GUCCC Town Class Names

[Chertsey]

I guess I am just inclined to favour the simplest explanation that fits the known facts. Don't really want to keep batting it backwards and forwards, but the one thing that bothers me about alternative explanations, which are otherwise quite plausible, why not a single place without a station? And why use a difficult and unreliable method when there's a simple, reliable and quick one available?

 

Mike, of course you could posit an infinite number of monkeys hypothesis, but that requires more, wilder assumptions. So, I think, in a less extreme way, does the random people in the office hypothesis.

[Tuscan]

In those days most small towns had a station so in that sense not so unusual but I still struggle to understand why use railway towns as your reference when at that time they were historically your principle competitor. I don't think the management would sanction that. If you accept that stations were chosen specifically then why pick remote little known stations rather than major stations and towns which would have been much more widely recognised and familiar to the staff concerned. Guess we will agree to disagree one day no doubt we can discuss over a bottle of wine or two!

[antarmike]

Derek, when I asked to be shown a list or a book that might contain the names of all the star class boats, I thought it was fairly obvious that I meant a list or book that would have been available in the early 1930's, from which one person could pick all the star class names. Quote "Show me a list (or even a book) that is a possible contender for the source of the star names" Unquote.

I didn't mean point me to something on the internet. I still wait for a contemporary publication that could be a single source of the star class names. If we can't find one it makes saying a list was used rather difficult.

 

Sorry Cath but I disagree when you say say that it was a list complied by just one person with an Astronomical interest. If someone was truly interested why is the list populated by spurious nonsensical names? If you have a particular interest you tend to have done a lot of reading on the subject and "Know your Onions". However the Star names came about it wasn't the result of a serious researcher or enthusiast who would not have made these mistakes! Astronomers also tend to have total contempt for astrologers, so to say one person was writing the list and he was an astronomer/astrologer seems to be an oxymoron. A keen Astronomer would have known Argon was an inert gaseous element with an atomic number of 18 and no more!

 

I am struggling to think why any technically accurate reference list would include star signs, a totally spurious load of nonsense based on areas of the sky. (Virgo etc) along with craters on the moon, or technical terms such as Zenith (an imaginary point directly "above" a particular location, on the imaginary celestial sphere.). Sounds like a very wierd book.

 

Zodiac is an obscure conceptual term rather than any actual object in the sky (In both astrology and historical astronomy, the zodiac is a circle of twelve 30° divisions of celestial longitude that are centered upon the ecliptic: the apparent path of the Sun across the celestial sphere over the course of the year. )

 

There is a constellation Tucana (the Toucan) but we have star Motor Tucana paired with Taurus (nonsensical Astrological rubbish) and Butty Toucan (the English translation of Tucana) paired with Sculptor (both Constellation and galaxy). Tucana? Toucan? same thing, its the same galaxy twice!

 

 

Meteor is not an object either, rather it is the visible path of a meteoroid that has entered the Earth's atmosphere. ie the visible path of a falling object, not the object itself. The visible meteor only comes into existence once the meteroid has entered Earth's atmosphere, so there is nothing "Heavenly" to do with Meteors except as a poular misconception of what one is. (akin to bubbles in bubble chamber, not a sub atomic particle whose course they expose)

 

Malus (Latin for mast) was a sectional asterism in the former constellation Argo Navis. Its stars were incorporated into the new constellation Pyxis by Nicolas Louis de Lacaille. He died in 1762 so Malus had not used as the name of an apparent grouping of stars for about 180 years when given as a name of the boat. In the 19th century astronomer John Herschel suggested renaming Pyxis to 'Malus' but the suggestion was not followed.

