A Bit of an Eye Opener

[Momac]

9 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I think an argument could be made that new batteries doesnt warrant a PCA, but with lithiums its more than that surely? 

For many people it will involve a B2B charger and using a lead acid as a parallel 'source' battery. 

Does that warrant a PCA? Again, its opinion - and maybe Whilton are being over cautious?

Maybe they've been asked by some buyer's surveyors to provide PCAs for lithiums in recent times? (Especially if the boats have been more expensive ones).

Is it only Whilton asking about this, or is there a wider trend among brokers? 

 

 

I think most people know a lithium battery installation has to be done properly eg cant charge direct from an alternator .

However fitting a lithium battery doesn't seem to me  sufficient to warrant a PCA if the battery is for the normal domestic supply.

 

I would say a BSS pass after having directed the surveyors attention to the change would be sufficient. But yes its just opinion.

 

If the lithium battery is to power a motor which propels the boat that would be a conversion that requires a PCA.

.

[Tony1]

15 minutes ago, Momac said:

 

I think most people know a lithium battery installation has to be done properly eg cant charge direct from an alternator .

However fitting a lithium battery doesn't seem to me  sufficient to warrant a PCA if the battery is for the normal domestic supply.

 

I would say a BSS pass after having directed the surveyors attention to the change would be sufficient. But yes its just opinion.

 

If the lithium battery is to power a motor which propels the boat that would be a conversion that requires a PCA.

.

 

My last inspection was in Oct 2023, and as a conscientious citizen I did direct the examiner towards my lithium batteries.

To be fair, this happened after he said "are those lithium batteries?" 

 

He passed the boat, saying that there were no specific rules for lithiums at the moment, although he was expecting some rules before too long. 

And I did mention to the broker guy that the BSS pass included the lithiums, but he still did not want to get involved in putting the boat on brokerage. The real question, as I've said, is how many other brokers hold the same view?

As Nick said above, part of the problem is that BSS are taking so long to form their rules that by the time they decide what the rules are, half the boats on the system will have lithiums, and a large number of them may be immediately non-compliant. 

Insurers dont seem all that confident in setting requirements, and it seems like some brokers are now getting over-cautious about lithiums too. 

I beleive the technical term for what BSS are creating, by their delay and indecision on this issue, is a sh*t show. 

But God forbid that a UK regulator should have to make a speedy decision. Better to cause chaos, huge expense, and confusion in the related industries, rather than miss a dot from the top of an "i". 

 

 

Edited January 28 by Tony1

[Peanut]

This sounds suspiciously like the surveyor who finds, "signs of osmosis" in a GRP boat.

 

Essentially, a negotiating tactic to get the price down.

 

I was offered a narrowboat in the marina here for £25,000, a good price, mate's rates, as the owner was going to become a land dweller.

A brokerage, mentioned on here, took it away on a trailer for £17,000. I am quite sure I would look elsewhere for a buyer.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

I beleive the technical term for what BSS are creating, by their delay and indecision on this issue, is a sh*t show. 

But God forbid that a UK regulator should have to make a speedy decision. Better to cause chaos, huge expense, and confusion in the related industries, rather than miss a dot from the top of an "i". 

 

 

 

America innovates, China imitates, UK regulates, I notice.

 

Just sayin'...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28 by MtB

[David Mack]

Surely by now there are new boats being supplied with lithium batteries. Do they comply with the RCR?

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, David Mack said:

Surely by now there are new boats being supplied with lithium batteries. Do they comply with the RCR?

 

 

But, if they are, no doubt they will be complying with the ISO, which 'we', seem reluctant to do. 'We' want to DIY it

[Peugeot 106]

11 hours ago, Peanut said:

This sounds suspiciously like the surveyor who finds, "signs of osmosis" in a GRP boat

Or “signs of damp” in an old house

[Stilllearning]

15 hours ago, magnetman said:

If you put your Boat on brokerage at Whilton they will degrade it, buy it cheap and then put it back up for sale. 

 

Everybody knows this. 

 

 

I bought from Whilton and it was faultless, and a very good boat. 

