GUCCC Town Class Names

[Derek R.]

 

From the article it looks that would be better worded....

 

"There was a branch that ran from Wendover Station to the RAF camp at Halton, Bucks., but built for supplies, and also a narrow gauge railway with an interesting history"

 

The text refers to "The timber was transferred from the tipper trucks to the standard gauge wagons ready to be taken to Wendover Station, and the picture taken at closure clearly shows the standard, rather than narrow gauge line.

 

Yes it did seem a bit contradictory to what I recall from having walked some of the track bed. The former level crossing gates were still extant when I lived almost next door in Castle Park Road, and everything seemed to point to standard gauge, so reading the text again - it appears that the 'narrow gauge' railway was that set up to fecth the timber from Rothschild's estate, down to the supply yard where it was loaded onto standard gauge for despatch to Wendover. That sounds more like it! It's all in the last paragraph above the picture of the shunter - that is shown with crew aboard, a standard gauge wagon behind, and definitely not narrow gauge track!

 

PS I think I just said what you said

Edited July 29, 2012 by Derek R.

[Laurence Hogg]

AND AGAIN,

Why would a modern canal company associate itself with Railway station names a system to which it traded in opposittion?

It doesnt make sense.

A 1930 copy of Newnes "The open road" contains the majority of the same names but once again is showing allegance to "road transport, but then GUCCCo Ltd did have a fleet of lorry's for onward delivery,

however they had no railway connectons at all.

Remember too they stopped short of the BCN (railway owned) by having their depot at Sampson Rd (Camp Hill).

[alan_fincher]

Yes it did seem a bit contradictory to what I recall from having walked some of the track bed. The former level crossing gates were still extant when I lived almost next door in Castle Park Road, and everything seemed to point to standard gauge, so reading the text again - it appears that the 'narrow gauge' railway was that set up to fecth the timber from Rothschild's estate, down to the supply yard where it was loaded onto standard gauge for despatch to Wendover. That sounds more like it! It's all in the last paragraph above the picture of the shunter - that is shown with crew aboard, a standard gauge wagon behind, and definitely not narrow gauge track!

 

PS I think I just said what you said

 

As Halton, (Bucks) on the Wendover Arm has got a mention, and your raillway article mentions German POWs in WW1, I can't resist an opportunity to post one of my favourite photos from the "Fincher" archives.....

 

 

On the left is my Grandfather, Harry Fincher, (1885 - 1951), and he is supervising German POWs at Halton. They were being made to make parts for aircraft for the Royal Flying Corps, (I'm not sure I would have wanted to fly a plane where the enemy was helping make the bits!)

 

Despite being profoundly deaf, he was himself enlisted into the RFC - this should not have been allowed, but his military record on admission fails to mention he is stone deaf! Presumably his skills as a trained carpenter were considered enough in demand to turn a blind eye to the fact he couldn't actually hear what anyone was saying. Here he is again - he is the member of my family I would most have liked to have met, but he died before I was born.......

 

[antarmike]

 

As Halton, (Bucks) on the Wendover Arm has got a mention, and your raillway article mentions German POWs in WW1, I can't resist an opportunity to post one of my favourite photos from the "Fincher" archives.....

 

 

On the left is my Grandfather, Harry Fincher, (1885 - 1951), and he is supervising German POWs at Halton. They were being made to make parts for aircraft for the Royal Flying Corps, (I'm not sure I would have wanted to fly a plane where the enemy was helping make the bits!)

 

Despite being profoundly deaf, he was himself enlisted into the RFC - this should not have been allowed, but his military record on admission fails to mention he is stone deaf! Presumably his skills as a trained carpenter were considered enough in demand to turn a blind eye to the fact he couldn't actually hear what anyone was saying.

Alan, I have only just noticed but there are three RAF personnel in the photo and three German prisoners in the photo (based on who is wearing British puttees or Tunic and cap and who is wearing boots and German field caps) so it is one to one supervision, and therefore there are other people who presumably can hear what is going on and who able to help our grandfather!

Edited July 29, 2012 by antarmike

[antarmike]

Back to Stars...Can anyone connect Ethiopia with any celestial connection? My limited resaerch (well google) cannot find a connection so is this one total nonsense?

 

Ethiopia is credited with originating Astrology? Quote "The Ethiopians were the first who invented the science of stars, and gave names to the planets, not at random and without meaning, but descriptive of the qualities which they conceived them to possess..." unquote.

 

Ethiopia and the Origin of Civilization Part 2

By John G. Jackson (1939)

 

Is the fact that the Ethiopians came up with the first Zodiac really the connection that arrives at Ethiopia as a Star class name? Can any one find a better connection?