 

Comet is a generic name or any one of the Small Solar System bodies. Not any unique object, rather a class of object. (as is planet)

 

Thea- should that be Theia? Theia is not a heavenly body, but rather hypothesized protoplanet is derived from the mythical Greek titan Theia, who gave birth to the Moon goddess, Selene. This designation was proposed initially by the English geochemist Alex N. Halliday in 2000 and has become accepted in the scientific community. According to modern theories of planet formation, Theia was part of a population of Mars-sized bodies that existed in the Solar System 4.5 billion years ago. But Theia was only suggested and named in 2000, so whatever Thea was meant to be when the name was used on the boat, it wasn't the current assumed protoplanet. So is Theia named after the mythical Greek titan herself? If so it is a naming based on a Mythological Titan who did not have any object in the heavens named after her in the 1930's.

 

As I say very weird book it would have been. I am with my brother on this one. A group of people throwing in what they thought were star names.....resulting in a nonsensical mishmash. Names in a hat thrown in at random, same as the Towns!

Edited July 28, 2012 by antarmike

[pete harrison]

Mike, I think that your suggestion about towns could explain why there are mis-spelled names. "Edgeware, my cousin lives there", "Bilster, my grandad was born there",

I know I have said it before but the name of the large Woolwich motor EDGWARE was lettered correctly whilst in full time trade (1937 - 1963), and it is named correctly on all period documents I have seen. EDGWARE was sold by British Waterways Board in August 1968 from when on it has been lettered EDGEWARE. There is of course a possibility that when on lease to Willow Wren Canal Transport Services Ltd. (1963 - 1968) the naming could have been spelled incorrectly as the painting became the responsibility of the boatman (who sub-let the boat) rather than the company. I do have 'enthusiast' observations for this boat dated 1967 where its name is spelled both ways.

[Chertsey]

We seem to be going round in circles here. Obviously there are a number of possible explanations for the names the large boats ended up with. Some of us think that one is the most likely, others think a different one.

 

But once again Tuscan, no one is suggesting that they were explicitly named after railway stations - only that a railway timetable or gazetteer would have made an easy source of town/village place names (which they clearly ARE named after). In my view, the easiest and thus most likely, but others differ.

[Tuscan]

An AA handbook of the period would also give a list of place names for example, anyway I agree we will never know unless something turns up in an archive.so it's probably not worth further conjecture unless we can turn up some facts. Interesting discussion though.

[Derek R.]

"Show me a list (or even a book) that is a possible contender for the source of the star names"

 

No Mike, I do not think you will be able to find any such list as used for the purpose of naming the smaller Woolwich and Northwich boats. But conversely, it cannot be ruled out that existing reference books of the day would not have aided and abetted the compiling of those names - even the eight or so names of the astrological zodiac. Most daily papers had their astrologers, and those names would have been popular knowledge.

 

Point to the internet? Well, why not? Those lists on the internet would almost certainly been taken from other lists and knowledge that had been previously published in various places at various times. We cannot rule them out.

 

Perhaps I shouln't have bothered replying.

 

Yes Sarah, TYCHO's crater would have been the more obvious one.

[antarmike]

"Show me a list (or even a book) that is a possible contender for the source of the star names"

 

No Mike, I do not think you will be able to find any such list as used for the purpose of naming the smaller Woolwich and Northwich boats. But conversely, it cannot be ruled out that existing reference books of the day would not have aided and abetted the compiling of those names - even the eight or so names of the astrological zodiac. Most daily papers had their astrologers, and those names would have been popular knowledge.

 

Point to the internet? Well, why not? Those lists on the internet would almost certainly been taken from other lists and knowledge that had been previously published in various places at various times. We cannot rule them out.

 

Perhaps I shouln't have bothered replying.

 

Yes Sarah, TYCHO's crater would have been the more obvious one.

Your post was worth posting but as you say, it is not the document we need to say stars were picked from a list.

 

It is after all only a list of Constellations.

 

Star class names include purely mythical being who never gave their name to heavenly bodies, Features on the moon, astronomical concepts of imaginary spheres, planets, moons, signs of the zodiac and classes of heavenly bodies, phenomena only happening in earth's atmosphere etc, Gaseous elements, and names that mean absolutely nothing I don't doubt that lists of galaxies were available, my point is that the star class names go beyond any single source list.

