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Tigerr

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Tigerr last won the day on July 3

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  1. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I think your analogy of old adventurers is not a bad one. Both Drake and Columbus made their fortunes - with was always their intent, it was always about money. However the poor nameless desperate men that crewed their adventures died like flies. As for the hundreds of unknown others who sailed off into oblivion to die, be enslaved, etc - history doesn't even record their miserable passing and they left no trace. Of course it was always the owners of the ships who made most of the money, and history is littered with ships foundering on the high seas for the insurance money too. I don't mind for a moment if you want to indulge your own heroic fantasy but the problem is that brexit is putting everyone into the same boat - in this case one that is understood to be unseaworthy by all those who make boats etc, and everyone can see the storm clouds directly ahead. There is a real problem when people start thinking in metaphors and substitute folklore 'history' stories identity instead of addressing the actual facts of the current situation.
  2. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    The spectacle of the UK ambassador being effectively dismissed by Trump, for simply stating truths about him and his cronies, and Johnson's craven hanging out to dry, following a brexiter journalist scoop makes 'take back control' a mockery. If we want to see sovereignty loss in action - that's what it looks like. A complete public demonstration of loss of authority and kow-towing to a hostile foreign power, bragging about its interference in sovereign politics. A clearer indication of just how meaningless the 'social relationship' has become is hard to imagine, although no doubt we will see one shortly. The leak to oaksott, is a criminal betrayal of critically important diplomatic bag confidence by someone who should be sent to prison. (Of course I am saying that because there seems strong circumstantial evidence our future PM might have had his mucky dibs in it). Johnson's abject failure to back the ambassador doing his job, shows him for a trump gimp - and the UK now effectively takes orders from the tinpot white house directly. Look forward to a trump poodle appointment - he's already suggested farage.
  3. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I think there may be a point lurking there underneath the usual smelly dribble - this thread has become like the last drunks standing at a rough wedding, throwing wild punches in the air, and it is time to leave the room to the ones punching the air the hardest.
  4. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Interesting - I thought she sounded deranged and hallucinating. However, given the ludicrous rhetoric of brexit posters on this thread I can understand she is expressing pretty much what they want to hear too.
  5. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Classic brexit response - brexit as 'the will of the people'. Ignoring the fact that it was a close result. A result now likely overturned simply by geriatric die-off, were the referendum today. Not that this would change anything in the nature of the culture war now in progress. To be honest I don't really give a toss how many people voted for brexit, nor do I think brexit itself is that meaningful - it's just the battlefield, not the war itself. Being outnumbered doesn't make a difference to the legitimacy of the fight. I am happy to be judged by the company I keep and those I stand alongside, whatever hat you want to imagine us wearing. In the same way brexiteers are judged by those they stand alongside. You have chosen to stand alongside some pretty unsavoury characters. In the end that's what this is about.
  6. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Well, that really adds some quality thinking. I think you answer your own question though - you don't really have anything else to say do you.
  7. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    The political monster is demagogues, political charlatans who sell nationalist jingoistic delusions. The populists you try and recast as 'popular'. One such delusion is that the british people, by dint simply of being british, have some exceptional quality. It's a delusion but a very popular one - it underlies some of what you post. It's a recurrent idea in the national story, so much so people believe it without question, and confuse that belief with patriotism. I see elements of that in your post above. People want to believe these simple emotional stories, and vote for the slimy characters who feed their need for self-validation in a challenging world. The stories always identify the source of 'the problem' as an external group - and blame is at the heart of the belief structure. You blame the EU, for some sort of idea the the formerly dynamic Brits have been made bloated and lazy - it's just myth and story - nationalist fantasising. Brexiters talk of betrayal, of the need for everyone to 'get behind' their 'win'. Johnson talks of having a 'war cabinet' to manage brexit. He's playing churchill music - he hopes to star in his own dunkirk, with the EU in the part of the third reich - it's bullshit. Objective truth is twisted, discredited, until only the purveyors of the fantasy are heard as 'truth' - 'alternative facts' drive out inconvenient facts that contradict the story. When reality fails to deliver the promises, as it must, the blame doubles down - that's the essence of this monster, and has been throughout human history. Its consequences are inherently repressive, bitterly divisive, and dangerous. For me, brexit itself is merely a pretext for those who would exploit this type of politics, a ready made set of external forces and people to blame in setting out their snake-oil stall. And they are selling very very well, because a lot of people want snake oil right now. It isn't leading anywhere good, there never were any bright sunlit uplands and blame, division and hate are the currencies in play. Dressed up with a national flag.