 

Phosphorus (Walkers Small Ricky Butty) is the Greek name for the Morning Star. The Morning Star is not a star but the planet Venus. Venus has been given to one of the two prototype wooden Stars Motors built by H&W Again we have two different names for the same object, indicating to me that a single person did not draw up the list (ref Tucana/ Toucan)

 

It gets worse because Hesperus (small ricky Motor) is the Greek for the evening star...Which is also the planet Venus! Did one person really pick all the names?

 

But in mitigation Hesperus was intended to be paired with Phosphorus (so morning and evening star were a pair) I presume this was intentional.

 

Isis is another Lunar crater.

 

Tama-nui-te-rā is the The Māori word for the personification of the Sun and from this comes the Māori word for 'sun' or 'day' which is rā,

 

Ra was the Egyptian sun-god.

 

But as far as I know there is no scientific usage that links Ra to any celestial body (or even to the Sun.)

 

So Ra appears to have some vague connection with the Sun but again Sun appears as a seperate name. Another example of two names for the same object or another totally unconnected name?? Can any one connect Ra?

 

Penelope is the fourth largest impact crater on Tethys, which is one of Saturn's moons. (now that is a weird choice!)

Edited July 29, 2012 by antarmike

[Heartland]

It remains an interesting suggestion, that a railway publication like Bradshaw or the Station Handbook might have been a source of the naming. But I would have also thought a suitable choice of names might have been influenced by the places the GUCCC served. However the origin of a name such as BILSTER needs further consideration. If they used a directory then it is reasonable to assume the spelling would be correct.

 

Ray Shill

[Tuscan]

I agree it's difficult to imagne that misspelt names would remain even if here was an original mistake. Without some form of corroberation I think we are just going to bandy around ideas, I would love to know the answer. Like Laurence I just can't accept that they would base the names around their chief economic rival.

[Paul H]

Whilst wary of getting involved in idle speculation, perhaps I can give my thoughts:

 

Firstly, I don't thing the GUCCC boat names were slected with any particular degree of care as a modern organisation such as the GU used numbers for their boat control - the names were presumably only for the convenience of the boatmen and the public health authorities. I don't believe the names were selected from a railway timetable, AA guide or any kind of index - they are far too random for that. If you were given an ordered list of several thousand place names surely you would have selected them on some criteria such as waterside names or not wandered into Ireland? Similarly you would have avoided names that were to similar such as Hadley and Hagley or names which were akwardly long to signwrite like Gainsborough.

 

No I subscribe to the view that they were thought up on the spur of the moment by the office staff. Leslie Morton, the manager, I believe lived in Epsom so he obviously tossed that one into the hat along with the nearby Banstead, Sutton, Surbiton, Tadworth, Barnes, Purley etc. Of course most of the names had railway station connections - most places had stations and in the time before mass car ownership these were likely to be the only places people had heard of or been to. Perhaps a secretary had been born in Belfast.

 

The so -called Star class boats are even more interesting particularly as some of the names seem to have little to do with astronomy. I'm not sure how highly educated Leslie Morton was but if he ran away to sea at 14 I don't think too much can be made of this. In any case, it is unlikely that he had an esoteric knowledge of astronomy or owned a very odd book in which the index omitted major stars and constellations but listed obscure craters. What undoubtedly he did have knowledge of though was shipping and googling some of the odder boat names brings up a surprising number of ships both merchant and navy from the early part of the last century which share the names. So my suggestion is that whilst he intended to name them after stars etc, the actual names were selected not from the index of an astronomy book but from something like Lloyds List or Janes Fighting Ships. (The only flaw in the theory is that some of the craters were USS warships of WW2 but quite possible earlier names were re-used.)

 

Food for thought anyway.

 

Paul

[Catrin]

Back to Stars...Can anyone connect Ethiopia with any celestial connection? My limited resaerch (well google) cannot find a connection so is this one total nonsense?

 

Ethiopia is credited with originating Astrology? Quote "The Ethiopians were the first who invented the science of stars, and gave names to the planets, not at random and without meaning, but descriptive of the qualities which they conceived them to possess..." is this really the connection that arrives at Ethiopia as a Star class name?

 

Phosphorus (Walkers Small Ricky Butty)is the Greek name for the Morning Star. The Morning Star is not a star but the planet Venus. Venus has been given to one of the two prototype wooden Stars Motors built by H&W Again we have two different names for the same object, indicating to me that a single person did not draw up the list (ref Tucana/ Toucan)

 

It gets worse because Hesperus (small ricky Motor) is the Greek for the evening star...Which is also the planet Venus! Did one person really pick all the names?

