number of boats on the system going up or down

[jenlyn]

The evidence is there and we all see it when cruising. The boats with out of licenses out of date or no licence are increasing. When do CR&T count them. Where do you actually see people counting. Braunston, Cowroast ????

I couldn't honestly say I would notice an increase in license evasion through cruising?????

 

Whilton is one apparently

I believe there are several on the system, perhaps that's where the boats are going.

[Guest]

The evidence is there and we all see it when cruising. The boats with out of licenses out of date or no licence are increasing. When do CR&T count them. Where do you actually see people counting. Braunston, Cowroast ????

 

A boat not displaying a current licence is not necessarily an unlicensed boat though...

 

It's not a reliable indicator.

 

Are there still marinas where you can moor without needing a license?

 

Yes -

 

I believe from memory there is such a spot on the Atherstone flight.

[twbm]

In demand elasticity a luxury item retains demand at a certain level, narrowboat owning does not make it to that level where irrespective of cost demand remains stable.

 

Luxury yachts are still selling at same rates despite the recession

 

Does that help or confuse?

 

i.e. The very rich aren't affected by the recession. (Although the exhibitors at Southampton Boatshow weren't flashing any corporate credit cards this year).

[magnetman]

Maybe there are loads of shiny boats in marinas which have not had licenses renewed but money still coming in from moorings so they aren't an enforcement priority

[bottle]

The evidence is there and we all see it when cruising. The boats with out of licenses out of date or no licence are increasing. When do CR&T count them. Where do you actually see people counting. Braunston, Cowroast ????

 

This proves nothing, other than they may have failed to put the new one up. We ran for over a month with an 'out of date' licence because we could not get the new one from 'home'

 

 

You do not see them but they are out there, where we are moored at the moment the towpath talk is of a patrol officer that is very strict. Those that have abused have had knocks on their boats and informed to move on.

 

ps. the abusers were the ones moaning.

Edited November 27, 2012 by bottle

[MtB]

You do not see them but they are out there, where we are moored at the moment the towpath talk is of a patrol officer that is very strict. Those that have abused have had knocks on their boats and informed to move on.

 

Surely telling unlicenced boats to 'move on' is the very worst thing a CRT patrol officer should be doing. How does that help reduce licence evasion?

 

Surely they should be prevented from using the canal until properly licenced. I've no idea how though. It just seems a more logical response than shoeing them away.

 

MtB

 

Are there still marinas where you can moor without needing a license?

 

Ashwood Marina is another.

 

There is a waiting list to get in though, probably due to it being a place that needs no licence!

[bottle]

Surely telling unlicenced boats to 'move on' is the very worst thing a CRT patrol officer should be doing. How does that help reduce licence evasion?

 

Surely they should be prevented from using the canal until properly licenced. I've no idea how though. It just seems a more logical response than shoeing them away.

 

MtB

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SNIP

 

Mike

 

You misunderstood my post or perhaps it was the way I put it, the abuse was overstaying, not licence evasion. (he does check licences as well though)

[Albion]

I have puzzled over this too for ages. NBs never seem to be scrapped no matter how bad the get. For example trhe burned out boat boat which PJ gallantly raised only the other day seems a total write-off and a prime candidate for scrapping yet someone just paid over £4k for it on eBay. I cant imagine they want it for just the engine. Or is scrap steel really worth that much nowadays?

 

It seems highly unlikely to me that boats are a being removed from CRT waters to cheaper waters in significant numbers. Where are these cheaper waters anyway? The Thames certainly isn't cheaper and I doubt the Wey is. Are there any sizable waterways oop north that CRT don't control? Are they substantially cheaper?

 

The most obvious explanation for licence numbers falling would be that CRT are mistaken and licence evasion is on the rise. How do they check a boat has been removed from CRT waters when the owner fails to renew? Especially a CCer with no land address? My money is on them being unable to.

 

A further place for all the newly unlicenced boats to be would be on the bank in the boatyards. I see a few around but this can't really be the answer as the yards will be charging hard standing rent. I'm fairly sure if a boat owner falls on hard times and cannot afford the boat, they are more likely to decide to sell it than pay to store on on the bank for a bit.

 

MtB

I agree entirely. The only way, in theory, that boat numbers are truly reducing would be that the rate of attrition is greater than the rate of build.