  8. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Actually it isn't similar at all - what you are doing is called 'whataboutery'. The point is Tice made a specifically worded post saying he was 'planning' to donate his salary to charity. It was reposted by one of our members here with warm approval for his action - or rather his 'plan'. I think we can all agree he should be congratulated when he follows through on his plan.
  9. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I wonder if Richard Tice has found time to sort out the charity he 'plans' to donate his salary to yet? Really looking forward to congratulating him on that. When he manages to move from 'planning' to 'doing' that is.
  10. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I think the different country that you describe here - is called 'the past'. Possibly the 'pre-industrial past'. To lay the blame for the failure of community and the fragmentation of family on socialism is bizarrely perverse. If you take an example of for instance the middle east - we see climate driven collapse of the pre-industrial agricultural subsistence culture, and mass migration to cities in search of work. A similar phenomenon can be seen across places like Indonesia - one of your cited examples. Once in the cities, the complete lack of what you woudl label 'socialist' infrastructure condemns people to lives of grinding awful poverty, including such caring activities as trafficking women, men accepting near slavery as labourers, ghastly sweatshops etc. In fact exactly the conditions you would find in Victorian London's east end. Disease and deprivation are widespread. The idyll you describe is a pangloss version of reality without 'socialist' caring infrastructure.
  11. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Well, if you remove the countries that you mention, and those with what you might call 'socialist' welfare provision - I think you might indeed conclude that the alternatives are 'wrong'. I have lived for long periods in Latin America, among other places. I wouldn't wish life as a poor person in many of these places on a dog. Plain wrong - I would say yes. Inhuman, institutionally violent, repressive, rapacious wealth inequality, endemic total corruption at every level - plain wrong. People tend to assume that the way of life in the UK is some sort of birthright, and infrastructure permanent, and sometimes we hear people say 'we've nothing to lose'. Take a look, a smell, at life in a Brazilian favela or a Mumbai slum, or someone ill without health insurance in the USA, and you'll realise just how much we have to lose.
  12. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    It is some seriously muddled thinking that slaps the label 'commie' onto criticism of the dismantling of welfare state provision in this country by successive right wing governments. These projects were all established by elected British government, largely in the post war building period, in the national interest of the people. Subsequently they have been 'monetised' by UK governments, largely on thatchers agenda, to the benefit of shareholders rather than the people. In some cases the privatisation has been a very bad deal indeed for the people, but truly awesome for shareholders financial returns. They were never 'commie' projects - but their conversion to moneyspinners for the few has been a great tory success story.
  13. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I certainly agree it will, already has ushered in a new type of politics. Represented by farage and johnson, and role modelled by trump. It is a much worse form of politics than we have had, and stinks of populist diversionary manipulation. Which you know -that's why you seek (cynically in my opinion) to confuse popular with populist. The diversionary tactic is ethnic nationalism, to which you subscribe, judging by your posts (but always with a hair's width of deniability). As for democracy Brexit reveals that a sizeable proportion of the population would prefer a people's dictatorship if it promised a 'return' to an imaginary, fictional condition of 'taking back control of our country'. That isn't greater scrutiny of politicians it is a corrupted and undermined democracy. Corrupted by charlatans and internet fuelled irrationality, fear, and hate. It isn't brexit that is the real danger, it is the political monsters it has unleashed that are the real problem. Monsters that I consider the EU to be a valuable bulwark against. I agree there is a possibility that out of the mess, thereby be constitutional reform - but I fear the mess may cost the people much that they currently take for granted as all is reliant on 'the economy' and that is going to burn.
  14. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    The turning of backs during the national anthem by a political bloc is a very meaningful gesture in Europe, having been popularised in 1926 by the national socialists at the Reichstag, en route to Adolf's appointment as chancellor and the sunlit uplands of the third reich. I imagine that resonates very well in advance of 'negotiations'.
  15. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Hunt, who's hoping to face businesses going bust due to their reliance on EU markets 'with a heavy heart', but will be offering those ruined the comfort that their sacrifice is 'worth it', now talks of a £6bn subsidy to the post brexit fishing industry to compensate them for the losses they will face due to their reliance on EU markets. I don't think Farage was waving mackerel about on the Thames for brexit fishing losses was he? I thought brexit was meant to restore the fortunes of the fleet. How come the fishing industry gets a bung but others sacrifice is just 'worth it'? Hunt may be just making it up as he goes, but he's doing a great job of revealing the barking insanity and contradictory mentality at the heart of the dream. His latest is threatening to cancel civil service holidays unless they present workable plans. I can't wait for the 'downfall' video of this one. The disconnect between objective reality and the fantasy is getting wider by the day. With chaps like this at the helm what can possibly go wrong?
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