GUCCC Town Class Names

[Derek R.]

It's an interesting subject, and one we will never really know the definitive cause of due to so many factors being involved. Not least is the state of the canals, loading facilities, and perhaps the pallet and the container - two items that were to see the end of London Dock work, and for which the railways and roads were perfectly ready for with vehicles able to carry same. But that was in the future as seen from 1930, the biggest folly in my view, was the optimism in the face of canalside infrastructure falling into decay, too much bottom and not enough top. The economies of size had not hit back then, but must have surely been on the horizon. Bulk carrying in narrow boats just wasn't 'big' enough. But they thought they could make a difference. "One more push and we'll be through". Small gains - great losses. All so familiar somehow.

 

Edited to add:

 

Graham mentions finance. There may well have been finance available for improvements, but where government is concerned, there is an underlying thread that reaches beyond the roots of government trees, a fungi called Banking. Wherever huge funding is supplied, there will be devious means set in play that ensures failure of a scheme so as to benefit initially from the loan interest, and later from the collapse.

 

Now that’s a bucket of worms we could ‘speculate’ on for a very long time given the entrenched beliefs of most people, but the bottom line is - Money controls the World.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Derek R.

[BEngo]

What I find really intriguing is the massive investment that was made in the Grand Union Canal during the 1930s - widening, new wide locks, mile upon mile of new concrete piling etc. and of course there was massive investment in the carrying fleet not to mention new lorries, cranes and handling equipment. I have not studied the reasons for this but I suspect there was some financial help, possibly from the Government as a sort of job-creation scheme to ease the unemployment which had caused so much poverty and unrest between the wars. It would be interesting to know how it was all funded?

 

Railway owned canals did not receive the same level of investment despite the fact that the 1930s were very prosperous years for the railway companies.

 

The other interesting anomaly about the widening of the GU was that on reaching Birmingham with its narrow locks - there was nowhere to go . . .

 

 

The widening was paid for by £500 K in loans taken out by the GUCCo, and the interest on these was guaranteed by the Government, as a job-creation scheme. The stated aim was to get 100 ton barges to Birmingham, but the money would not stretch to all the dredging and track widening needed, so narrow boats in pairs became a stopgap. Birmingham and the Black Country, still the heart of the workshop of the world, was a good place to compete with the railways for heavy traffic- the principal industrial fuel was mined nearby, the area had grown up before the railways, but around the canals, so it was often only possible to move heavy traffics by water. Hence the railway exchange basins, which were even then hindered by the need for double handling and the delays which were built into the railway freight system. This was geared to common carrying and relied on numerous marshalling yards to assemble and distribute freight wagons. Each marshalling imposed a delay. It was at least as quick to ship by water from Birmingham to London and often quicker. Tom Foxon has noted that in the '50's a wagon load of coal (10 tons) would take longer to a Southern Oxford Canal wharf than a boat load (20-25 tons) ordered at the same time.

 

 

I would disagree that the railway companies were prosperous in the 1930's. They received little Government help and were encouraged to keep open facilities that would have more profitably closed. Stamp would probably not have wanted the LMS to run three major rolling stock repair facilities with a workforce of 100,000. The companies also paid poor dividends. The GW was best with 3% in the early 30's to 2.75 % average between 1935 and 39, but these were paid out of reserves. Just after the Depression the LMS paid no dividend. Between 1935 and 1939 the LMS averaged 2.7% but the Southern paid 0.65% and the LNER nothing. Only the GWR paid a dividend in 1939. I would agree that from their publicity material they were proclaiming the second heyday of the railways (the first was just before WW1) but the Square Deal campaign of 1938 on was an indicator that not all was well in the fight against road haulage and outdated restrictions.

 

 

N

[furnessvale]

I agree especially as per my previous posts I struggle to believe when GUCC were battling against the railways there principal competitor they would name their largest order of new boats after rail depots/stations. Can you imagine BA naming their new planes after Ryan Air flight destinations.

 

Nothing in the names as applied to the boats suggests that they are railway stations. The theory is that a Bradshaws or whetever was a simple reference book to find the names of towns etc.

 

One name that strengthens the Bradshaws theory to me is Aboyne. I wonder what other references a group of men sitting in a London office would use to come up with that one?

