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Tigerr

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Tigerr last won the day on March 24

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  1. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I can't see why voting should be any different from criminal responsibility, in terms of age. There are obvious parallels of course.
  2. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    If only there were some means of actually directly asking the electorate, today, if they were in favour of brexit or not, or even if they want the deal that has been negotiated. I am sure there is some way of doing this. But this question seems to be one lots of people are very keen to avoid asking.
  3. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    In truth - the chances of meeting in real life are indeed nil. To a large extent the is why people post stuff on the internet they would not dare say in open forum, in case someone called them a twat. The internet has enabled and empowered people to express views and ideas that they would probably not admit to face to face. For some that becomes the whole point of posting - releasing their inner poison - and probably if you met them they would be quite charming. It is mental health week so bear that in mind.
  4. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Mind you, I think the aim of this thread has more to do with fighting down the pub after time than any form of enlightenment so lets get back to bashing each other in the car park!
  5. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I agree - the plight of the working poor in the UK is an unfolding disaster. I think it is right to be angry. It is also right to analyse why we are in this situation, in depth, before allocating blame or offering simple solutions. As a society we face massive challenges and I think there are no easy/good outcome answers for some. If we wanted to reach sunlit uplands - we probably wouldn't want to start where we are now. Too much Brexit ideology is firmly based on blaming the EU for things that local governments/capitalist wealth has done, and suggesting that leaving will usher in ethnic national self-determination. It's going on across Europe, and it is led by ethnic nationalist hate mongers. In some countries these people are openly fascist and proud of it - red and black swastika-like logos included. I include Farage in that - but he plays his dog whistle very carefully because fascism has a bad reputation in the UK. That's why the Brexit arrow logo is nice blue not red and black! It's a nasty complicated mess. But one thing stands out - inequality in the UK has leapt (see Gini coefficient under Thatcher). Far higher than in the rest of the EU. And welfare state infrastructure has been under sustained attack, with those most reliant on it demonised. Meanwhile a heist of epic proportions is ongoing in the UK, apparently the 5th largest economy in the world (by all means correct me). Who is running the heist? Where is the wealth going? It's free movement of capital and wealth, that has devastated manufacturing and left a Mcjob zero hours employment economy. The EU accounts for less immigration than the rest of world, and the UK government have controlled neither, if that were the issue. But it isn't as if there is a rush of UK workers to fulfil jobs in agriculture/NHS/age care/minicab driving right now. The key question ought to be 'how will leaving the EU improve things' - I don't think it will but happy to hear otherwise. Instead, what is happening now is a fetishising of the 52/48 vote as a totem of 'democracy itself' by political chancers. Farage's banging on about democracy is starkly in contrast to any actual ideas about tackling real, difficult and potentially 'no good outcome' issues that we face.
  6. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    There is whole thing going on in politics at the moment in which the rise of neo-fascists and ethic nationalists, and the emergence of political opportunists offering simple solutions, is 'explained' - I prefer to say excused - as if it is a natural and therefore excusable consequence of such ideology being 'driven underground'. The aim is to hold the opponents of such views responsible for their emergence as if the holders of obnoxious ideas are merely expressing their natural (ie acceptable) opinions. Usually, those making the apologia actually hold the views but seek to see them expressed as 'natural in anyone' rather than 'what I believe'. Ethnic racism and nationalism are 'natural' in the one way as slavery is 'natural', wife beating and oppressing women is 'natural', judicial killing is 'natural', Killing religious heretics is 'natural' - the list of leftover 'natural' human primitivist barbarisms is a long one. They all have their roots in a human past of 60,000 years in which the folk over the hill were either enemies, food, slaves, a threat, etc. There have always been this who would seek power by inflaming primitive fear, offer simple solutions that demand only uncritical loyalty, and identify the culprits who have betrayed the people - almost always false scapegoats. That's what is happening right now. The boil to lance is the lies of these charlatans in my opinion. That's why it matters to keep on pointing them out - because the way they succeed is when the credulous are prepared to offer uncritical loyalty in exchange for simple 'answers'.
  7. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    This illustrates where we are heading. Trump model of politics in which the villainy and lies of politicians are of no account if they deliver 'avenging', and truth becomes whatever suits at the time, or whatever the 'avenging' mob want to hear. The idea that Farage will 'be scrapped' is another old dictators trope - that of the cleansing (drain the swamp?) figure who will step aside once 'the job' is done. Through history - they never do, because the revenge is never complete and new threats and scapegoats are always found, when fantasy policies fail. Once politics has become about 'avenging' I think we have moved into dangerous territory. Upthread there is glee about the political challenges facing the EU, as if leaving somehow insulates the UK from teh consequences - it won't. And the question begged, since it matters a lot to us here too, is what the gleeful expect/hope to see in its place. The most obvious pointer is the rise of far right openly fascist politicians in Europe, with contradictory fantasy policies and openly race/ethnic cleansing based agendas. Appeasing the fascists is unlikely to work - as the Tories and Labour are finding out.