 

What I asked of everyone is can you suggest what was used as a source document from which to pick the Star class names? The "Bradshaw's" for the Star class?

 

An AA handbook of the period would also give a list of place names for example, anyway I agree we will never know unless something turns up in an archive.so it's probably not worth further conjecture unless we can turn up some facts. Interesting discussion though.

So would have looking at a road map.......

Edited July 28, 2012 by antarmike

[Chertsey]

An AA handbook of the period would also give a list of place names for example, anyway I agree we will never know unless something turns up in an archive.so it's probably not worth further conjecture unless we can turn up some facts. Interesting discussion though.

The thing that makes that seem less likely to me is that surely out of 172 names that would have thrown up one that didn't have a station.

It does seem as if people are clutching at 'anything but Bradshaw' straws a bit here. Why go to such lengths to avoid the most obvious explanation?

[Derek R.]

Sorry, got crossed up with names - to:

Yes Sarah Catrin!, TYCHO's crater would have been the more obvious one.

 

Derek

[Laurence Hogg]

The thing that makes that seem less likely to me is that surely out of 172 names that would have thrown up one that didn't have a station.

It does seem as if people are clutching at 'anything but Bradshaw' straws a bit here. Why go to such lengths to avoid the most obvious explanation?

I think you are forgetting how much railway we have lost and indeed how many stations and halts. In an era where motor transport was still "new" most people travelled by railway and tramway so towns without rail connections were "remote".

My copy of the history of GUCCCo Ltd up to 1948 has no references as to how or why universe and solar objects were chosen, it does however simply state that the larger boats were named after towns and villages in the British Isles. What would have been in the office? A map of the UK for sure pinned on the wall, find a 1930's transport related office without one, they showed the main roads, waterways and railways.

So how to choose?

...Get the darts out!

[Catrin]

I know I have said it before but the name of the large Woolwich motor EDGWARE was lettered correctly whilst in full time trade (1937 - 1963), and it is named correctly on all period documents I have seen. EDGWARE was sold by British Waterways Board in August 1968 from when on it has been lettered EDGEWARE. There is of course a possibility that when on lease to Willow Wren Canal Transport Services Ltd. (1963 - 1968) the naming could have been spelled incorrectly as the painting became the responsibility of the boatman (who sub-let the boat) rather than the company. I do have 'enthusiast' observations for this boat dated 1967 where its name is spelled both ways.

My apologies, I assumed that this was an original mis-spelling.

[Catrin]

As I say very weird book it would have been. I am with my brother on this one. A group of people throwing in what they thought were star names.....resulting in a nonsensical mishmash. Names in a hat thrown in at random, same as the Towns!

Mike, back in 1970 I got chucked out of both Domestic Science and Needlework - they finally gave up on me, and in those days girls were not allowed to do woodwork and metalwork. I was allowed to study Astronomy at the back of the room - ostensibly to take the O level, except that the school forgot to enter me. I still have my notes (my mother found them a year or so back in her loft). I remember working through just this kind of book, a general encyclopaedia of terms. I do have an old 'dictionary of Astronomy' on my desk now (from later on, but very similar) - which contains Zenith and "Toucan. Common name for Tucana" - and lots more of these terms. I don't have any problem with this kind of book, I've owned many of them over the years. Yes, it's a mishmash, but that is often the way with popular 'dictionaries' of science.

 

I will take issue with you over the Zodiac. The original constellations come from mythology, later on various people named other constellations for 'modern scientific equipment' - like Antlia - 'the air pump', etc. However, while the Zodiac is the constellations in the plane of the ecliptic that the sun 'passes through' during the year. They are still constellations - just as much as any other constellation - an arbitrary naming. The zodiac is used by astrologers, but the zodiacal constellations are still used by by astronomers. When I have taught GCSE Astronomy recently I have been expected to make sure that students know several constellation groupings. Tucana is as much nonsense as Taurus, but astronomers still use constellations as they are useful descriptions, and both of these are constellations.

