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Posted (edited)

 

The chap moored next to me had a valuer visit from Whilton today to make an offer on his boat, and I got talking to the buyer afterwards about how lithium batteries might affect a used boat's price. It wasnt an entirely theoretical discussion, as I have considered whether to sell next year, and go travelling Europe in a motorhome for a few years.

 I said I was asking because I had lithium batteries, and the chap asked if I'd had an assessment of my electrics done after the lithium install.

I think he called it a HPA, or HCA, but I cant quite recall. @Alan de Enfield will know the acronym - in fact Alan has quoted it several times as I recall. 

The valuer said that if I didnt have this assessment done, Whilton wouldn't be able to accept the boat for brokerage.

He was also very insistent on my having a certificate of conformity for the boat itself (I think thats the RCD paperwork?). 

I recall that lots of folks have spoken on this forum about this sort of paperwork, and some have said they didnt think these the regulations were a major concern. And when you have no plans to sell, I can understand they seem a rather distant issue. 

But I have to say that after speaking to this guy, and hearing his views on the assessment for electrical changes in particular, my opinion has changed. 

A private sale need not involve any of this paperwork of course, but when a boat's value is say 50-100k or more, my exchange with the Whilton guy seems to indicate that sellers need to give at least some thought to addressing these issues.

My own solution, if I do sell, will be to replace the lithiums with lead acids at a cost of perhaps £400.

But even that may not be enough, and if I have to return the boat to its original electrical state I may have to remove the victron B2Bs, and buy a charger that will charge lead acids directly from the alternators. 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

The other option is don't sell your boat through Wilton. 

 

I'm kind of assuming that if Whilton are asking for any given paperwork as part of a sale, most of the other brokers will be too? 

You can still sell privately as I said above, but I suspect your market of buyers will be smaller.

In fact I bought my boat privately, but I was quite worried in case there was some kind of clever financial stitch up going on that I wasnt aware of. 

 

Edited by Tony1
Posted

I think Whilton tend to purchase and then they are the seller so that might be why they want the paperwork where as a broker that is only brokering a deal may not.

  • Greenie 1
Posted
3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

The other option is don't sell your boat through Wilton. 

 

Among other reasons. 

 

 

Rearrange the words barge do not pole with it touch. 

 

 

a

  • Greenie 1
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I think Whilton tend to purchase and then they are the seller so that might be why they want the paperwork where as a broker that is only brokering a deal may not.

 

No Rob, he was very clear. He said Whilton would not put my boat on brokerage OR buy it, if I didnt have an assessment done for my lithium install.

He wasnt quite so categorical about the RCD paperwork, but my impression was that things would be difficult without it. 

 

Edited by Tony1
Posted
Just now, Tony1 said:

 

No Rob, he said Whilton would NOT put my boat on brokerage if I didnt have an assessment done for my lithium install.

He wasnt quite so categorical about the RCD paperwork, but my impression was that things would be difficult without it. 

 

If you put your Boat on brokerage at Whilton they will degrade it, buy it cheap and then put it back up for sale. 

 

Everybody knows this. 

 

 

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If you put your Boat on brokerage at Whilton they will degrade it, buy it cheap and then put it back up for sale. 

 

Everybody knows this. 

 

 

 

I've no idea about their business practices, although I do share some of your concerns there after seeing the offer they made to the guy next door.

But the real question is this- if they are now asking for this sort of paperwork, wont the other brokers also be asking for it? 

Hopefully my assumption is totally wrong - hopefully someone with a recent broker selling experience can comment on this?  

 

Edited by Tony1
Posted (edited)

I suspect the problem is that there is still no clear info about what might be in the pipeline for the BSS regarding Li installs. A broker wouldn’t want their reputation tarnished by selling a boat only to have the new owner complain that it fundamentally didn’t comply with the latest BSS requirements. And as we know, Whilton can’t afford any reduction in their reputation!

 

I don’t see it as a big deal because if necessary, I could remove the Li and fit dreadful archaic LA for not much money as you’ve suggested. It would be a crying shame but there you go, some people find virtue in stifling progress. Not that we are planning to sell our boat anytime soon.

Edited by nicknorman
Posted
31 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

A private sale need not involve any of this paperwork of course, but when a boat's value is say 50-100k or more, my exchange with the Whilton guy seems to indicate that sellers need to give at least some thought to addressing these issues.

That is exactly my position, and it needs thinking about before buying a boat, not afterwards.

Posted
7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 remove the Li and fit dreadful archaic LA for not much 

I keep dreadful archaic LA especially for the Boat Safety nan. 

 

It only takes a moment.

 

 

 

Posted
24 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If you put your Boat on brokerage at Whilton they will degrade it, buy it cheap and then put it back up for sale. 

 

Everybody knows this. 

 

 

Yep, I'm, sure you are right. This buyer was a smart cookie streets ahead of dear Tony1. 

 

What happens next is Tony1 asks the buyer how to get a PCA and the buyer sucks his teeth and stresses how difficult, expensive and laden with risk it would be. 

 

Then, as Tony1 is obviously such a nice bloke and a bit stuck in a bind, he suggests they might, just might, consider buying Tony's boat without the necessary paperwork. Possibly. The price would obviously have to be suitably adjusted downwards to account for the missing paperwork, mind. And Tony1 being so very grateful for being rescued, accepts....

 

 

 

  • Greenie 3
Posted
11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I suspect the problem is that there is still no clear info about what might be in the pipeline for the BSS regarding Li installs. A broker wouldn’t want their reputation tarnished by selling a boat only to have the new owner complain that it fundamentally didn’t comply with the latest BSS requirements. And as we know, Whilton can’t afford any reduction in their reputation!