 

Now if they had used names like Euston or Kings Cross I could understand the arguments about railway competition.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Laurence Hogg]

By the 1930s any serious competition between the railways and the canals was negligible. Certainly, the railways no longer saw the canals as serious competition so the comparison with two of today's major airlines is irrelevant. The 1938 'Square Deal' campaign which united the 'Big Four' railway companies was aimed entirely a persuading the government to allow them to compete fairly with road transport a threat that had been growing since the end of the First World War - at the time road hauliers and bus companies were unfettered by the burden of regulation that railways had to endure. In general, canal carrying companies stood together with the railways on the 'Square Deal' campaign because they also feared the threat of unregulated and unfair competition from road transport.

 

I imagine that very few of us can really imagine just how important the railways had become before the advent of the Second World War - the influence of railway transport was everywhere and, at this time, even the canal companies would have used the railways when they needed something quickly or from a place not conveniently served by canal. The railways also owned and managed a large proportion of the canal network - as well as owning many of the warehouses and loading facilities beside the canals.

 

The difference with the GUCCo and the GUCCCoLtd was that they worked over waterways which had no railway ownership. Indeed the siting of their depots in Birmingham made sure that the BCN (Railway owned) got very little from the GU concern. Only a few GU boats worked over the BCN, none were gauged by the BCN either, the BCN used the GJ tables when these trips occured. So in reality the route was still regarded as serious competition to rail and proved in sme cases to be quicker.

The idea of 100 ton barges up to Birmingham makes a lot of sense, the book they produced "Arteries of commerce" clearly illustrated the thinking behind the project. The proposed but unbuilt wide "Royalty" class boats would have probably been the forerunner of the large capicity boats, sad none were made (drawings exist). The war buggered up most plans and the GU wasnt able to follow its course of business as it should, however they carried on, even planning replacement motor boats to be phased in. Drawings exist to these too showing 4ft 6" sides, welded and rivetted construction and they were to be named after Counties.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[alan_fincher]

The war buggered up most plans and the GU wasnt able to follow its course of business as it should, however they carried on, even planning replacement motor boats to be phased in. Drawings exist to these too showing 4ft 6" sides, welded and rivetted construction and they were to be named after Counties.

Being pedantic though, surely we are talking British Transport Commission for that "class" of boats.

 

IIRC the plans are dated 1956, (unless they are a re-working of something earlier ?), so we are talking maybe 8 years post nationalisation, and hence post GUCCCo.

 

I sort of assumed this was an early proposal for replacemen boats, before things like the "Rivers" were conceived.

 

Incidentally my memory is of a very GUCCCo "looking" boat in the plans, but of an all welded construction. I'm not sre I recall anything riveted in the plans I have seen, but I think they were for "overall arrangements", rather than any bit of fine detail.

 

What is the known history of those drawings, then ? It's a shame none were built - I guess something like the much newer "Arundel" is as close to what might have been, as most, although that is presumably built to "Town" type hull side depths, rather than the 4' 6" I think those drawings showed.

[carlt]

....they were to be named after Counties.

Metropolitan, Administrative or Historic?

Edited July 7, 2012 by carlt

[alan_fincher]

Metropolitan, Administrative or Historic?

What counies does Bradshaw use ?

[NB Alnwick]

What counies does Bradshaw use ?

 

Shirley you mean Counties - they weren't listed in Bradshaw but the GWR had some nice ones . . .

[carlt]

What counies does Bradshaw use ?

The theory is that they took the names from Wisdens (and for future reference...You heard it here first).

[RLWP]

The theory is that they took the names from Wisdens (and for future reference...You heard it here first).

 

Not Old Moore's?

 

Richard

[Laurence Hogg]

Being pedantic though, surely we are talking British Transport Commission for that "class" of boats.

 

IIRC the plans are dated 1956, (unless they are a re-working of something earlier ?), so we are talking maybe 8 years post nationalisation, and hence post GUCCCo.

 

I sort of assumed this was an early proposal for replacemen boats, before things like the "Rivers" were conceived.

 

Incidentally my memory is of a very GUCCCo "looking" boat in the plans, but of an all welded construction. I'm not sre I recall anything riveted in the plans I have seen, but I think they were for "overall arrangements", rather than any bit of fine detail.