  8. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    There has been a bit of an outpouring of victorious fist pumping from the 'winning' brexit supporters on this thread, including teh usual 'perfick' snowball loser stuff etc. Upthread it is summarised - the only policy is 'out' rather than any actual 'post-out' ideas which I suppose simplifies things for those looking for simple answers. Simple answers is certainly a winning idea at the moment, because engaging with complex reality is confusing on every front. Much of the debate has certainly sunk to the level of football supporters directing their efforts at the opposing fans rather than the game itself. Perhaps 'winning' is what matters but in the event, some questions should be answered by 'the winners' - in this case personalised to Farage as the 'leader', in no particular order. The key being you really do need to know what your intention is on these issues because they define our shared future: How will you deal with the Northern Ireland border? How will you manage a trade deal with the USA when they say none is possible if there is a hard border in Northern Ireland? What specific trade deal do you want with Europe, if any? In the 2016 campaign the leave promise was a variety of easily negotiated deals which have proven so far impossible to negotiate, or agree, even among brexit agencies such as the ERG. Why has 'no deal' become the preferred option, and what proportion of brexit voters voted for 'no deal'. You have said trading with the EU, and the rest of the world on 'WTO terms' would be quite acceptable - please spell out what that actually means for import and export tariff rates and likely impacts on key UK sectors. Restriction of free movement has been a lynchpin of Brexit ideology - how will you respond to Chinese and Indian (very significant global traders) trade deal negotiations in which they have already said categorically that open migration for their citizens, and capital investments in UK business and assets ownership will be fundamental prerequisites? What is your position regards USA healthcare companies being offered preferential (profit-assured) access to NHS 'markets' as precondition to any USA deal, as stated by USA govt? A lynchpin of brexit ideology is legislative freedom from 'EU diktat'. What EU laws are you going to repeal if we Brexit as you wish, and why? Would that have also been possible under May’s deal? Why do you want to use WTO rules when no other country in the world does, given they are the least preferred trading option safety net - described by senior WTO figures as 'economic armageddon' for the UK? How long do you expect it to take to build new trade deals to replace those it has taken 40 years of EU negotiators to establish for the UK, invalidated in favour of worse WTO terms on day one of the no deal brexit. While the UK is operating on WTO basis? You accept that agriculture and manufacturing will have to 'adapt' and 'modernise' in the face of WTO driven market entry from cheaper/unregulated producers. What do you actually mean by these words, and how many farm/business failures, and job losses do you regard as acceptable? Every credible organisation offering a Brexit forecast says it will cost UK jobs. What is the upside that will replace these jobs and lighten the tax/welfare burden Uk citizens will bear? Do you expect the unemployed/benefits recipients to be better or worse off post brexit? Of course a 'manifesto' would address such issues but for obvious reasons no manifesto is intended since the answers would instantly be unpalatable vote-losers. In my opinion.
  9. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I think that walking away from the challenges facing Europe is no way to respond to them. I do not know where we will be in Europe and the EU in 5 years - there are huge factors with unknown consequences at play. In the past challenges of such scale have invariably concluded in warfare. So my starting point for what I would want to see is peace, and talking, and seeking of common enterprise, to address the following issues, among others: Climate chaos, and the international policies that must be required to mitigate its impacts. Including mass migration. Exploding wealth inequality, personal and corporate institutional tax evasion, and the destruction of welfare provision for the poor in pursuit of profits for wealth. Un regulated freedom of movement of rentier capital against the interests of labour, consumers and taxpayers The impacts of AI on future employment Chinese, and USA financial dominance and its consequences Its not a full list but enough to be getting on with. These are rightly frightening challenges, suggesting that past certainties no longer apply. I don't think there are 'good' outcomes at all for many of these challenges at the moment - merely degrees of 'least bad'. Of course that isn't what people want to hear, what they want is to be reassured that all will be well in the hands of strong leaders, when reality gets too difficult. It is at these times that the past can take on a more rosy view. In every case nation state responses must be aligned, or vested interests will seek to exploit nationalist emotions to gain political and financial advantage. The solutions, all international, are complicated. More complex than I think myself equipped to specify. But one thing I know is that a retreat into ethnic, nationalist jingoistic slogan based politics isn't a good answer. Neither is leaving our ability to influence things at a continental level in pursuit of cartoon ideas of national identity. Right now though there are political/economic interests doing that across Europe promising simple answers to complex problems and fears - in each case playing on ethnic nationalist sentiment. And in the UK. One thing not to do is to accept this as if it were inevitable, or that because a lot of people are seduced by these manipulative simple messages, the messages are true, or more valid.
