A Bit of an Eye Opener

[Peugeot 106]

My history report merely said ‘ he is inert’. I had to look the meaning up but unfortunately my Ma didn’t

[Tony1]

7 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Like so many advances in technology, those who have not tried it, don't see the point. Those who have, do. It was the same .... when my brain was replaced by an AI.

 

I knew it. I bloody knew it.

 

[Momac]

On 28/01/2025 at 23:56, David Mack said:

Surely by now there are new boats being supplied with lithium batteries. Do they comply with the RCR?

 

Surely any new boat that is professionally built must comply with RCR.

My understanding is nothing in RCR prohibits anything . But compliance with relevant  standards has to be proven. 

A lithium battery may or may not be accepted by RCR depending on the type and specification  of lithium battery and its installation/connection to the electrical system in the boat.

 

I think the DIY installation of lithium batteries perhaps should always be inspected and signed off by a suitably qualified person (in the same way that eg fitting of a gas appliance should be). Whether this is easy/feasible in practice I don't know.  

 

[IanD]

34 minutes ago, Momac said:

 

Surely any new boat that is professionally built must comply with RCR.

My understanding is nothing in RCR prohibits anything . But compliance with relevant  standards has to be proven. 

A lithium battery may or may not be accepted by RCR depending on the type and specification  of lithium battery and its installation/connection to the electrical system in the boat.

 

I think the DIY installation of lithium batteries perhaps should always be inspected and signed off by a suitably qualified person (in the same way that eg fitting of a gas appliance should be). Whether this is easy/feasible in practice I don't know.  

 

All this is still missing the point that LFP batteries -- especially ones with inbuilt BMS -- are almost certainly safer than LA batteries, and these don't have to be specially inspected and signed off do they? 

 

Yes safety precautions are needed (which BSS deals with), but at least LFP don't vent gases that go bang or leak acid like LA do -- and they don't burn like NMC either...

Edited January 30, 2025 by IanD

[nicknorman]

37 minutes ago, Momac said:

 

I think the DIY installation of lithium batteries perhaps should always be inspected and signed off by a suitably qualified person (in the same way that eg fitting of a gas appliance should be). 

 

But what “suitable qualification” are you talking about? As far as I know such qualification doesn’t exist and correspondingly there is no requirement for one, unlike for gas.

[David Schweizer]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

All this is still missing the point that LFP batteries -- especially ones with inbuilt BMS -- are almost certainly safer than LA batteries, and these don't have to be specially inspected and signed off do they? 

 

Yes safety precautions are needed (which BSS deals with), but at least LFP don't vent gases that go bang or leak acid like LA do -- and they don't burn like NMC either...

 

In my many past years of boating I have heard various reports of LA batteries leaking acid or gas, and someimes exploding, but have never had any experience of this happening in my boat, or indeed on any boat owned by friends. All this leads me to ask whether this is good fortune or better quality equipment and installation.

[Alan de Enfield]

An interesting news titbit this morning :

 

 

Hollywood stars have been warned they face months of being unable to clear up their homes over fears of electric cars becoming toxic ticking timebombs.

Warnings have been issued to celebrities and the thousands of displaced locals who were forced to flee their homes in the Pacific Palisades and Malibu area due to the deadly California wildfires.

 

Officials have warned of the threat posed by the high volume of EV cars that may “spontaneously explode.”

 

Los Angeles Fire Chiefs explicitly stated that electric car batteries are “extremely toxic” following exposure to high heat.

 

 

Now, residents from one of the world’s most prosperous neighbourhoods have been warned not to return until federal agencies have cleared the issues, which will likely take months.

More than 6,800 structures went up, leaving experts from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) with the long task of probing every inch of that property.

Los Angeles City Fire PIO Adam VenGerpen specifically warned residents of “extremely toxic” lithium-ion batteries found in electric cars.

VenGerpen said: “We don’t know the long-term effects of all this exposure, and we haven’t seen it on this large scale and this many electric vehicles.” He cited lithium-ion batteries as “incredibly toxic. “Even if they look like they’re intact, like they weren’t damaged, they could have damage on the inside, VerGerpen added. “So they can continue to off-gas. The off-gassing from these lithium-ion batteries can be toxic to your health.”

 

Another concern is that the heat exposure means they “can spontaneously explode”.