Boat builders are still producing boats otherwise all boat builders would have closed down so the rate of removal (from licensed waters) has to be greater than that. What does that leave? Scrappage, removal to non-C&RT waters, removal to bankside or private water marinas.

Scrappage - you hardly ever hear of a boat being scrapped as MtB has said and, even if it were, the scrappage rate would have to be noticeable if it were to exceed the rate that new boats are being built. If that were the case then I would have thought that you'd see firms advertising 'Wanted old nbs for scrap'.

Removal to non-C&RT waters - possible but surely the numbers would then be increasing on those waters to such an extent that you would see comments about it on sites such as this. Similarly if they were being exported to continental waters.

Removal to bankside - I don't think that there is enough room for this and also most yards charge for bank space so the cost savings of going bankside are not total.

Private water marinas - surely there aren't enough of these to cater for the supposed numbers leaving?

 

That tends to leave us with an explanation that the number of unlicensed boats is increasing despite C&RT's claims to the contrary.

It's all a bit of a puzzle.

Roger

[magnetman]

Or a spreadsheet error

[koukouvagia]

 

A further place for all the newly unlicenced boats to be would be on the bank in the boatyards. I see a few around but this can't really be the answer as the yards will be charging hard standing rent. I'm fairly sure if a boat owner falls on hard times and cannot afford the boat, they are more likely to decide to sell it than pay to store on on the bank for a bit.

 

 

That has certainly happened in one case locally. A long term ignorer and flouter of cc rules was told to move into a marina if he wanted to stay in the same place, but chose instead to go onto hard standing at a nearby yard. All he has to pay now is a relatively small monthly rent, which is offset by not having to buy a licence. But since he never moved when he was on the cut, I don't suppose it's much of a hardship or change in life style.

 

 

 

[Dekazer]

Demand elasticity applies if your into economics.

 

As income is squeezed choices are made and it appears the net impact is that a narrowboat is not a luxury item and, as a result, the usual exits from having a narrowboat are not matched or exceeded by people coming in.

 

This is complicated by the sometimes naive view that boat living is cheaper than land living.

 

Sorry, bit weak as I have no evidence upon which to prove the above assumptions

 

It's a bit more nuanced than that. Price elasticity of demand applies to all goods - there's a formula that can be applied to derive a score. Some goods are price inelastic, meaning that the price can rise and rise, but demand will hardly fall. Cigarettes are pretty price inelastic, as is petrol. Things tend to be price inelastic if there aren't very good substitutes, and if people perceive that they need the item. It can get more sophisticated (of course). Cigarettes as a whole aren't very elastic, because they're addictive, but a brand (e.g. Marlboro) would be more elastic if people are willing to change to a cheaper brand (e.g. Mayfair) when the price of Marlboros increases.

 

I suspect that applying PED to 'boats' is tricky, because it's too large a category. 'Boats' includes GRP cruisers, rowing skiffs, slipper launches, narrowboats, dutch barges etc.. Narrowboats come in very expensive and very cheap versions, big and small, and they have varying additional costs, and they can be used as a home and as a leisure item.

 

I would have a hunch that fewer people buy leisure boats when times are hard but, in the grand scheme of things, narrowboats are a cheaper leisure item than a holiday home, so maybe the poorer people sell their leisure boats to rich people who have sold their holiday homes

[alan_fincher]

The evidence is there and we all see it when cruising. The boats with out of licenses out of date or no licence are increasing.

Ah, good reliable information not in doubt, then!

 

Scrappage - you hardly ever hear of a boat being scrapped as MtB has said and, even if it were, the scrappage rate would have to be noticeable if it were to exceed the rate that new boats are being built. If that were the case then I would have thought that you'd see firms advertising 'Wanted old nbs for scrap'.

Is it possible that in a small degree we are falling into the trap of thinking "steel narrow boat"?

 

Clearly we know from history and the number of sad pictures on here that there is an ever dwindling number of wooden boats.

 

Also the further North I travel, the more I am surprised by how much the percentage of fibreglass boats rises.

 

In the South we see very few, as a fraction of the overall total, but get up North, and you sometimes get lines and lines of them. Are perhaps more of these scrapped as being life expired than we tend to think about? Certainly one occasionally sees GRP graveyards with a number of sunken and abandoned boats that probably nobody is ever going to take on.

