Pump out

[sueb]

To be clear on this;

 

I am satisfied that in most cases the "Unsuitable for SPO" means that the sanitary station is genuinely unsuitable. I do, however, accept that there will be some cases where BW have made a sani-station no-SPO for other reasons.

 

As to why increasing SPO use increases the number of sanitary stations that are unsuitable for SPO.....

 

Apart from those sanitary stations that are connected to particularly small septic tanks, most sanitary stations CAN cope with the overload caused by the occasional self pump-out.

 

When SPO was a rarity, and the sani station got such a load once a week, it could cope. As SPO becomes more widespread, and we move towards one a day, it can no longer cope.

 

What are BW supposed (realistically) to do? The sanitary station can only accomodate one SPO a week, and 7 people want to do a SPO. It isn't going to work, so they prohibit SPO.

Or empty the facility more often to cope with the needs of their customers.

Sue

[mayalld]

Or empty the facility more often to cope with the needs of their customers.

Sue

 

Two problems there;

 

1) If the facility is a septic tank, it isn't about emptying it more often. A septic system has an upper limit of what it can handle. Go beyond that limit and it stops working and discharges untreated effluent into the environment.

2) If the facility is a storage tank, regular emptying cost money, and BW isn't awash with money. Given that SPO users are capable of going longer between emptying than cassette users, they should empty at suitable sites. To do otherwise is selfish.

[RLWP]

I'm an Engineer not a physicist. I don't do that many decimal places.

 

How refreshing. So for you, like me, Pi is as near as damn it 3, and the world is flat?

 

Richard

[blodger]

To be clear on this;

 

I am satisfied that in most cases the "Unsuitable for SPO" means that the sanitary station is genuinely unsuitable. I do, however, accept that there will be some cases where BW have made a sani-station no-SPO for other reasons.

 

As to why increasing SPO use increases the number of sanitary stations that are unsuitable for SPO.....

 

Apart from those sanitary stations that are connected to particularly small septic tanks, most sanitary stations CAN cope with the overload caused by the occasional self pump-out.

 

When SPO was a rarity, and the sani station got such a load once a week, it could cope. As SPO becomes more widespread, and we move towards one a day, it can no longer cope.

 

What are BW supposed (realistically) to do? The sanitary station can only accomodate one SPO a week, and 7 people want to do a SPO. It isn't going to work, so they prohibit SPO.

Thanks for your clarification of your understanding. I presume though that you are only talking about sceptic/settling tank Elsans and not those mains sewer connected. I see no reason why the latter should be 'unsuitable for SPO' noticed just for conformity/standardised rules reasons as seems to be being suggested. That would be/is a step too far by BW that is unfair and discriminatory and possibly smacks of protection of its marina/electric card PO sideline interests methinks.

 

I am with SUEB in terms of capacity increase to accomodate SPO if practical.

 

I am with Alan Fincher in terms of we need a national guide to Elsan & PO availability and where SPO is OK, etc, so that the facts therein rather than disparate opinions and the cassette versus pump-out conundrum informs.

 

It is a pity that BW does not contribute to fora such as these to nip in the bud any misconceptions that may arise from time to time and here in respect of their stance on SPO!

[luctor et emergo]

why don't they charge from start to finish? would make more sense.

 

In fact you could even charge for pumping out porta-elsans it'd only take a few seconds, maybe 25p?. on the other hand someone who wanted to pump a ton of 'recycled tesco products' might get charged £25 which would seem only fair as they have 100 times as much product in their tank......

 

they do diesel like that. seems sort of sensible.

 

 

The trouble with this is that you would either need a pump that can measure the amount pumped, which is not easy because of the solids that are encountered, or you need to use a separate smaller tank, with volume markings, where you pump the holding tank contents into before emptying that one into the bulk tank. A further option ould be to go by weight (which is how milk is measured at the dairies) , but that would involve instaling weighing scales under the holding tanks etc, which would make it prohibitively expensive.

 

I am going to start with a single price per pump-out, and per cassette, and will see how the averages work out. I may go for the smaller tank with volume markings in the end.