He warned: “There’s a lot of hazards that people don’t typically think of, but these aren’t something that you can just eliminate.

“You have to have specialists coming out there, identify them and then properly remove them.”

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, David Schweizer said:

 

In my many past years of boating I have heard various reports of LA batteries leaking acid or gas, and someimes exploding, but have never had any experience of this happening in my boat, or indeed on any boat owned by friends. All this leads me to ask whether this is good fortune or better quality equipment and installation.

Or just an awareness of the issues? A boat came into our marina a couple of years ago and was moored opposite. It was an early electric hybrid boat with a lot of 2v lead acid cells and a fancy control and charging system. The chap had recently bought it. He plugged it into shore power and it was greedily hoovering up about 3kw. For several days😱

 

There was a hull outlet pointing at our boat, from which “steam” and gurgling sounds were emanating. This was the battery vent system. I pointed out the problem to the new owner, we checked and the batteries were too hot to touch. He didn’t really see the problem but I persuaded him to unplug it. A few days later it was plugged into shore power again and the same steam and gurgling. After a few people complained, he was asked to leave. Fortunately before it all exploded and/or sprayed boiling sulphuric acid at our boat!

[cheesegas]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

An interesting news titbit this morning :

 

 

Hollywood stars have been warned they face months of being unable to clear up their homes over fears of electric cars becoming toxic ticking timebombs.

Warnings have been issued to celebrities and the thousands of displaced locals who were forced to flee their homes in the Pacific Palisades and Malibu area due to the deadly California wildfires.

 

Officials have warned of the threat posed by the high volume of EV cars that may “spontaneously explode.”

 

Los Angeles Fire Chiefs explicitly stated that electric car batteries are “extremely toxic” following exposure to high heat.

 

 

Now, residents from one of the world’s most prosperous neighbourhoods have been warned not to return until federal agencies have cleared the issues, which will likely take months.

More than 6,800 structures went up, leaving experts from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) with the long task of probing every inch of that property.

Los Angeles City Fire PIO Adam VenGerpen specifically warned residents of “extremely toxic” lithium-ion batteries found in electric cars.

VenGerpen said: “We don’t know the long-term effects of all this exposure, and we haven’t seen it on this large scale and this many electric vehicles.” He cited lithium-ion batteries as “incredibly toxic. “Even if they look like they’re intact, like they weren’t damaged, they could have damage on the inside, VerGerpen added. “So they can continue to off-gas. The off-gassing from these lithium-ion batteries can be toxic to your health.”

 

Another concern is that the heat exposure means they “can spontaneously explode”.

He warned: “There’s a lot of hazards that people don’t typically think of, but these aren’t something that you can just eliminate.

“You have to have specialists coming out there, identify them and then properly remove them.”

Here's my usual spiel when this sort of thing is posted - EVs use NMC or or NCO li-ion batteries, very different to LFPs used in boats. It's not really relevant to this discussion. I can't be bothered to copy and paste my usual sources, there's plenty of info online.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

In my many past years of boating I have heard various reports of LA batteries leaking acid or gas, and someimes exploding, but have never had any experience of this happening in my boat, or indeed on any boat owned by friends. All this leads me to ask whether this is good fortune or better quality equipment and installation.

 or proper monitoring, handling and maintenance/replacement. I think good fortune has very little to do with it. They leak acid when the case gets cracked by mechanical damage or gorillas on terminal bolts. They explode when they start shorting internally and the owner ignores the longer recharge times, faster discharge times, and horrible smell.

 

The only way good fortune may come into it is if your charger went faulty, or you managed to get a badly assembled battery.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, cheesegas said:

Here's my usual spiel when this sort of thing is posted - EVs use NMC or or NCO li-ion batteries, very different to LFPs used in boats. It's not really relevant to this discussion. I can't be bothered to copy and paste my usual sources, there's plenty of info online.

 

You know that, and probably many folk doing DIY lithium installs know it, but, currently there is no requirement / specification/ check / monitoring to exactly what chemistry are fitted to a boat.

Would a BSS examiner look at a 'lump' on a boat and say 'thats fine it's LiPo4" ?

 

Would a DIYer (the man on the Clapham Omnibus) look at an ex-vehicle battery for £1000, or choose something that looks similar, and is also 'a lithium battery' for £5000 and think I'll just pay the the £5k ?