[Albion]

 

Is it possible that in a small degree we are falling into the trap of thinking "steel narrow boat"?

 

Clearly we know from history and the number of sad pictures on here that there is an ever dwindling number of wooden boats.

 

Also the further North I travel, the more I am surprised by how much the percentage of fibreglass boats rises.

 

In the South we see very few, as a fraction of the overall total, but get up North, and you sometimes get lines and lines of them. Are perhaps more of these scrapped as being life expired than we tend to think about? Certainly one occasionally sees GRP graveyards with a number of sunken and abandoned boats that probably nobody is ever going to take on.

Good point Alan but the sheer number of boats being built also includes fibreglass as well as steel so surely the argument can be extended to all materials of manufacture (other than perhaps wooden ones where the rate of scrappage is likely to exceed the rate of build). I just don't see where all these abandoned boats are being scrapped/kept/hidden such that the figures can really fall.

Roger

[Paul C]

I read in a comment on Narrowboat World that C&RT have a problem, that the number of boats on the system has gone down, thus a reduction in their income. This was in a reader's comment not an article, is it true or just a bit of ill informed gossip? I can't find any up to date figures on it?

 

K

 

 

Can you provide a link to this?

[Neil TNC]

 

Private water marinas - surely there aren't enough of these to cater for the supposed numbers leaving?

 

That tends to leave us with an explanation that the number of unlicensed boats is increasing despite C&RT's claims to the contrary.

It's all a bit of a puzzle.

Roger

 

There is a lot more "private water" connected to the CaRT / EA system than people know about...most of the people that moor there keep very quiet!

 

What ever CaRT says, I would think that there has been an increase in the number of unlicenced boats, probably lost in the increasing amount ownership transfers that have occurred in the last couple of years.

[alan_fincher]

Good point Alan but the sheer number of boats being built also includes fibreglass as well as steel so surely the argument can be extended to all materials of manufacture (other than perhaps wooden ones where the rate of scrappage is likely to exceed the rate of build). I just don't see where all these abandoned boats are being scrapped/kept/hidden such that the figures can really fall.

Roger

Is there much new Tupperware coming on to CRT managed water ?

 

Serious question - I don't know, as for example don't get on to CRT managed rivers very often.

[Guest]

Is there much new Tupperware coming on to CRT managed water ?

 

Serious question - I don't know, as for example don't get on to CRT managed rivers very often.

 

Not sure about new but at our last marina I would estimate approx 50% of the boats were GRP, there is a marina near us that is virtually 100% GRP (mainly due to it's length restrictions) and when we are out and about approx. 50% of the boats we see are GRP.

[NickF]

With all the floods surely the number of boats have risen.

 

Except for those unfortunate few that have gone down!

[John V]

 

Is it possible that in a small degree we are falling into the trap of thinking "steel narrow boat"?

 

Clearly we know from history and the number of sad pictures on here that there is an ever dwindling number of wooden boats.

 

Also the further North I travel, the more I am surprised by how much the percentage of fibreglass boats rises.

 

In the South we see very few, as a fraction of the overall total, but get up North, and you sometimes get lines and lines of them. Are perhaps more of these scrapped as being life expired than we tend to think about? Certainly one occasionally sees GRP graveyards with a number of sunken and abandoned boats that probably nobody is ever going to take on.

 

You might be surprised at the longevity of some GRP, mine is believed to be at least 35 years old and is still perfectly sound and looking smart.

I do agree however that many of the more modern ones have a much shorter lifespan, quite a lot seem to end up in coastal waters. I know personally of a couple of boatyards with quite a large number of ex inland waterways boats, even Carribeans escaped from the Broads, not what you would expect to see in salt water!

[Teadaemon]

Not relevant to the numbers of boats on CaRT waters, but here on the Broads it's very noticeable that there are a lot more boats for sale now than there were a few years ago, and the selling price is generally a lot less than it was a few years ago (boats that don't have a realistic asking price tend to sit on the market for months or years). Those boats that people are keeping are being used less (in many cases because the cost of fuel to get to/from the Broads has gone up so much over the past couple of years).