[mayalld]

Thanks for your clarification of your understanding. I presume though that you are only talking about sceptic/settling tank Elsans and not those mains sewer connected. I see no reason why the latter should be 'unsuitable for SPO' noticed just for conformity/standardised rules reasons as seems to be being suggested. That would be/is a step too far by BW that is unfair and discriminatory and possibly smacks of protection of its marina/electric card PO sideline interests methinks.

 

I would like to think that protecting income is NOT one of the reasons that comes into play when deciding that a sanitary station is unsuitable, but I accept that there will be cases where vested interests come into play.

 

I am pretty sure that there are cases where the no-SPO has been imposed as a result of complaints about the state a sani station has been left in once too often by a careless SPO, and equally I am sure that some of those complaints have been "helped" along by vested interests of local businesses!

 

There is also the question of sanitary stations that have a BW card-operated pump out being marked as no-SPO. I am in two minds about these. Clearly these locations are on mains drainage, and could cope with SPO, but BW are taking the attitude that an adequate provision for pump-out is available (the pay machine), and that as such people shouldn't be trailing hoses into the elsan point. There is an argument to be had as to whether that position is protecting income or keeping the facilities tidy.

 

By far the best suggestion that I've seen so far in this debate is that where a facility is capable of acommodating the volume from a SPO, it should be provided with a connection point for the outlet hose of a SPO. This connection would be a standard fitting, and SPO at these locations would only be allowed by connecting to this point. This would address the issue of the potential for a mess, but would require all SPO users to modify their kit to connect to these fittings. Strikes me as a fair compromise....

[alan_fincher]

There is also the question of sanitary stations that have a BW card-operated pump out being marked as no-SPO. I am in two minds about these. Clearly these locations are on mains drainage, and could cope with SPO, but BW are taking the attitude that an adequate provision for pump-out is available (the pay machine), and that as such people shouldn't be trailing hoses into the elsan point. There is an argument to be had as to whether that position is protecting income or keeping the facilities tidy.

A question only - I don't know the answer.

 

Is it necessarily true that BW only provide card operated pump-outs where mains drainage is available ?

 

Our old (non BW) marina (for example) had a pump-out facility, (using tokens bought in the chandlery), that definitely empties into a tank, as there is no mains drainage at the site.

 

I would assume this is the case at many private facilities, and wouldn't necessarily have assumed that BW card operated facilities necessarily always had access to mains drainage.

 

Presumably if it's good business for a private marina to offer a a facility that empties into a tank, even though they have to pay emptying costs, then BW could still easily break even doing the same, given they tend to charge a similar rate per pump-out.

[magpie patrick]

A question only - I don't know the answer.

 

Is it necessarily true that BW only provide card operated pump-outs where mains drainage is available ?

 

Our old (non BW) marina (for example) had a pump-out facility, (using tokens bought in the chandlery), that definitely empties into a tank, as there is no mains drainage at the site.

I would assume this is the case at many private facilities, and wouldn't necessarily have assumed that BW card operated facilities necessarily always had access to mains drainage.

 

 

Saul Marina's pump out us also not on a mains sewer, and I suspect the BW one out on the canal outside the marina isn't either. At the marina, t'gaux lorry turns up once every week or so to empty it(both pump out and elsan can be emptied here) This is separate from the shower block and toilets, which have a digestive system. There are dire warnings that if you empty your elsan into the digestive system (1) the system will have to be closed and(2) you will be hung drawn and quartered and your head placed on a pike at the marina entrance

 

Presumably if it's good business for a private marina to offer a a facility that empties into a tank, even though they have to pay emptying costs, then BW could still easily break even doing the same, given they tend to charge a similar rate per pump-out.

 

Which would also justify banning self pump out at such a location as BW's costs are more or less the same.

[Lady Muck]

They aren't on mains drainage at Stonebridge, we have no sewage main, even the lock cottages and cafe use septic tanks and there is one solitary water pipe which is woefully inadequate for the amount of people that use it (fill your boat up with water and no one in the lock cottages can get any water out of their taps - hopeless!) - it's because we are essentially on an island, with Pymmes Brooke on one side and the Lee navigation , reservoirs, the lee Valley storm drain and the old river course on the other.

BTW, pump out cards are for sale in the cafe - it's right next to the pump out machine and is open 9-4pm, six days a week, closed Mondays.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Lady Muck

[mayalld]

A question only - I don't know the answer.