 

 

There are many of us on the forum that could do a better job of managing safety on our boat than the BSS does, but it is all written around the lowest common denominator to 'catch' those with neither knowledge or the will to make their boat safe for 3rd parties.

[cheesegas]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

You know that, and probably many folk doing DIY lithium installs know it, but, currently there is no requirement / specification/ check / monitoring to exactly what chemistry are fitted to a boat.

Would a BSS examiner look at a 'lump' on a boat and say 'thats fine it's LiPo4" ?

Indeed, but someone who has the knowledge to repurpose an NMC vehicle battery will also know about its chemistry - these batteries aren't an easy swap like an LFP with a built in BMS. There's data lines to connect up, protocols to translate, a lot of very in depth bespoke work to get it to be usable in a boat. It's well beyond the realms of your average boat DIYer, it needs a good chunk of electronics and IT knowledge.

 

I agree that there should be a check in the BSS to ensure that they're LFP, but I'm yet to see a non-LFP fitted to a boat. The exception at the moment seems to be the larger power banks, most of which have LFP cells inside but some of the medium sized ones have NMC.

[Momac]

43 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But what “suitable qualification” are you talking about? As far as I know such qualification doesn’t exist and correspondingly there is no requirement for one, unlike for gas.

So if I wanted a lithium battery system fitting on my boat there is no one I could employ to do the job?

 

[cheesegas]

Just now, Momac said:

So if I wanted a lithium battery system fitting on my boat there is no one I could employ to do the job?

That's not what we're saying. There are lots of people who are capable of fitting a lithium battery system to your boat, that's no problem.

 

However, there is no qualification to prove to your insurers on paper that the person is capable of doing it in a safe manner. As I mentioned earlier, the British Marine Electrical Technician qualification is a very basic 2 day affair which is impossible to fail, and doesn't cover lithium batteries at all. It's just a formality which you need to have in order to get liability insurance so you can do electrical work on boats.

[Momac]

14 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

...there is no qualification to prove to your insurers on paper that the person is capable of doing it in a safe manner.

So how would you define a capable person?

 

 

[cheesegas]

Just now, Momac said:

So how would you define a capable person?

That's exactly my point. There is currently no qualification which defines what a capable person is in the eyes of insurance companies etc.

 

Personally, I'd define it as someone who installs according to the Small Boats ISO and BSS, and has had product-specific (eg. Victron) training if needed. Even still, the ISO isn't all encompassing on best practices, which have to be learned elsewhere. 

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

That's exactly my point. There is currently no qualification which defines what a capable person is in the eyes of insurance companies etc.

 

Personally, I'd define it as someone who installs according to the Small Boats ISO and BSS, and has had product-specific (eg. Victron) training if needed. Even still, the ISO isn't all encompassing on best practices, which have to be learned elsewhere. 

And anyway, there are plenty of people with certificates for doing something, who are hopelessly incompetent. And plenty of people with no bits of paper to wave at you, who are great.

[magnetman]

Maybe rather than asking for proof of installation the unsurance companies will just charge a higher premium if you admit to having lithium batteries. 

 

 

[cheesegas]

Just now, nicknorman said:

And anyway, there are plenty of people with certificates for doing something, who are hopelessly incompetent. And plenty of people with no bits of paper to wave at you, who are great.

Indeed, there's a lot of people who have done the certificates and wave them around! The BMET is the worst offender for this, I see people touting this qualification like it's difficult to get and worth something, when in reality anyone who's done a bit of boat electrical DIY can pass it.

 

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Maybe rather than asking for proof of installation the unsurance companies will just charge a higher premium if you admit to having lithium batteries. 

I don't see what the greater risk to the insurance company is though? Increased value of the boat perhaps? If I were an insurance company, I'd charge a higher premium for having an e-scooter/bike charged on board, as they have a pretty bad track record of safety, unlike an LFP leisure battery.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You know that, and probably many folk doing DIY lithium installs know it, but, currently there is no requirement / specification/ check / monitoring to exactly what chemistry are fitted to a boat.

Would a BSS examiner look at a 'lump' on a boat and say 'thats fine it's LiPo4" ?

 

Would a DIYer (the man on the Clapham Omnibus) look at an ex-vehicle battery for £1000, or choose something that looks similar, and is also 'a lithium battery' for £5000 and think I'll just pay the the £5k ?