[nicknorman]

Just now, Stilllearning said:

I bought from Whilton and it was faultless, and a very good boat. 

Heretic!

[magnetman]

Buying is rather different to selling. 

 

 

 

[cheesegas]

14 hours ago, Momac said:

I think most people know a lithium battery installation has to be done properly eg cant charge direct from an alternator .

Being a little pedantic here, but that's what insurance companies etc tend to catch you on - it's perfectly fine to charge a lithium direct from the alternator.

 

The difference is that you shouldn't do it with a standard alternator with an internal regulator as it's liable to overheat, and it'll hold the lithium at too high a voltage for optimum lifespan.

 

It's perfectly fine to charge directly from the alternator as long as you have an external regulator to monitor the alternator temperature and vary the output voltage as required by the battery.

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

But, if they are, no doubt they will be complying with the ISO, which 'we', seem reluctant to do. 'We' want to DIY it

I wonder if this was the case with the OP’s boat with the fitting of his lithium setup. What are the complying regs/iso’s for a Lithium installation?

Are brokers seeing diy fitouts of Lithium installations and quoting RCR/PCA to polity reject the boat from what they are seeing with the quality of work/diy?

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

I wonder if this was the case with the OP’s boat with the fitting of his lithium setup. What are the complying regs/iso’s for a Lithium installation?

Are brokers seeing diy fitouts of Lithium installations and quoting RCR/PCA to polity reject the boat from what they are seeing with the quality of work/diy?

 

More likely, it is their or their trade body's interpretation of what major modification might mean, and that won't get clarified until there is some case law.

[Mike Todd]

16 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

I've no idea about their business practices, although I do share some of your concerns there after seeing the offer they made to the guy next door.

But the real question is this- if they are now asking for this sort of paperwork, wont the other brokers also be asking for it? 

Hopefully my assumption is totally wrong - hopefully someone with a recent broker selling experience can comment on this?  

 

My impression is that Whilton operate in a very specific market that is rather different from that of most brokers. (That is not a criticism of either)

[matty40s]

13 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

In terms of the RCD, I would like to know if this is just Whilton asking for it, or if it is just boats of say 50k or over that they worry about, or whether there is a wider trend among brokers. 

Certainly if I was spending more than 40k on a boat now, I would at least ask if there was any RCD paperwork, and then make a decision. 

 

 

 

Most of the other brokers are steering clear of non RCD available boats, particularly post 2017 boats.

Whilton clearly defines on their website a single question, " RCD/RCR compliant" with a yes, no answer.

They have continued to sell "NO RCD" boats since last year, when the brokers met to discuss. ...and are still doing it now.

The salesperson/owner hoping to grab boats for as little as possible, citing PCR, RCD, RCR etc , is purely using those items as a scare tactic to drive down the price they will give you for your boat.....and then selling it at normal market value with the disclaimer attached at the bottom end of the boat description.

 

Your lithium, if done properly, doesn't necessarily need the £4k ish PCR(which covers the whole boat),it needs signing off as an installation that is safe and correctly installed, any competent, qualified boat electrician can do this.

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, matty40s said:

 

 

The salesperson/owner hoping to grab boats for as little as possible, citing PCR, RCD, RCR etc , is purely using those items as a scare tactic to drive down the price they will give you for your boat.....and then selling it at normal market value ...

Exactly. 

It is sharp practice which some people take a dim view of. 

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Your lithium, if done properly, doesn't necessarily need the £4k ish PCR(which covers the whole boat),it needs signing off as an installation that is safe and correctly installed, any competent, qualified boat electrician can do this.

 

And given the OP's lithium installation is very much a home-brew jobbie, totally 'off-piste', I don't think any "qualified boat electrician" would sign it off anyway. 

 

Out of interest, what qualifications would said "qualified boat electrician" need to sign off an installation? In fact what does "sign off" even mean? 

Edited January 29 by MtB
Speeling

[matty40s]

If Whilton are so keen to only sell boats which have the correct paperwork and are built properly...

Brand new 2024 Andicraft.

Apparently RCD/RCR Yes.

