A Bit of an Eye Opener

[Tigerr]

On 28/01/2025 at 18:29, magnetman said:

If you put your Boat on brokerage at Whilton they will degrade it, buy it cheap and then put it back up for sale. 

 

Everybody knows this. 

 

 

This is a 'thing', with any brokerage.

You need to have a very trustworthy dealer. I sold my motorhome through a broker arrangement, sale or return. He said it was worth more than I thought, so I left it with him. 4 months later it hadn't sold, and I needed a sale, so he suggested a figure fully £10,000 less to buy it there and then. I accepted and then saw he'd sold it a week later, for £10k more. Grrr. 

[Momac]

58 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

6 MCA Surveyors’ powers
6.1 MCA Surveyors have the power to inspect any inland waterway non-passenger vessel
at any reasonable time, and to prevent it from operating if they have reason to believe that its
condition, or manner of operation, present a serious risk to the safety of those onboard, other
waterway users or the environment.

Cant say I have heard of any boats being inspected.

In any case the MCA has to have reason to believe a serious risk exists. Its not an authorisation to carry out random checks. 

[IanD]

23 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

This is a 'thing', with any brokerage.

You need to have a very trustworthy dealer. I sold my motorhome through a broker arrangement, sale or return. He said it was worth more than I thought, so I left it with him. 4 months later it hadn't sold, and I needed a sale, so he suggested a figure fully £10,000 less to buy it there and then. I accepted and then saw he'd sold it a week later, for £10k more. Grrr. 

That's perilously close to fraud, isn't it? :-(

[magnetman]

Is it ? 

 

It seems to be normal for some places. 

 

I guess there are professional guidelines and ethics but some people don't care about either. 

 

 

 

 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's perilously close to fraud, isn't it? :-(

 

In what way? 

 

I routinely sell stuff for more than I paid for it, as do all motor traders and pretty much every business trading in a free-market economy.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Momac said:

Cant say I have heard of any boats being inspected.

In any case the MCA has to have reason to believe a serious risk exists. Its not an authorisation to carry out random checks. 

 

Do you know of many MCA registered boats ?

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

In what way? 

 

I routinely sell stuff for more than I paid for it, as do all motor traders and pretty much every business trading in a free-market economy.

 

 

Yes but you are not a broker. 

 

I think brokers may have different rules. 

 

 

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

In what way? 

 

I routinely sell stuff for more than I paid for it, as do all motor traders and pretty much every business trading in a free-market economy.

 

 

Yes but you're not a broker who claims he couldn't sell a boat for 4 months at the offered price, then buys it from the seller for £10k less, then miraculously sells it for the original price a week later.

 

That's the possible fraud, not buying something and selling it for more.

Edited January 30, 2025 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, magnetman said:

Yes but you are not a broker. 

 

I think brokers may have different rules. 

 

 

 

But if he is selling a boat (motorhome) he owns, he is not a Broker (for that sale) he is making a sale as 'part of a business'.

[Momac]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Do you know of many MCA registered boats ?

Yes. A lot of boats are on the MCA  registers . But its not mandatory unless taking the boat abroad.

I doubt many narrowboats are registered .

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Momac said:

Yes. A lot of boats are on the MCA  registers . But its not mandatory unless taking the boat abroad.

I doubt many narrowboats are registered .

 

 

I think you may be confusing the 'Small Ships Register' which is managed by the MCA, rather than the safety 'equivalent' to the BSS for larger vessels.

 

The gravel barges on the Trent for example will need to meet MCA requirements.

 

 

 

The clue is in the title of the document I posted :

 

 

[Momac]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think you may be confusing the 'Small Ships Register' which is managed by the MCA, rather than the safety 'equivalent' to the BSS for larger vessels.

 

The gravel barges on the Trent for example will need to meet MCA requirements.

 

 

 

The clue is in the title of the document I posted :

 

 

I see

No relevance at all to pleasure craft.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Momac said:

I see

No relevance at all to pleasure craft.

 

You mean - "yes I was mistaken"

 

It applies to all vessels that fall within its scope, which includes, non-passenger carrying vessels on the UK's Inland Waterways.

 

My point was really more that there is already an Inland Waterways body that COULD, if the will was there, be utilsed to specify and manage the question of Lithium batteries.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You mean - "yes I was mistaken"

 

It applies to all vessels that fall within its scope, which includes, non-passenger carrying vessels on the UK's Inland Waterways.

 

My point was really more that there is already an Inland Waterways body that COULD, if the will was there, be utilsed to specify and manage the question of Lithium batteries.

 

But why is it needed? What's wrong with the organisations who already check that petrol/gas/lead-acid are safely installed on canal boats -- especially since if anything LFP are safer than any of these?

[Mike Todd]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

But what “suitable qualification” are you talking about? As far as I know such qualification doesn’t exist and correspondingly there is no requirement for one, unlike for gas.

Whilst there may not be a qualification with 'lithium' in the title (nor, I suspect is there one with Lead Acid) there can still be an expectation that the person signing off has been trained in relevant technologies and can demonstrate that they have done reasonable updating. After all,  most professionals in whatever sphere, face new technologies etc and can still consider themselves competent. Any worthwhile professional training will seek to instill am inquisitive attitude and develop skills to support that.