 

With GRP (or indeed wooden) boats up to about 25 feet, owners often have the option of laying them up on a trailer on the driveway, very cheap if they have the trailer already, and probably the same as a year's licence/tolls and mooring if they have to buy one. Some larger cruisers also have the option of going for a coastal/estuary mooring, often cheaper than one on the canals and rivers (especially at the moment, when quite a lot of coastal marinas are desperate for customers) and no licence or BSS required.

[jenlyn]

Bit of info

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/breakdown_of_licence_figures#incoming-335455

 

Also this

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/137722/response/335539/attach/html/2/Seized%20Boat%20figures%20FOIA309.pdf.html

Edited November 27, 2012 by jenlyn

[MtB]

With GRP (or indeed wooden) boats up to about 25 feet, owners often have the option of laying them up on a trailer on the driveway, very cheap if they have the trailer already, and probably the same as a year's licence/tolls and mooring if they have to buy one.

 

This is a good point. Could easily account for quite large numbers of licences not being renewed, totally legitimately.

 

BUT, I visit large numbers of domestic addresses in my work, and I notice no increase in the (very small) number of boats stored in the gardens and driveways in and around the south of England.

 

MtB

[Paul C]

Not relevant to the numbers of boats on CaRT waters, but here on the Broads it's very noticeable that there are a lot more boats for sale now than there were a few years ago

 

I think you've inavertently observed the reason why numbers of licensed boats are declining, yet licence evasion is down too; and overall number of boats is up.

 

Basically, there's a number of reasons why a boat could be on (or near, eg in a marina) C&RT waters, not be licensed, yet not registering (or counting in the statistics) as evading licence. One reason could be the number on 'trade licence' ie on brokerage etc. I guess if the owner has gone away, or given up the ownership, then it isn't registered as a licence evader any more. C&RT may well 'own' these vessels. ie. abandoned/end of life boats which are still floating (or maybe not) ie not physically removed from the water.

 

TBH though I'm only guessing and the original poster hasn't even provided a link to the article, it might just be the article is wrong or used an incorrect assumption anyway.

[kevinl]

I think you've inavertently observed the reason why numbers of licensed boats are declining, yet licence evasion is down too; and overall number of boats is up.

 

Basically, there's a number of reasons why a boat could be on (or near, eg in a marina) C&RT waters, not be licensed, yet not registering (or counting in the statistics) as evading licence. One reason could be the number on 'trade licence' ie on brokerage etc. I guess if the owner has gone away, or given up the ownership, then it isn't registered as a licence evader any more. C&RT may well 'own' these vessels. ie. abandoned/end of life boats which are still floating (or maybe not) ie not physically removed from the water.

 

TBH though I'm only guessing and the original poster hasn't even provided a link to the article, it might just be the article is wrong or used an incorrect assumption anyway.

 

Hi Paul

 

Only just got on the computer and I did see that you asked for a link at 10.59 today, however, in my question I did say "this was NOT in an article" it was in an e-mail a reader sent in, I will try and find it and post the link. But for all that's been said by everyone on this topic I'm still none the wiser, is the number of boats going down or was the person who made the comment talking out of their *rse?

[David Mack]

Ah, good reliable information not in doubt, then!

 

 

Is it possible that in a small degree we are falling into the trap of thinking "steel narrow boat"?

 

Clearly we know from history and the number of sad pictures on here that there is an ever dwindling number of wooden boats.

 

Also the further North I travel, the more I am surprised by how much the percentage of fibreglass boats rises.

 

In the South we see very few, as a fraction of the overall total, but get up North, and you sometimes get lines and lines of them. Are perhaps more of these scrapped as being life expired than we tend to think about? Certainly one occasionally sees GRP graveyards with a number of sunken and abandoned boats that probably nobody is ever going to take on.

 

30-40 years ago there were very few steel narrowboats (apart from (ex) working boats), and the canals were largely populated with GRP and wooden cruisers. Today over most of the canal network the vast majority of boats are narrow boats (with cruisers more common on rivers and some northern waters). So over that timescale a lot of wooden and grp boats have gone. Where? I don't know, but they have gone. So there must be boats being scrapped.

 

Steel narrowboats may have a longer life than wooden/grp boats, but we have had a number of threads on here about steel boats needing hull plating at a cost which is not reflected in the value of the boat once the work has been done. So some of these must surely end up as scrappers.