 

What is the known history of those drawings, then ? It's a shame none were built - I guess something like the much newer "Arundel" is as close to what might have been, as most, although that is presumably built to "Town" type hull side depths, rather than the 4' 6" I think those drawings showed.

The earliest drawings were from 1948 they then produced a series some in 1952 then two versions in 1956, a further version was drawn up which showed the Pimblott style bow but still having mast & stands. The last time I asked for copies of these Caroline couldnt find them and assumed they are in still unsorted BTC stuff from Stoke Bruerne, maybe they will surface at Ellesmere Port, the 1956 drawing was sold at Stoke for years as a large GU motor plan! which of course it wasnt.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[kingofthecut]

Would it have worked if it hadn't been for the war?

 

I'm sure I recall FMC made one of their largest profits through the war, presumably helped by carrying munitions.

[antarmike]

Renton always gives me problems, A tiny village in Scotland at the time, yes it has a railway station but in 2001 its population was just over 2100.

 

Can I suggest that the naming was done by everyone in the office throwing names in the hat. Places that were significant to them Maybe their favourite holiday haunt. Most people went on holiday by train so by default they go to somewhere with a railway station.

 

Maybe some of the smaller villages where chosen because they were staff's birthplaces, or were they had met their wives, (or married them...Gretna?).

 

Maybe there was a baotman in the office that day. He might have suggested Fenny because to him it wasn't Fenny Stratford, just Fenny.

 

Maybe someone from Harland and Woolf called in at the Offices, they built many of the boats so mabybe out of courtesy they were allowed to have a go. Their parent company was in Belfast, so that one goes into the hat for consideration.

 

Some of the London Underground associations eg Angel, might actually be where staff lived and commuted from? Angel/ The Angel is recognised in the London Plan as one of 35 major centres in Greater London, and is therefore more than an Underground station named after a pub (such as the Elephant and Castle)

 

Amongst the mis-spelled names is Cambourne which should presumably be Camborne.

 

The list is so eclectic I fancy the view that names were thrown in a hat by everyone in the office, maybe boat captains, the boat builders themselves....

 

It is a good a theory as any other...

Edited July 27, 2012 by antarmike

[Chertsey]

I certainly think that could be part of it, with a gazetteer called in to make up the numbers.

 

Though if holidays played a significant part, you would expect there to be more coastal towns and obvious holiday destinations.

 

Completely random (within some alphabetical boundaries) still looks the most likely explanation for most of them.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Chertsey

[David Mack]

Angel/ The Angel is recognised in the London Plan as one of 35 major centres in Greater London, and is therefore more than an Underground station named after a pub (such as the Elephant and Castle)

 

I think you'll find South Londoners recognise "The Elephant" as just as much of a "place", even if it has declined from the heady days of the late 19th/early 20th century, and the 1960s redevelopment failed to achieve what it promised.

[Laurence Hogg]

Lets not forget the two last Walkers butty boats built were "Aberystwth" and "Bangor" which although BTC boats were to the GUCCCo design. In recognising this addition to the fleet raises the question what "Aber" was short for?

Edited July 27, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[antarmike]

I certainly think that could be part of it, with a gazetteer called in to make up the numbers.

 

 

 

I am sure I could name hundreds of towns without need of any printed reference. Surely an office full of staff would know enough town names in their head to far exceed one hundred and seventy something without needing Bradshaw's. (or any other written list)

 

And although it is claimed each of these Towns or villages has a railway station that might not be true if for example Halton was named after the village on the Wendover Arm, (nearest Railway station Wendover??) part of the Grand Union Canal and not HALTON: Lancashire (LMS), or Halton Cheshire (GWR/LMS Joint).

 

I haven't looked into this but it seems people have been looking for railway stations to match the names rather than looking at the names and seeing if there isn't an alternative town or village that may have been the intended place the name alludes to which doesn't have a Railway Station.

 

There seems to be a lot of canal towns in the naming, so to my mind at least Halton the Buckinghamshire village being on a GUCCCo owned canal would seem a very likely source of a name. (Halton Reservoir was/is one of the reservoirs that feeds Tring Summit and is of some importance.)