 

I agree that there is a Sculptor galaxy, but isn't that because it is in the constellation of Sculptor?

 

I don't have any more idea why there are rubbish names like Bargus, than I do with names like Bilster - except the idea that someone misheard them over a phone line - or perhaps their handwriting was awful. To be honest, I don't think we can ever know, but I still maintain that the general public's knowledge of astronomical objects is not good enough to come up with more than a few. I still think someone looked them up, somewhere.

 

Actually, Malus is not a term that I had ever come across in almost 5 decades of interest in Astronomy, but I could imagine someone coming up with it if they had read it in a book with some older terms in it.

Cheers

Cath

[antarmike]

The thing that makes that seem less likely to me is that surely out of 172 names that would have thrown up one that didn't have a station.

It does seem as if people are clutching at 'anything but Bradshaw' straws a bit here. Why go to such lengths to avoid the most obvious explanation?

 

This is where I bow out because as far as I am concerned Halton hasn't got a railway station and the theory has been disproved, because the most obvious Halton is Halton, Bucks on the G.U. Wendover Arm.

 

But when I say that I am told I am clutching at straws and conversely I think, on the balance of probability, you have chosen the wrong Halton and apparently you have done so just to be able to say Halton has a railway station in order to preserve your pet theory.

 

Why go to such lengths to avoid the most obvious Halton? (It is not as if you can even tie your theory down and say which of two possible Haltons with stations the boat is named after)

So I will leave it there, We ain't getting any further forward.

 

 

Actually, Malus is not a term that I had ever come across in almost 5 decades of interest in Astronomy, but I could imagine someone coming up with it if they had read it in a book with some older terms in it.

Cheers

Cath

And does Thea /Theia appear in any form in that book?

 

Would one person enter both Tucana and Toucan as boat names knowing them to be the same. Or does this show that several people where involved in a group exercise, two people at least entered possible names, one suggesting Toucan whilst someone else submitted Tucana? And whoever made the final choice (third person) did not know that Tucana and Toucan where one in the same and chose both?

Edited July 29, 2012 by antarmike

[Catrin]

This is where I bow out because as far as I am concerned Halton hasn't got a railway station because the most obvious Halton is Halton, Bucks on the G.U. Wendover Arm.....and when I say that I am told I am clutching at straws and I think on the balance of probability you have chosen the wrong Halton just to be able to say Halton has a railway station.... So I will leave it there, We ain't getting any further forward.

 

 

And does Thea /Theia appear in any form in that book?

 

Would one person enter both Tucana and Toucan as boat names knowing them to be the same. Or does this show that several people where involved in a group exercise, two people at least entered possible names, one suggesting Toucan whilst someone else submitted Tucana? And whoever made the final choice (third person) did not know that Tucana and Toucan where one in the same and chose both?

Theia/Thea - I don't know how long this concept has been around - since the 30's? Dunno.

 

Yes, I concede your point of Tucana/Toucan, but I do still maintain that the average person 'in the office', back in the mid-30s would not have had the range of knowledge that is evident in the list of 'Star class' boats.

[antarmike]

Theia/Thea - I don't know how long this concept has been around - since the 30's? Dunno.

 

Yes, I concede your point of Tucana/Toucan, but I do still maintain that the average person 'in the office', back in the mid-30s would not have had the range of knowledge that is evident in the list of 'Star class' boats.

 

Theia was proposed first in 2000 according to what I have googled....(and apart from this modern naming I can find no connection between Thea/Theia and any other celestial feature.)

 

The fact that Stars were even chosen, when the names and pronunciations where highly confusing to sometimes totally illiterate boatmen, and more often barely literate boatmen, meant it wasn't at all practical and must I suggest have been driven by some sort of enthusiastic amateur who enjoyed a bit of stargazing. No sensible person would have chosen the system, knowing the difficulties it would cause with many of the intended crews. So Yes it seems likely that a keen amateur stargazer kicked off the process.