 

I don’t see it as a big deal because if necessary, I could remove the Li and fit dreadful archaic LA for not much money as you’ve suggested. It would be a crying shame but there you go, some people find virtue in stifling progress. Not that we are planning to sell our boat anytime soon.

 

I find the whole attitude of BSS and others to lithiums to be incredibly frustrating. If you add lithium to a motorhome, for example, there is no specific insurance or regulatory involvement at all, despite so many of the systems being very similar in principle, and despite your vehicle hurtling around the motorways at 60mph or more. 

 

But what I will not dispute is that a lithium install is a significant change in the electrics.

And as Alan has said, the rule about getting big electrical changes assessed has been around for some time, so its not an anti-lithium thing (as I believe normally see from regulators). 

 

Fortunately, when it comes to selling, the solution can be fairly cheap and easy, but its a shame that new owners wont gain the fantastic benefits of a powerful electrical supply. 

 

Posted

Then Whilton flog it as expected, with no PCA. 

 

 

Tony on the other hand, should suddenly remember he didn't fit any lithiums at all, they were there in the boat from new! 

 

 

  • Horror 1
Posted

I blame it on the stress of having to listen to M1 noise all day. Very tiring.

 

 

  • Haha 1
Posted
13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

That is exactly my position, and it needs thinking about before buying a boat, not afterwards.

 

In terms of the RCD, I would like to know if this is just Whilton asking for it, or if it is just boats of say 50k or over that they worry about, or whether there is a wider trend among brokers. 

Certainly if I was spending more than 40k on a boat now, I would at least ask if there was any RCD paperwork, and then make a decision. 

 

 

Posted

Isn't it called the RCR these days? 

 

I know this draws in a dodgy breakdown recovery service and could lead to confusion but I do think the RCD (not an electrical fault cutoff device) has changed to the RCR (not an inland waterways 7th emergency service) 

Posted
16 minutes ago, junior said:

There is no way half the shit Whilton sell has got an RCD or whatever it's called.

 

I think you're probably right. It might be that my boat has a chance of selling for say 50k, and at that price maybe the buyers surveyor will pay a bit more attention, and ask for all the paperwork?

I honestly dont know, which is why I mentioned it in the first place.

But he did seem to think the certificate was going to be important. 

 

Posted

 

 

Anyway all these 50 grand Boats are going to be scrap or ten grand if you are lucky within a year or two due to incredibly Draconian changes to licensing statute so it does not matter. 

 

 

  • Greenie 1
Posted
11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

he suggests they might, just might, consider buying Tony's boat without the necessary paperwork. Possibly. The price would obviously have to be suitably adjusted downwards to account for the missing paperwork, mind. And Tony1 being so very grateful for being rescued, accepts....

 

 

I did suspect some such shenanigans might be afoot, and I half expected some sort of last minute 'rescue' offer - but he was categorical.

If there was no PCA for the lithiums, they couldn't put it on brokerage, and that was that. 

When I said that my setup allowed me to just drop in some lead acids to replace the lithiums, he looked relieved and suggested I should do exactly that. So it probably wasnt a negotiating tactic. 

 

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

Anyway all these 50 grand Boats are going to be scrap or ten grand if you are lucky within a year or two due to incredibly Draconian changes to licensing statute so it does not matter. 

 

 

 

Ssshhh, Mr M!  

Don't tell everyone. 

I wasnt planning to sell for another four or five years, but the recent commission has got me worried about boat prices in 2026 and beyond.

 

Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Isn't it called the RCR these days? 

 

Only since 2017

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/recreational-craft-regulations-2017/recreational-craft-regulations-2017-great-britain

 

 

Whether fitting lithium batteries is sufficient to require a PCA is  matter of opinion.

A major conversion certainly requires a PCA.  But fitting a new battery doesn't seem to me to fall into that category.

 

Edited by Momac
  • Greenie 1
Posted
10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

Anyway all these 50 grand Boats are going to be scrap or ten grand if you are lucky within a year or two due to incredibly Draconian changes to licensing statute so it does not matter. 

 

 

 

I'd have thought the cut-off point is, if it isn't imaginary, built before or after June 1998, not above or below some arbitrary value. 

 

 

 

Posted
1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

I'd have thought the cut-off point is, if it isn't imaginary, built before or after June 1998, not above or below some arbitrary value. 

Canal licence costs based on build year? 

 

That would be interesting. 

 

Shall we charge the older or the newer Boats more? 

 

There could be an arbitrary fee structure introduced to confuse them  while we fleece the blighters terribly. 

 

Also invest in Boat scrapping slipways. 

 

What about charging those ones who 'go on about homes' more than the ones who 'go home' to get the conflict levels up. 

 

If done right they'll be fighting each other ! 

Posted
3 minutes ago, Momac said:

Only since 2017

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/recreational-craft-regulations-2017/recreational-craft-regulations-2017-great-britain

 

 

Whether fitting lithium batteries is sufficient to require a PCA is  matter of opinion.

A major conversion certainly requires a PCA.  But fitting a new battery doesn't seem to me to fall into that category.

 

 

I think an argument could be made that new batteries doesnt warrant a PCA, but with lithiums its more than that surely? 

For many people it will involve a B2B charger and using a lead acid as a parallel 'source' battery. 

Does that warrant a PCA? Again, its opinion - and maybe Whilton are being over cautious?

Maybe they've been asked by some buyer's surveyors to provide PCAs for lithiums in recent times? (Especially if the boats have been more expensive ones).

Is it only Whilton asking about this, or is there a wider trend among brokers? 

 

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