 

Is it necessarily true that BW only provide card operated pump-outs where mains drainage is available ?

 

Our old (non BW) marina (for example) had a pump-out facility, (using tokens bought in the chandlery), that definitely empties into a tank, as there is no mains drainage at the site.

 

I would assume this is the case at many private facilities, and wouldn't necessarily have assumed that BW card operated facilities necessarily always had access to mains drainage.

 

Presumably if it's good business for a private marina to offer a a facility that empties into a tank, even though they have to pay emptying costs, then BW could still easily break even doing the same, given they tend to charge a similar rate per pump-out.

 

I am now better informed!

 

Clearly costs must be a factor in deciding whether to allow SPO at such locations.

[nb Innisfree]

What density are you using for the contents ?

 

If it were water, surely 1 cubic metre would be one metric tonne.

 

So 1.16 cu mtrs ought to be 1.16 tonnes ?

 

Have you used a hydrometer to mesure the specify gravity of your holding tank ?

 

Pass

[WotEver]

How refreshing. So for you, like me, Pi is as near as damn it 3, and the world is flat?

 

Richard

I've always worked on the assumption that Pi is 3 and a little bit.

[blodger]

I am now better informed!

 

Clearly costs must be a factor in deciding whether to allow SPO at such locations.

The ecofan poll will I think result in more Ecofan sales.

 

Would a poll(s) allied to this thread be useful to at least gain more information?

 

For example

 

One for cassette users asking about their happiness to share their Elsans with SPOers tied to asking what improvements would make it feasible if it is not.

 

One for pump-out boats asking if they have SPO whether they would like to, whether they use it, the obstacles to doing so, what improvements are needed, etc

 

Need not as usual be scientific, might be helpful if locations where SPO is OK can be identified, etc

 

I am guessing that very few have invested in SPO but more would (with boating getting more expensive) if it were not, it seems to me, discouraged/held in horror.

 

Since I seem to be championing SPO perhaps someone with different views and someone who can will set up a poll that illuminates on the debate here?

[Keeping Up]

How refreshing. So for you, like me, Pi is as near as damn it 3, and the world is flat?

 

Richard

Indeed.

 

Pi is certainly equal to 3. It even says so in the Bible (I Kings 7:23-26). In 1897 the state of Iowa actually passed a bill making Pi equal to 3 (the bill was later defeated in the Senate)

 

But of course Pi squared is equal to 10.

 

And the world has to be flat, otherwise obviously all the water would run out of the canals.

[ditchcrawler]

To be clear on this;

 

I am satisfied that in most cases the "Unsuitable for SPO" means that the sanitary station is genuinely unsuitable. I do, however, accept that there will be some cases where BW have made a sani-station no-SPO for other reasons.

 

As to why increasing SPO use increases the number of sanitary stations that are unsuitable for SPO.....

 

Apart from those sanitary stations that are connected to particularly small septic tanks, most sanitary stations CAN cope with the overload caused by the occasional self pump-out.

 

When SPO was a rarity, and the sani station got such a load once a week, it could cope. As SPO becomes more widespread, and we move towards one a day, it can no longer cope.

 

What are BW supposed (realistically) to do? The sanitary station can only accomodate one SPO a week, and 7 people want to do a SPO. It isn't going to work, so they prohibit SPO.

How about the Hotel Boat that pumps its tanks into 5 gallon containers then pours them down the Bucket and Chucket sani station not suitable for self pump out.

[mayalld]

How about the Hotel Boat that pumps its tanks into 5 gallon containers then pours them down the Bucket and Chucket sani station not suitable for self pump out.

 

Clearly they are abusing the facility.

[magpie patrick]

How about the Hotel Boat that pumps its tanks into 5 gallon containers then pours them down the Bucket and Chucket sani station not suitable for self pump out.

 

Is this a real example or a hypothetical one? It sounds like a lot of hard work

[blodger]

Clearly they are abusing the facility.

No, they are obeying the rules albeit a re-interpretation.

 

Some while back it was postulated that SPOs would have, in order to comply, SPO into a container and mt at each Elsan on route. In doing so, they are doing what cassetters do. If Elsans cannot cope therewith some upgrade would seem to be needed.