 

Are there other cases where the boat name is both a railway station and also a town or a village without such a station, and if there others apart from Halton, how do we know the name was chosen from the Station not the railway-less town or village?

Edited July 27, 2012 by antarmike

[antarmike]

Staverton Could be Staverton Northants which does not have a Railway Station. Near Daventry, not on the canal but a stones throw from one.

 

What if Barnes was not the London Barnes but Barnes, Sunderland, Did Barnes, sunderland have a railway station? it certainly hasn't now.

 

Belmont, Yes there is one with a Railway station but Belmont could be

 

Belmont (parish), County Durham

Belmont, Ayr

Belmont, Belfast an electoral ward in Northern Ireland

Belmont, County Durham

Belmont, East Sussex

Belmont, Lancashire

Belmont, Shetland

Belmont Rural, Herefordshire

 

If it was named after any of these would it still have a railway station?

 

I am not going through the whole list but this is enough of a try to say that it is possible that town class boats were named after one particular town with a given name that might not have a Railway Station.

 

Elton, Cambridgeshire, England (formerly Elton, Huntingdonshire) has a railway station, but do:-

Elton, Cheshire, England

Elton, County Durham, England

Elton, Derbyshire, England

Elton, Gloucestershire, England

Elton, Greater Manchester, England

Elton, Herefordshire, England

Elton, Nottinghamshire, England

Edited July 27, 2012 by antarmike

[Laurence Hogg]

I completely agree with the idea of names in a hat, it certainly would explain the use of small hamlets and cities alongside well known industrial places.

[Chertsey]

I guess we are now just arguing about the interpretation of the available evidence - what intuitively seems most likely on the basis of what we know. Unless and until more evidence becomes available, that's probably about as far as we can go.

 

Mike - your observation does nothing to undermine the gazetteer hypothesis. Only a boat name without a station would do that.

 

No one has suggested that the 'stars' were picked out of a hat or by asking people passing through the office about their astronomical interests and attachments. If it is relatively uncontroversial that these must have been picked out of a book (and some of them are so obscure they surely must have been) why would they look to a new method for naming the next tranche of boats?

[antarmike]

I, being a local lad, and not thinking much about it always thought Halton was named after The Bucks village on the Wendover arm. It seems so logical that a GU boat would be named after a GU town/ village, I never thought it would be named after anywhere else. Equally I always assumed that Belfast was named as such , by a representative of Harland and Woolf, because it was a Harland and Woolf boat and Harland and Woolf are based in Belfast, and for no other reason.

 

We will have to agree to differ, I don't buy the theory, and I feel there is enough reason to doubt it that I remain unconvinced.

 

As for stars, so many are not stars, some are planets, some are moons of planets, some are moons of asteroids, some constellations, some asteroids/ proto-planets, some galaxies, some astrology, some mythology, some completely meaningless (unless inert gaseous elements have a connection to the heavens), that I doubt that there was ever a list that contained all the Star names. Show me a list (or even a book) that is a possible contender for the source of the star names, and I will start to believe in the theory that any actual list was the source of the names any of classes.

 

But you still haven't given any reason why they might need a list. A lot of the argument has been about which list was used. As I said earlier why the heck would they need a list? There is absolutely no proven need for a list. I could from the top of my head give you 172 names of towns and villages in just the three counties, Herts, Bucks and Lincs where I have lived and I know the area. Give me an office full of staff and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to need a list to come up with a mere 172 names is there? So why do you say that they decided to use Bradshaw's when names where readily available without resource to almanacs, directories etc?

 

 

The stars seem to have been drawn from everywhere and nowhere and that I believe suggests that were also named by a collaboration of people thinking up appropriate names, but on that occasion having even less idea what the rules and criteria for inclusion were and the hap-hazard process being even less well thought out that for the towns.

 

If (for both classes of boat) the names were produced from an actual list, this makes proof reading of the selected names easy and there should be no mistakes, If people threw in names verbally or or on bits of paper whoever collated them and typed out the final list has no master source against which checks can be made, and instead is merely typing out what was said verbally in a meeting, and jotted down by a bored secretary without a lot of education in the heavenly bodies or the geography of the U.K.. The fact that there are so many howlers in both the Towns and the Stars points, in my mind, to a brain storming session recorded by a secretary and typed up without anything to check the results against.