  10. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    You can scrape the barrel as low as you like to defend Farage - on the basis of where you think exaggeration becomes lies - obviously that's your choice, and your ethical line - but given has been so keen to deny he even said it, I know what I think. It is also absolutely key to understand that when Farage says more money for health services, he has also made clear by that he means money for private health services, the insurance industry and its shareholders, not the national health service as we know it. He has said he wants that insurance-based on the american model. That's how he found himself in a gold plated lift with Trump.
  11. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Jennifer - it is wearisome, but your post illustrates my point. First you claim with certainty that 'it never happened' - ie Farage never said it (it was someone else). Then Alan takes this 'fact' and spins off into a personal animus about remainers overall being uninterested in facts. So let's start with the fact - Farage said it. Several times, on TV in front of millions of viewers. Then denied he ever said it, despite the glaring proof. And still does. He is still lying. It is a measure of the man's approach to truth - it is whatever he finds expedient to say at the time, and his supporters want to hear. These are facts - possibly the sort of facts that brexiteers would rather not recognise. Another fact, concerning the NHS is farage's public advocacy of an american style insurance model to replace the NHS. No surprise given his background making money from financial speculation, but worth pointing out that when he proposes to spend money on healthcare in the UK he means make profits for private healthcare companies not more nurses. The facts matter. Sliding away to divert into 'what's wrong with saying', misses the point. The point is about failure to understand the difference between truth and lies. Or lack of interest in facts as Alan prefers to express it - when he used your misinformed falsehood as the 'fact' to springboard his own fantastical projection of false thinking. And Mark 99 chimes in - all banging the same empty drum. The merits of the original £350m lie have been discussed at length - because it was and is a lie. A simple, straightforward lie, that just happens to be what people who want to be lied to want to hear. Upthread there are endless discussions in which Brexiters take pride in the lies the leave campaign told being better lies than remains lies, as if that were some sort of validation. Of course the £350m bus lie isn't the only one, how about the following - you will know who said what: We will be doing great trade deals in Berlin the day after we declare for article 50. They need us more than we need them. The german car industry will force Merkel to offer a great deal. We can train our own nurses, we don't need foreigners to do this work. We can pick our own fruit, farmers can adapt - use machines. You don't need to be clever to do this job. I never knew just how important frictionless infrastructure at Dover is to the UK economy. I will have agreed 100 trade deals by April 2019. The deal with Faroes is a good deal for us and them. We can rebuild our fishing industry (the one 'our' fleet sold to foreign companies to cash in on quotas). One could simply go on and on with noting the lies, but as with Trump it probably has little effect on a mindset in which the best lies are simply the best. And that is before we get to talk about the reduction of brexit logic to simply 'delivering the will of the people' regardless of what that will was, when it was expressed, rather than the perverse double-down around intangible semantics that seems to have occurred. One can understand why the double down has happened because admitting that one was lied to and fell for it is almost impossible to accept. 'No deal' was never part of Leave campaigning - not one leader advocated what the ex-head of the WTO has described as 'economic armageddon' for the UK. When did 'no deal' become the preferred option? It certainly wasn't in 2016.
  12. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    In less than 15 seconds on Google one finds broadcast video of the frog faced charlatan claiming the £350m will be available to be spent in the UK while he was campaigning. Repeatedly. Looks like a 'fact' to me, but then I am just using eyes and ears, maybe Alan has a supply of 'alternative facts' - like Jennifer who confidently says it never happened. Maybe it was a chap wearing a baggy faced Farage mask - repeatedly. Or maybe the fact that Farage denied his own words means more to a brexit supporter - truth is whatever he chooses it to be at the time, whatever suits the prejudice. 'Truthiness' as it is called in the USA by those who sell lies to those who want to be lied to. Clearly though 15 seconds of fact-finding is 15 seconds more than these folk could manage.
  13. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    The fairground is exactly the place for the hawkers of snake oil and cure-alls. Charlatans and chancers portending to be patriots, but they couldn't be onstage without a willing audience of slack-jawed gammon-faced folk hanging on their every word. Creepy people on both sides of the microphone. The constant harping on about patriotism is exactly what to expect from these far right chancers. The worst that England has to offer on a stick, in my opinion. Of course it is good to see someone trying to resurrect their career after celebrity dancing telly - but again I guess that just demonstrates the calibre here.
  14. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    I suppose it won't mean anything to you that the referendum was advisory, in actual legal terms. I can appreciate it must be very satisfying to label elected MPs as 'no more than despotic and renegade' - certainly helps fuel one's sense of righteous indignant anger - but even you probably know it isn't the truth or a realistic assessment. It's the sort of nonsense that Mark Francois spouts.
  15. Tigerr

    Brexit 2019

    Keep digging mate. You will get to the point under the bridge that you seek soon enough.
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