 

There are many of us on the forum that could do a better job of managing safety on our boat than the BSS does, but it is all written around the lowest common denominator to 'catch' those with neither knowledge or the will to make their boat safe for 3rd parties.

As I've said before, it's no different to diesel vs. petrol -- most people understand that petrol is much more hazardous, take more care with it, and this is reflected in BSS/RCR rules for boat installation which are much stricter for petrol. It's not difficult to tell which is which.

 

Same applies to lithium batteries -- LFP are safe, and are always labelled as such on the case and in documents (I assume most people can read), and don't need any special precautions -- if anything they need less than LA does. Other chemistries like NMC are *much* more dangerous, and should quite simply be banned from installation on boats -- and that includes ex-EV batteries, most of which are NMC or similar today, though that might well change in future as more EVs use LFP because they're cheaper.

 

Simple rule -- if it's specified and labelled as LFP (or LTO, but these are vanishingly rare), it's safe and can be installed. Anything else -- either not labelled/specified (e.g. ex-EV) or NMC/similar -- is potentially dangerous and should be banned.

 

I really don't understand why anyone -- including examiners, electricians, inspectors, insurers, boat owners, and posters on CWDF -- finds this so difficult to understand... 😞 

Edited January 30, 2025 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Simple rule -- if it's specified and labelled as LFP (or LTO, but these are vanishingly rare), it's safe and can be installed. Anything else -- either not labelled/specified (e.g. ex-EV) or NMC/similar -- is dangerous and should be banned.

 

I really don't understand why anyone -- including examiners, electricians, inspectors, insurers, boat owners, and posters on CWDF -- finds this so difficult to understand...

 

It is not difficult to understand (you regularly make it very clear), so who is responsible for making the decision, and enforcing the decision, to allow only LFP technology batteries on 'small craft'.

 

There are authorities who certify boats above the size of 'small boats' such as the MCA in the UK.

They have very detailed specifications and testing of 'Inland Waterways' boats.

 

 

 

 

6 MCA Surveyors’ powers
6.1 MCA Surveyors have the power to inspect any inland waterway non-passenger vessel
at any reasonable time, and to prevent it from operating if they have reason to believe that its
condition, or manner of operation, present a serious risk to the safety of those onboard, other
waterway users or the environment.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It is not difficult to understand (you regularly make it very clear), so who is responsible for making the decision, and enforcing the decision, to allow only LFP technology batteries on 'small craft'.

 

There are authorities who certify boats above the size of 'small boats' such as the MCA in the UK.

They have very detailed specifications and testing of 'Inland Waterways' boats.

 

 

 

 

6 MCA Surveyors’ powers
6.1 MCA Surveyors have the power to inspect any inland waterway non-passenger vessel
at any reasonable time, and to prevent it from operating if they have reason to believe that its
condition, or manner of operation, present a serious risk to the safety of those onboard, other
waterway users or the environment.

 

How is this any different to ensuring that petrol installations are safe, or gas installations?

Yes somebody has to do this, but we've dealt with petrol and gas (and LA batteries!) for many years by regulation/inspection. I fail to see why exactly the same can't be done for LFP/lithium batteries.
 

It really *isn't* rocket science -- or even rocket engineering, which is much harder... 😉 

Edited January 30, 2025 by IanD

[magnetman]

Don't get the MCA involved ! 

 

 

[David Schweizer]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 or proper monitoring, handling and maintenance/replacement. I think good fortune has very little to do with it. They leak acid when the case gets cracked by mechanical damage or gorillas on terminal bolts. They explode when they start shorting internally and the owner ignores the longer recharge times, faster discharge times, and horrible smell.

 

The only way good fortune may come into it is if your charger went faulty, or you managed to get a badly assembled battery.

 

I did monitor the batteries on a regular basis, but rather than install an expensive monitoring system, relied upon good old fashioned voltmeters and ammeters, together with a Sterling Advanced Battery Regulator. I had a  battery charger on board, but cannot remember ever using it on my batteries. We tended to move every day which ensured that the batteries were always being re-charged.. The US batteries we had on the boat were desisigned to power golf buggies, small fork lift trucks etc and would tolerate being heavily discharged, without any damage occuring.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2025 by David Schweizer

[magnetman]

The way people use Boats has changed a lot recently. Less moving and more power hungry equipment. 

 

Some people routinely use their main engine for charging while stationary. 

 

I have never done that but it is common.