 

I took Allan's mention of "long term licenses" to still mean licenses, not mooring rent, as that's not a license. I would consider a short term license to be anything less than a year.

[alan_fincher]

Can anyone explain if "boat numbers are decreasing", where they are ending up?

 

One sees, or hears of, very few being scrapped, although clearly a few are.

 

The number of new ones arriving may have slowed, but it has hardly halted.

 

The most likely explanation for a fall in boat numbers would then seem to be that more are leaving CRT waters.

 

But does anybody actually know the facts on this?

 

I would expect a larger drop in licences issued this year as evasion rates are increasing and boat numbers declining.

Always looking for a headline!

 

I believe the latest number shows half a percent, but as it doesn't I think exactly compare like with like, it may be too early to genuinely predict a return to the bad old days!

Edited November 27, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Tonka]

Boat numbers are increasing but the licensed boats are reducing which is what CR&T counts and this trend will continue untill someone starts to crush boats that are unlicensed. We do it to cars so why not boats.

[Guest]

I ponder (but can't evidence) that the impact of of austerity measures and downsizing which leads to redundancies can partly offset the negative impact of a recession on the boat market.

 

By this I mean it often results in people making pretty drastic decisions and for those lucky enough to escape with enough dosh to fund or part fund a boat purchase they then are propelled into a purchase that they may possibly would never have made in the first place or at least not for many years hence.

[alan_fincher]

Boat numbers are increasing but the licensed boats are reducing which is what CR&T counts and this trend will continue untill someone starts to crush boats that are unlicensed. We do it to cars so why not boats.

Good argument creating stuff, but do you have evidence to support it.

 

BW/CRT count both don't they ?

 

They record both boats they think they have on the system, and those they believed are licenced. How can they provide a figure for unlicenced boats / evasion rates per area, if they are not comparing the number of licences issued to at least what they claim to be the number of boats present?

 

Now maybe their counts are not reliable, but how are you able to know the current numbers of boats on their waters, if you are claiming that either they do not, or do not wish to tell us?

[MtB]

Can anyone explain if "boat numbers are decreasing", where they are ending up?

 

One sees, or hears of, very few being scrapped, although clearly a few are.

 

The number of new ones arriving may have slowed, but it has hardly halted.

 

The most likely explanation for a fall in boat numbers would then seem to be that more are leaving CRT waters.

 

But does anybody actually know the facts on this?

 

I have puzzled over this too for ages. NBs never seem to be scrapped no matter how bad the get. For example trhe burned out boat boat which PJ gallantly raised only the other day seems a total write-off and a prime candidate for scrapping yet someone just paid over £4k for it on eBay. I cant imagine they want it for just the engine. Or is scrap steel really worth that much nowadays?

 

It seems highly unlikely to me that boats are a being removed from CRT waters to cheaper waters in significant numbers. Where are these cheaper waters anyway? The Thames certainly isn't cheaper and I doubt the Wey is. Are there any sizable waterways oop north that CRT don't control? Are they substantially cheaper?

 

The most obvious explanation for licence numbers falling would be that CRT are mistaken and licence evasion is on the rise. How do they check a boat has been removed from CRT waters when the owner fails to renew? Especially a CCer with no land address? My money is on them being unable to.

 

A further place for all the newly unlicenced boats to be would be on the bank in the boatyards. I see a few around but this can't really be the answer as the yards will be charging hard standing rent. I'm fairly sure if a boat owner falls on hard times and cannot afford the boat, they are more likely to decide to sell it than pay to store on on the bank for a bit.

 

MtB

[jenlyn]

Boat numbers are increasing but the licensed boats are reducing which is what CR&T counts and this trend will continue untill someone starts to crush boats that are unlicensed. We do it to cars so why not boats.

Figures for that, anything you can point me to that I can use as evidence? Would be grateful.

 

I have puzzled over this too for ages. NBs never seem to be scrapped no matter how bad the get. For example trhe burned out boat boat which PJ gallantly raised only the other day seems a total write-off and a prime candidate for scrapping yet someone just paid over £4k for it on eBay. I cant imagine they want it for just the engine. Or is scrap steel really worth that much nowadays?

 

It seems highly unlikely to me that boats are a being removed from CRT waters to cheaper waters in significant numbers. Where are these cheaper waters anyway? The Thames certainly isn't cheaper and I doubt the Wey is. Are there any sizable waterways oop north that CRT don't control? Are they substantially cheaper?

 

The most obvious explanation for licence numbers falling would be that CRT are mistaken and licence evasion is on the rise. How do they check a boat has been removed from CRT waters when the owner fails to renew? Especially a CCer with no land address? My money is on them being unable to.

 

A further place for all the newly unlicenced boats to be would be on the bank in the boatyards. I see a few around but this can't really be the answer as the yards will be charging hard standing rent. I'm fairly sure if a boat owner falls on hard times and cannot afford the boat, they are more likely to decide to sell it than pay to store on on the bank for a bit.

 

MtB

 

Are there still marinas where you can moor without needing a license?

[Tonka]

The evidence is there and we all see it when cruising. The boats with out of licenses out of date or no licence are increasing. When do CR&T count them. Where do you actually see people counting. Braunston, Cowroast ????

[magnetman]

Figures for that, anything you can point me to that I can use as evidence? Would be grateful.

 

 

 

Are there still marinas where you can moor without needing a license?

 

 

Whilton is one apparently