 

But in mitigation Hesperus was intended to be paired with Phosphorus (so morning and evening star were a pair) I presume this was intentional.

 

Isis is another Lunar crater.

 

Ra is the Māori name for the Sun and again Sun appears as a seperate name . Another example of two names for the same object?? Ra was the Egyptian sun-god.

 

Butas far as I know there is no scientific usage that links Ra to any celestial body.

 

Penelope is the fourth largest impact crater on Tethys, which is one of Saturn's moons. (now that is a weird choice!)

 

OK, no idea about Ethiopia, and I did wonder about asteroids, satellites, etc for Ra, although it doesn't ring a bell with me. However, I have a complete outside suggestion for Ra (a bit tongue-in-cheek). RA in astronomy is Right Ascension - used with Declination to give the exact position of a star in the 'celestial sphere'. Anyone reading an index of an astronomy book, who didn't actually know much astronomy, or bother to look the word up, might think that it was a celestial object.

[Derek R.]

In Greek mythology the King of Ethiopia was Cepheus. More here.

 

PS: RA, was the Sun God. There is mention of him sailing across the sky in a barque, which brings a thought that 'Barque' could be Bargus?

Edited July 29, 2012 by Derek R.

[ChimneyChain]

Ive just looked at a astrological chart from the 1930s that has almost every star class boat on it; could it not be as simple as someone bringing in the chart to work and another saying "ooh I like that name, ooh I like that one as well" right put those two on the list jim. The same can be said for towns, or would that just be to simple an explanation??

 

Darren

[Derek R.]

Quite possible Darren, do you have a publisher or any other details?

[magpie patrick]

Ive just looked at a astrological chart from the 1930s that has almost every star class boat on it; could it not be as simple as someone bringing in the chart to work and another saying "ooh I like that name, ooh I like that one as well" right put those two on the list jim. The same can be said for towns, or would that just be to simple an explanation??

 

Darren

 

No it wouldn't, one of the best things to do is look at the culture of the time. If someone asked me to start a "Town Class" today it would start with Frome, Chorley and Marple, and probably move onto a a number of towns with football clubs at level 4 to 7 of the non-league game, Chard, Stocksbridge etc. Someone would wonder why Marple was in there (it has no such club) and perhaps Barry Town (folded, much mourned) and then perhaps why Weymouth was not (the wife's ex is a supporter). On such fickle things do such matters hang.

[antarmike]

Ive just looked at a astrological chart from the 1930s that has almost every star class boat on it; could it not be as simple as someone bringing in the chart to work and another saying "ooh I like that name, ooh I like that one as well" right put those two on the list jim. The same can be said for towns, or would that just be to simple an explanation??

 

Darren

Almost every? Does it have Ra, Argon, Ethiopia, Bargus or the craters such as Isis?

 

It can't be that simple, Meteor, Comet, satellite would not appear on an astrological chart, nor would Zenith or Zodiac

 

Woods built a prototype pair named Jupiter and Mars, The two production pairs they built were Pleione, Praesepe, Pleiades and Penelope.

 

It has been suggested that H&W were allocated a letter range for the Towns as were Yarwoods.

 

Did the boat builders have a say in the naming, I wonder a bit tongue in cheek if Woods named the first pair after planets, not stars, got told off for getting it wrong so they went for something a bit more esoteric next time!

Edited July 29, 2012 by antarmike

[antarmike]

It remains an interesting suggestion, that a railway publication like Bradshaw or the Station Handbook might have been a source of the naming. But I would have also thought a suitable choice of names might have been influenced by the places the GUCCC served. However the origin of a name such as BILSTER needs further consideration. If they used a directory then it is reasonable to assume the spelling would be correct.

 

Ray Shill

As a previous owner of Bilster I have tried to work out what went wrong, I think it is Peter Picked a Peck of Pickled Pepper...syndrome. Tongue twisters catch you out because there is repetition of similar sounds and the brain can't keep up and will slip in the wrong ending to a word.

 

If a list was being transcribed someone might have read it out to someone else, The name immediately in front of Bilster is Bicester, I think in going down the list whoever read out the list similarly attached the name ending they had just used ""ster" on the end of Bilston by mistake.

 

Everyone knows how to spell Galaxy. it is a simple word but whatever checks were in place that came out as Glaxy. Bilster could have been picked from a Map, Bradshaws, plan of the canal system, whatever as Bilston and still at the last transcription it ends up getting cocked up.

 

Face it we have spell checkers on our computers and most of us still manage to post misspelled words from time to time!