 

Quote"Mike - your observation does nothing to undermine the gazetteer hypothesis. Only a boat name without a station would do that."

 

My theory has also done nothing to undermine another theory that the towns were selected from the output of thousands of monkeys bashing away at typewriters.....nothing could disprove that theory!

 

Monkeys on typewriters would best explain why Duke and Duchess are Royalty class names since in U.K. Dukes and Duchesses are ranks within the peerage system, not royal titles. Even in Europe there have been no Royal rulers who where Dukes or Duchesses since 1918. Certainly by the 1930's in the UK being a Duke or a Duchess did not make you a royal. Light blue touch paper and retire (to bed)

Edited July 28, 2012 by antarmike

[Derek R.]

I don't believe anyone has stated they came from any particular book, guide or other specific 'list' Mike, the original post mentions 'theory' as do subsequent ones. This one copies from a WW publication on the subject. If you are seeking certain kinds of names, then surely some sort of list is a good starting point - list of girls names etc. They were still available before the internet - libraries were a favourite.

 

As for a list of constellations HERE's one.

Most Astronomical encyclopaedias would have had in index, so that could be a source too. TYCHO, whilst not appearing in that list, is a supernova in Cassiopiea, (wonder if that had anything to do with Cassio?) but also the largest crater on the Moon. The name is taken from the Danish astronomer/mathematician Tycho Brahe 1546 - 1601. Coincidentally, the boat TYCHO has the public health registration number 1601.

Royalty? Anything associated would suffice.

 

There may also have been 'monkeys' somewhere between those bored secretaries and the brush wielder!

 

Laurence, ABER!

 

Edited July 28, 2012 by Derek R.

[Catrin]

I think that there is a very big difference in public knowledge about towns and public knowledge about astronomical features. Ask a group of people to give you names of towns, and I don't think there would be any difficulty, ask the same group of people about astronomical features and you would end up with the same 3 or 4 things repeated endlessly, especially pre-war. They might include Pluto, as it had been discovered in 1930, but Mimas? Hyperion? Enceladus? Merope? I've taught Astronomy and I know these names, but most people today wouldn't, even after the photos from the Cassini Saturn mission and the Hubble space telescope. They might know them from classical literature if they had had the right kind of education, but I doubt that they would attach them to satellites of Saturn, etc.

 

Mike, I think that your suggestion about towns could explain why there are mis-spelled names. "Edgeware, my cousin lives there", "Bilster, my grandad was born there", etc. But I think that the 'Star' boats were named by one person with a particular interest. I know that doesn't explain 'Bargus', etc. but I really don't think that they could come up with a suitable 'Star' list by asking people in an office for contributions.

 

PS Derek, I'd go for the large crater on the moon for Tycho, not "Tycho's supernova"

[alan_fincher]

The "Stars" are rather different to the "Towns", though, IMO.

 

With the towns, whilst you can argue all day about which "Aber" or "Fenny", it is fairly obvious what actual name most are meant to be. Of course Mike used to own "Bilster", though, which is perhaps the hardset one to stretch out to a real place, "Bilston" is usually assumed.

 

By comparison the "Stars" list, apart from obvious misspellings, contains several names that Cath has said to me, as "I don't recognise that as anything from astronomy - I don't think it is a star, a planet, a moon, a crater, a constellation, or even (as "Sickle" is), an obscure part of a constellation that is also used for another star class boat, (part of "Leo", in our case)".

 

I can't remember exactly which "stars" we have tried Googling for without being able to find an astronomical connection, but for example which of the following can anyone come up with a "star" connection to ?

 

"Argon", "Argus" & "Bargus".

 

(On the other hand, we think "Argo" - yet another one with "Arg" in its name, could be a shortening of "Argo Navis" - like many - fairly obscure, I'd say).

 

In fact the "stars" list would seem to contain some names that people thought had the connection, without actually consulting any list to check them out!

[Tuscan]

It's good to have a bit of a mystery, it still strikes me as a random set of names so the idea that they were suggested by people in the office makes as much sense as any.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Tuscan