6 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Yes but you're not a broker who claims he couldn't sell a boat for 4 months at the offered price, then buys it from the seller for £10k less, then miraculously sells it for the original price a week later.

 

That's the possible fraud, not buying something and selling it for more.

Doesn't seem that he made much extra as a result, depending on the total sale value as he will have lost the commission you would have paid. 

 

It might become fraudulent if he had reached an agreement (nod or wink) with the eventual buyer to work this deal.

[Tony1]

7 hours ago, Tigerr said:

This is a 'thing', with any brokerage.

You need to have a very trustworthy dealer. I sold my motorhome through a broker arrangement, sale or return. He said it was worth more than I thought, so I left it with him. 4 months later it hadn't sold, and I needed a sale, so he suggested a figure fully £10,000 less to buy it there and then. I accepted and then saw he'd sold it a week later, for £10k more. Grrr. 

 

Well I had little trust in vehicle dealers already, but I have even less now. 

My basic assumption is that they wouldn't want to have a space on their showroom or forecourt being taken up by a MH that is unlikely to sell?

But I guess if they sniff a potential 10k profit, they'll let the MH sit there for 4 months and then make their pitch to the seller. 

Given that it sold within a week of him taking ownership, I think its more than likely there were a few buyer queries over the four months, and that he rebuffed them, saying it had already been sold. How else can you explain zero offers in 4 months, followed by an immediate sale within 7 days, after the price goes up by £10k?

The fact that he advised you to ask for a higher price initially is (I think) quite revealing of his intentions. It may be that is his routine business model. He rebuffs any buyers for a few months, so that the seller gets more keen for a sale and more open to a reduction, and then he makes his offer.  

Whether it is actual fraud might depend on whether you could find someone who had made an offer on it during the 4 months, and been told it was already sold, or not available for some other reason.

Perhaps he invented some sort of imaginary surcharge on top of the screen price, to deter buyers. Perhaps he told them there was a major engine issue or damp issue that would need sorting out? Perhaps he didnt even put a price sticker on it? 

Whatever the truth of it, it looks highly suspicious to me. 

 

Edited January 30, 2025 by Tony1

[TheBiscuits]

7 hours ago, Tigerr said:

4 months later it hadn't sold, and I needed a sale, so he suggested a figure fully £10,000 less to buy it there and then. I accepted and then saw he'd sold it a week later, for £10k more. Grrr. 

 

Which 4 months?  That would seem about right for November - February with a sale in March ...

[PeterF]

One thing I was reading the other day is that there really are only 2 approved bodies (approved by Government) that do RCR and PCA. HPI verification Services and IMCS (International Marine Certification Society).

 

Government listed RCR

 

I am self fitting lithium so wanted to look into this. The powers that be state lithium is a mod needing a PCA. The one thing that is concerning reading the regs is that a complete PCA is then required rather than just a check of the mod. Also, how does this affect the likes of Four Counties Marine installing lithiums, is his work needing a PCA. It will not stop me going ahead, I got the ISOs for small craft lithiums and wiring so will do a compliant install.

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, PeterF said:

One thing I was reading the other day is that there really are only 2 approved bodies (approved by Government) that do RCR and PCA. HPI verification Services and IMCS (International Marine Certification Society).

 

Government listed RCR

 

I am self fitting lithium so wanted to look into this. The powers that be state lithium is a mod needing a PCA. The one thing that is concerning reading the regs is that a complete PCA is then required rather than just a check of the mod. Also, how does this affect the likes of Four Counties Marine installing lithiums, is his work needing a PCA. It will not stop me going ahead, I got the ISOs for small craft lithiums and wiring so will do a compliant install.

 

My understanding is that if the boat is already compliant then only the part that is being changed needs a full examination and certifying - however the 'whole' boat now needs issuing with new documentation and certifying as compliant as the company doing the PCA now take on responsibility of the 'builder', so, the cost will be more than "just looking at the batteries", but not as much as doing a full PCA on a self-built non-compliant boat

 

If the boat is being 'newly built' by a commercial company then the installation of lithiums will come under their 'certificate of compliance' as normal, so the company nominated person (or their RCD approved surveyor) are signing to say it is compliant.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2025 by Alan de Enfield

[Phoenix_V]

On 03/02/2025 at 18:58, PeterF said:

One thing I was reading the other day is that there really are only 2 approved bodies (approved by Government) that do RCR and PCA. HPI verification Services and IMCS (International Marine Certification Society).

 

Government listed RCR

 

I am self fitting lithium so wanted to look into this. The powers that be state lithium is a mod needing a PCA. The one thing that is concerning reading the regs is that a complete PCA is then required rather than just a check of the mod. Also, how does this affect the likes of Four Counties Marine installing lithiums, is his work needing a PCA. It will not stop me going ahead, I got the ISOs for small craft lithiums and wiring so will do a compliant install.

jobs for the boys

I thought it was debatable whether fitting a new battery was a major modification requiring pca - where did that particular bit of nastiness come from please?

i am thinking of going lithium (removable in the event of sale!

Which is the current ISO for wiring and lithium please

Edited February 4, 2025 by Phoenix_V

[PeterF]

@Phoenix_V

 

ISO 13297 Small craft — Electrical systems — Alternating and direct current installations

 

ISO/TS 23625 Small craft — Lithium-ion batteries
NOTE: Expected to be replaced by ISO/FDIS 23625 within the coming months.

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by PeterF