 

The naming process may have taken some time and everyone in the office was given a go. Some would have jotted down names then and there, others would have spent time to go to their local library and see what books they could find,

 

That does not mean that Office staff could not have gone and looked at a variety of publications of vastly different depths of accuracy or relevance to come up with offerings, and then come back with whatever factoids they had picked up.

Edited July 28, 2012 by antarmike

[Laurence Hogg]

Theia/Thea - I don't know how long this concept has been around - since the 30's? Dunno.

 

Yes, I concede your point of Tucana/Toucan, but I do still maintain that the average person 'in the office', back in the mid-30s would not have had the range of knowledge that is evident in the list of 'Star class' boats.

 

I think you should look into the background of the GUCCo & GUCCCo chairman W H Curtiss and of course Leslie Morton, both very educated men who had risen to the top of their trades before dimissing their knowledge, it may have been 1930 but these guys were the "Eddie Stobart's" of their day. They were building a (then) very modern canal and fleet of boats, this wasnt a backyard company it actually placed the largest ever order with British shipbuilders for the number of craft involved.

[Catrin]

Theia was proposed first in 2000 according to what I have googled....

OK, fair enough. That would make sense, because I think that the impact theory of the Moon's creation is relatively recent - definitely after the Moon landings because part of the evidence is the relative abundances of elements in the crusts of the two bodies. No, sorry, I have no idea. I concede that this would suggest someone who had some knowledge of classical education, by analogy with Hyperion, Phoebe, Rhea, etc.

 

But... sorry, even today, after Cassini and Hubble, the vast majority of people would not know these names as relevant. I still think that there was some reference to a list/book of some kind - which I think would explain the mixed nature of the list. Alhough I agree there may have been input from 'people in the office'. I still maintain that some of the things are too unusual to come from classical mythology, or from 'general knowledge'.

 

PS - I've just realised two things. 1) there is far more to your post than I originally realised, and I agree with what you have said 2) I am very tired and I ache all over having 'taken a look' yesterday, and it is definitely time for bed.

[Derek R.]

Halton Station, Runcorn. Right by the Weaver Navigation. Opened 1851, closed to passengers 1952. Buildings extant as private residence.

 

There was a branch that ran from Wendover Station to the RAF camp at Halton, Bucks., but built for supplies. A narrow gauge railway with an interesting history HERE.

 

I'd be inclined to think the Runcorn Halton would have been foremost in 'naming thoughts' being close to Weston Point docks. But who knows.

[Timleech]

Halton Station, Runcorn. Right by the Weaver Navigation. Opened 1851, closed to passengers 1952. Buildings extant as private residence.

 

There was a branch that ran from Wendover Station to the RAF camp at Halton, Bucks., but built for supplies. A narrow gauge railway with an interesting history HERE.

 

I'd be inclined to think the Runcorn Halton would have been foremost in 'naming thoughts' being close to Weston Point docks. But who knows.

 

There's an apparent slip in the text, where it refers to (nearby) Norton station platforms. Norton was also closed for many years, but Runcorn East station was opened on almost the same site as part of the 'New Town' development.

 

Tim

[antarmike]

Halton Station, Runcorn. Right by the Weaver Navigation. Opened 1851, closed to passengers 1952. Buildings extant as private residence.

 

There was a branch that ran from Wendover Station to the RAF camp at Halton, Bucks., but built for supplies. A narrow gauge railway with an interesting history HERE.

 

I'd be inclined to think the Runcorn Halton would have been foremost in 'naming thoughts' being close to Weston Point docks. But who knows.

I was aware of this railway but quote "Although primarily a freight line (into RAF Halton camp) the Halton Light Railway did carry unofficial passengers."Unquote I therefore assumed it would not appear in Bradshaws, which presumably it did not or a choice of three (or five see later post)Haltons would have been offered to us by the proponents of the "Bradshaw's theory.