People are removing pump-outs and reverting to bucket & chucket for multi-various reasons. If SPO is to be illegalised I would consider doing so!

etc, etc

[mayalld]

No, they are obeying the rules albeit a re-interpretation.

 

Some while back it was postulated that SPOs would have, in order to comply, SPO into a container and mt at each Elsan on route. In doing so, they are doing what cassetters do. If Elsans cannot cope therewith some upgrade would seem to be needed.

People are removing pump-outs and reverting to bucket & chucket for multi-various reasons. If SPO is to be illegalised I would consider doing so!

etc, etc

 

That is a different prospect.

 

The scenario that was put forward was that a boat empties the entire tank into a single elsan disposal unit, by pumping it into containers and emptying all the containers at a single elsan point.

 

What you are suggesting is that you would pump out into containers, emptying a single container at each sani station en-route.

 

That isn't taking the piss, but frankly if you are going to do that, a cassette loo would be a better prospect in any case.

 

You do seem to be rather fixated on what the rules are, and whether BW are allowed to have such rule. However, this isn't really about rules, it is about practicality. What good does it do any of us if some idiot smugly announces that his behaviour is in compliance with the rules, despite the fact that it has put a sani-station out of action?

 

The simple truth is that there are many sanitary stations that have a relatively small capacity, and are only suitable for small volumes of effluent. Upgrading them would either be prohibitively expensive (which canal would you like them to close in order to free up funds) or simply impossible.

 

Let us suppose that you managed to agitate enough, and BW were compelled to make all sanitary stations suitable for SPO. Can you work out what would happen? All the sani-stations that couldn't be made compatible would close, and we would go from a situation where SPO users find it mildly inconvenient because not every sanitary station was OK for them, to a situation where there were parts of the network that boaters without a pumpout couldn't use.

[carlt]

You do seem to be rather fixated on what the rules are,

Could somebody tell me the best way to remove Tarte au Chocolat from my laptop screen, please?

[mayalld]

Could somebody tell me the best way to remove Tarte au Chocolat from my laptop screen, please?

 

:-)

 

Yes, yes, I know!

 

The thing is that, whilst I am all for the application of rules, that application must always take into account the laws of physics, which (of necessity) take precedence.

[blodger]

:-)

 

Yes, yes, I know!

 

The thing is that, whilst I am all for the application of rules, that application must always take into account the laws of physics, which (of necessity) take precedence.

 

I did not think it was me that was hung up on the rules. Unless there is some sort of penalty I see it as guidance which is only any use if it is sensible and reasoned!

 

In suggesting some sort of poll I was hoping to end my involvement in this thread but at least some concencus seems to be emerging from the bias.

 

A part of the law of physics is that with more boats there's more crap on the canal and it has to go somewhere. It is fortuitous for BW then that pump-outs came into being to relieve the pressure on it Elsan Points. However, if dissatisfaction with pump-outs for whatever reason means more boats reverting to Elsans and in any case it seems the system will eventually have to be overhauled and upgraded.

 

So, in the interim it seems logical to me and I will be happy provided that SPO is not proscribed where it does not have to be for the practical reasons to do with the inherent limitations of the outdated provision.

 

Regards

[Naughty Cal]

Could somebody tell me the best way to remove Tarte au Chocolat from my laptop screen, please?

 

Thats made my day as well

 

(Not the tarte)

[Ray]

Snip

 

Let us suppose that you managed to agitate enough, and BW were compelled to make all sanitary stations suitable for SPO. Can you work out what would happen? All the sani-stations that couldn't be made compatible would close, and we would go from a situation where SPO users find it mildly inconvenient because not every sanitary station was OK for them, to a situation where there were parts of the network that boaters without a pumpout couldn't use.

 

As Alan said some while ago, if BW produced a list of sanitary stations where SPO was permitted we would see whether the prohibition of SPO was at a minority, whereby it becomes a mild inconvenience, or a majority, where the level of inconvenience increases substabtially.

[sueb]

As Alan said some while ago, if BW produced a list of sanitary stations where SPO was permitted we would see whether the prohibition of SPO was at a minority, whereby it becomes a mild inconvenience, or a majority, where the level of inconvenience increases substabtially.

BW were asked for this six years ago, they may get round to it one day.

Sue