Edited July 29, 2012 by antarmike

[Laurence Hogg]

I was told years ago that "Bargus" was a joke, inventing a constellation that looked like a barge!

[Heartland]

I did wonder if the naming was the responsibility of the builder and spelling errors in their area. However, Bilster was Harland & Wolfe of 1936, steel and Glossor a wooden boat made by Walkers of Rickmansworth, 1938. So I suppose there must have been a master list drawn up by the GUC.Perhaps it was that old fashioned typo error!

 

Ray Shill

[Laurence Hogg]

I did wonder if the naming was the responsibility of the builder and spelling errors in their area. However, Bilster was Harland & Wolfe of 1936, steel and Glossor a wooden boat made by Walkers of Rickmansworth, 1938. So I suppose there must have been a master list drawn up by the GUC.Perhaps it was that old fashioned typo error!

 

Ray Shill

HARLAND & WOLFF Ray!

See spelling still goos wrung today!

[Heartland]

Yup, must be consistent.

 

Ray Shill

[ChimneyChain]

Almost every? Does it have Ra, Argon, Ethiopia, Bargus or the craters such as Isis?

 

It can't be that simple, Meteor, Comet, satellite would not appear on an astrological chart, nor would Zenith or Zodiac

 

Woods built a prototype pair named Jupiter and Mars, The two production pairs they built were Pleione, Praesepe, Pleiades and Penelope.

 

It has been suggested that H&W were allocated a letter range for the Towns as were Yarwoods.

 

Did the boat builders have a say in the naming, I wonder a bit tongue in cheek if Woods named the first pair after planets, not stars, got told off for getting it wrong so they went for something a bit more esoteric next time!

 

 

No it probably didn't have all those on the chart that you listed, but they must have been wrote down in a book somewhere and if someone was asked to pick out X number of names out of a book it couldn't have been that hard to do especially if they had no prior knowledge of the subject. And that's why i think there is such a different assortment of boat names. Somebody just liked the name regardless if it was a star or not. What do you think to that then???

 

Darren

[Derek R.]

If it sounds like a heavenly body - then it must be one. I'll settle for that. Being part and parcel of the 'constellation' would be enough for many and so we have the 'Star class' - easier to say.

 

S'what happens when you can't sleep. Now, who else can I annoy . . .

[antarmike]

If it sounds like a heavenly body - then it must be one. I'll settle for that. Being part and parcel of the 'constellation' would be enough for many and so we have the 'Star class' - easier to say.

 

S'what happens when you can't sleep. Now, who else can I annoy . . .

And does Ethiopia really sound like a heavenly body?

Edited July 30, 2012 by antarmike

[Athy]

Yesterday I saw the Mikron Theatre Company in their boat 'Tyseley' (definitely a railway location!) at Cropredy lock. I asked whether the boat was a converted working boat and the steerer replied that as far as she knew, it was built in 1974 and had been a restaurant boat before becoming the theatre company's base. Is this so, or was the restaurant boat itself a conversion of a "Town" class working boat?

[IanM]

Yesterday I saw the Mikron Theatre Company in their boat 'Tyseley' (definitely a railway location!) at Cropredy lock. I asked whether the boat was a converted working boat and the steerer replied that as far as she knew, it was built in 1974 and had been a restaurant boat before becoming the theatre company's base. Is this so, or was the restaurant boat itself a conversion of a "Town" class working boat?

 

I'm fairly sure that Tyseley is the Town class boat.

 

Edited to add:

 

According to the National Historic Ships Register...

 

"TYSELEY is a narrow boat, commissioned by the Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. (GUCCCL) and built by W.J.Yarwood & Sons Ltd. at Northwich in 1937. She was registered at Rickmansworth as number 149 and worked as fleet number 183. She was one of the Town Class designs and her hull is of riveted steel. She has a pointed bow and a counter stern. Her current engine is a Russell Newbury DM2 water cooled diesel, two cylinders and 18 brake horsepower, made in 1985.

 

She worked for GUCCCL until she passed under the ownership of British Waterways, finishing her commercial days on the cement run from Long Itchington to Camp Hill. From 1937 to 1954, the Brooks family ran TYSELEY. Her butties included UTTOXETER, ACHILLES, BORDESLEY, BRIGHTON and BARNES.

 

Subsequently, TYSELEY was owned by Midland Canal Transport and then was converted to become the first ever restaurant boat based at Thrupp on the South Oxford Canal. Since 1975, she has been the base and publicity vehicle for a touring theatre company."

Edited July 30, 2012 by IanM

[Athy]

THank you Ian.