 

(Bradshaw's was a collection of passenger service timetables, and there were no scheduled passenger services on this branch, so although I have no way of checking I presume that it does not appear.)

Edited July 29, 2012 by antarmike

[Paul H]

Whilst wary of getting involved in idle speculation, perhaps I can give my thoughts:

 

Firstly, I don't thing the GUCCC boat names were slected with any particular degree of care as a modern organisation such as the GU used numbers for their boat control - the names were presumably only for the convenience of the boatmen and the public health authorities. I don't believe the names were selected from a railway timetable, AA guide or any kind of index - they are far too random for that. If you were given an ordered list of several thousand place names surely you would have selected them on some criteria such as waterside names or not wandered into Ireland? Similarly you would have avoided names that were to similar such as Hadley and Hagley or names which were akwardly long to signwrite like Gainsborough.

 

No I subscribe to the view that they were thought up on the spur of the moment by the office staff. Leslie Morton, the manager, I believe lived in Epsom so he obviously tossed that one into the hat along with the nearby Banstead, Sutton, Surbiton, Tadworth, Barnes, Purley etc. Of course most of the names had railway station connections - most places had stations and in the time before mass car ownership these were likely to be the only places people had heard of or been to. Perhaps a secretary had been born in Belfast.

 

The so -called Star class boats are even more interesting particularly as some of the names seem to have little to do with astronomy. I'm not sure how highly educated Leslie Morton was but if he ran away to sea at 14 I don't think too much can be made of this. In any case, it is unlikely that he had an esoteric knowledge of astronomy or owned a very odd book in which the index omitted major stars and constellations but listed obscure craters. What undoubtedly he did have knowledge of though was shipping and googling some of the odder boat names brings up a surprising number of ships both merchant and navy from the early part of the last century which share the names. So my suggestion is that whilst he intended to name them after stars etc, the actual names were selected not from the index of an astronomy book but from something like Lloyds List or Janes Fighting Ships. (The only flaw in the theory is that some of the craters were USS warships of WW2 but quite possible earlier names were re-used.)

 

Food for thought anyway.

 

Paul

Edited July 29, 2012 by Paul H

[Derek R.]

It would seem there were around (dodgy reference) 174 boats built as 'Star Class' by the various builders (butties included), and I have an Atlas of the Universe by Thomas Nelson and Sons printed in 1961 with some listings. Clearly post the era we are looking at, but it does have certain lists. Amongst a full page of Constellations there are numbered 88 with both Latin names and English. Of course this book would not have been used, and it is not a definitive scientific work, more for the interested amateur - but such must have gone before. A great many boat names appear, but many listed do not. Individual Stars are listed in other sections, and I suppose with the inclusion of the Zodiacal signs, a few more would have been grabbed. I'm sure that any desire to gather names from heavenly bodies and associated elements would inevitably led to the seeking of such books. Many and varied might have been the sources.

 

Derek

[alan_fincher]

There was a branch that ran from Wendover Station to the RAF camp at Halton, Bucks., but built for supplies. A narrow gauge railway with an interesting history HERE.

 

From the article it looks that would be better worded....

 

"There was a branch that ran from Wendover Station to the RAF camp at Halton, Bucks., but built for supplies, and also a narrow gauge railway with an interesting history"

 

The text refers to "The timber was transferred from the tipper trucks to the standard gauge wagons ready to be taken to Wendover Station, and the picture taken at closure clearly shows the standard, rather than narrow gauge line.

[antarmike]

I am surprised West Halton Railway station, on the North Lindsey light Railway, Or East Halton Railway Station on the Great Central hasn't been thrown in to the list of possibles.

(not that I think they had anything to do with the naming of the boat)

West Halton Railway Station

East halton Railway Station

Edited July 29, 2012 by antarmike