No fuel tank access hatch.

Stove too close to surround.

BSS due in ...December 2027??? I was under the impression that the RCR covered for 4 or even 5 years.

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

What are the complying regs/iso’s for a Lithium installation?

 

For electric propulsion (including batteries) There is a later version from 2016, and a revised/corrected 2016 version issued in 2021) which I do not have.

 

 

 

 

 

For general installation (domestics etc) of Lithium batteries

 

 

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

For electric propulsion (including batteries) There is a later version from 2016, and a revised/corrected 2016 version issued in 2021) which I do not have.

 

 

 

 

 

For general installation (domestics etc) of Lithium batteries

 

 

 

As previously stated, if the work is certified and signed off be a qualified person then there is no need for a full PCA. However if the fit is a diy mish mash by the owner and is blatantly so, then why would a broker risk it by putting it on his brokerage?

Edited January 29 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

[David Schweizer]

At the risk of hi-jacking this thread, may I please ask what are the benefits of replacing LA batteries with Lithium ones. We had two heavy duty Deep cycle US batteries in Helvetia, and they went on trouble free for years. They never ran down during usage and kept their charge consistently, they did not even require the electrolyte topping up for the first five or six years, and then it was only every few months (or more) when a small amount of de-ionised water was needed.

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

What get’s me is livaboards wanting all this connectivity with their batteries/charging system/solar so they can monitor it all from their iphone whilst sitting in their saloon 40ft away from the visual display😂 Have we all become a society of idle phone watchers?

Edited January 29 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

[magnetman]

To be fair if everyone was an idle phone watcher the climate catastrophe could probably be averted. 

 

Yes it uses energy and server storage but it would cut out transport which is known to be a major consumer and creator of pollution. 

 

Steel is the problem really. 

 

 

 

Its actually very energy efficient to use a smartphone. One can use the lamp on the back as main lighting out of hours. 

 

 

[Russ T]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

To be fair if everyone was an idle phone watcher the climate catastrophe could probably be averted. 

 

Yes it uses energy and server storage but it would cut out transport which is known to be a major consumer and creator of pollution. 

 

Steel is the problem really. 

 

 

 

Its actually very energy efficient to use a smartphone. One can use the lamp on the back as main lighting out of hours. 

 

 

There are some very interesting low tech solutions you linked to on that website on the other forum. 

[cheesegas]

38 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Your lithium, if done properly, doesn't necessarily need the £4k ish PCR(which covers the whole boat),it needs signing off as an installation that is safe and correctly installed, any competent, qualified boat electrician can do this.

The problem is that there's no decent universal qualification for boat electrics. There's the BMET one, which is pretty useless as it includes very little info and only lasts two days; the sort of course you can't fail, and is done purely so you can get PLI.

 

5 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

At the risk of hi-jacking this thread, may I please ask what are the benefits of replacing LA batteries with Lithium ones. 

All depends on how you use the boat. For someone who's on shore power most of the time, maybe doesn't live aboard, has a decent bit of solar and only goes on cruises in summer, moving every other day, there's not many benefits to lithium.

 

However, for someone who lives aboard year round, doesn't have shore power and moves maybe once a week, there's much more benefits. The main one is faster charging; lead needs a long period of constant voltage, low current charging to get from ~80% to full. Lithium will charge at high current, taking all the power the source can supply, right up until 98%. Fast charging is important if you're using a portable generator or the engine to charge, like in winter.

That means you can take 60ah out of a 100ah lithium battery and it'll take just over an hour to recharge with a 60a charger. Lead would take probably take four times that.

The other good thing is that lithium can be left at a partial state of charge indefinitely with no damage; this would soon sulphate a lead battery and kill it. My 560ah litihium has only been up to 100% a couple of times since October! You can also discharge it deeply again and again with no ill effects. Taking a lead acid down to 20% repeatedly and not recharging for a few days would kill it, but not so with lithium.

 

As they can accept high current right up until they're almost full, solar yields are higher in winter - a burst of sunshine can be fully utilised if the battery is at say 80%, rather than simply taking the voltage up to CV point as would happen with lead.