Tankage for a month of splendid isolation.

[system 4-50]

40 minutes ago, dmr said:

If you are single handing then turning the engine off in locks makes a lot of sense.

On some narrow locks in some situations I prefer to keep the engine on and in gear and ride the gate when single handing.

[dmr]

I've done very little single handing of locks and find it stressful and hard work, but it is a big boat. I have watched lots of single handers and its very interesting with lots of different techniques. I know that one single hander on this forum can get through a lock faster than we can do it with two of us. Maybe we should have a single handing locks thread 😀

 

If you leave the boat in gear then going up the boat might well let itself out of the lock, which could be really bad, or really good if you get it right.

[David Mack]

One point that doesn't seem to have been queried so far in this thread is why the OP is going for a new build. He has no experience of canal boating, and admits that the discussion to date has identified all sorts of differences from his yachting knowledge, and that his design decisions are changing as a result. And so it is more than likely that as he develops his thinking, gets the boat built and then uses it for a bit, more things will emerge that he will wish he had done differently, but by then it will be too late and/or difficult and costly to change.

New boats depreciate significantly, and probably more so if they are not of fairly standard design easy to sell on to the mainstream market. The bespoke boatbuilders all have a waiting list so it will be some time before the OP can actually get afloat. By contrast, second hand boats are half the price or less to buy, and can be resold for much the same as they cost, and are available at pretty short notice.

The OP should seriously consider buying second hand first (and inevitably compromising some of his particular aspirations), get some experience of living aboard, of what works and what doesn't, and what in practice is important (probably rather different from what he currently thinks is important). And then he will be in a much better position to spec out his 'forever' craft. And if it turns out he finds life on the cut is not for him, he can sell up and move on with much less damage to his bank account.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

If you are single handing then turning the engine off in locks makes a lot of sense.

 

If you are single handing then getting off the boat in locks makes even more sense. Then it doesn't matter how much NOx is down there in the lock!

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

if you are single handing then getting off the boat in locks makes even more sense

 

 

Particularly if you want the lock filling, gates opening etc.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

One point that doesn't seem to have been queried so far in this thread is why the OP is going for a new build. He has no experience of canal boating, and admits that the discussion to date has identified all sorts of differences from his yachting knowledge, and that his design decisions are changing as a result. And so it is more than likely that as he develops his thinking, gets the boat built and then uses it for a bit, more things will emerge that he will wish he had done differently, but by then it will be too late and/or difficult and costly to change.

New boats depreciate significantly, and probably more so if they are not of fairly standard design easy to sell on to the mainstream market. The bespoke boatbuilders all have a waiting list so it will be some time before the OP can actually get afloat. By contrast, second hand boats are half the price or less to buy, and can be resold for much the same as they cost, and are available at pretty short notice.

The OP should seriously consider buying second hand first (and inevitably compromising some of his particular aspirations), get some experience of living aboard, of what works and what doesn't, and what in practice is important (probably rather different from what he currently thinks is important). And then he will be in a much better position to spec out his 'forever' craft. And if it turns out he finds life on the cut is not for him, he can sell up and move on with much less damage to his bank account.

 

All excellent suggestions I have to wholly agree with.

 

Further, my grandad (a boatbuilder, albeit wooden ones) used to say the first boat his customers had built was inevitably all wrong so they would get another built. The second would be broadly right for them but it was the third build that was bang on in every way. 

[Gybe Ho]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Where will your gas bottles be stored ?

Many are fitted in the bow in front of the well-deck. and 'traditionally' the front of the well deck incorporates the water tank to keep it as low as possible (CofG) We had a 1000 litre water tank built into our bow with the bow and the base plate forming 3 'sides' of the tank.

 

You will also need to counter balance the weight of your Poo-Tank and fuel tank.

 

 

A common solution for a square stern "Euro" cruiser narrowboats is a pair of small lockers each side of the rear entrance and draining direct overboard. An example can be seen in this timestamped YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgqwGrMzHwk&t=1110s

 

I expect to fit the main water tank under the bed though I am concerned this will become a giant cold bridge that will attract condensation.

 

I am concerned the boat would trim bow down with 700l of water and a generator upfront.

 

 

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

And of course a properly fitted out back cabin is useful for far more than storing junk. It has a bed, a table, a stove by your feet when cruising in cold weather, seating and almost everything the trad boatman needed in a living space.

 

I nice warm remote working office as well but some of the cherished boatman's cabin features would need to be butchered to accommodate a desk, office chair and big screen. 

[Mike Tee]

Have you thought about getting a large modern campervan? Then winters could be spent in southern Spain where apparently good football is available if you like that sort of thing.

[MtB]

4 hours ago, Ken X said:

Indeed, this is us tucked up for the night after a days winter boating. Everything to hand and very warm when winter boating.

 

I'm a bit worried about this photo. Where's the GRAVY????!!!!!!!!!!

[cheesegas]

26 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

A common solution for a square stern "Euro" cruiser narrowboats is a pair of small lockers each side of the rear entrance and draining direct overboard. An example can be seen in this timestamped YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgqwGrMzHwk&t=1110s

 

I expect to fit the main water tank under the bed though I am concerned this will become a giant cold bridge that will attract condensation.

 

I am concerned the boat would trim bow down with 700l of water and a generator upfront.

I have a rear mounted gas locker - two 19kg bottles against the rear bulkhead. The locker makes for a handy step up onto the roof, I painted the lid with non slip stuff for that purpose.

 

My water tank is almost 1000 litres as there's no gas locker intruding on it. However, this does mean the front deck is quite high so it's a good step up from inside. The distance from stem to front doors is shorter than boats with a front gas locker so I get a little more living space, but there's still space at the very front of the boat to store a portable generator and a few other bits. It doesn't trim down at the bow at all when the tank's full either.

[Gybe Ho]

19 hours ago, David Mack said:

One point that doesn't seem to have been queried so far in this thread is why the OP is going for a new build. He has no experience of canal boating

...

And then he will be in a much better position to spec out his 'forever' craft. And if it turns out he finds life on the cut is not for him, he can sell up and move on with much less damage to his bank account.

 

My personal Best Before Date is not in the distant future so I want to crack on. I am looking at new build shells, not a finished new build.

 

But you raise some good points.

 

I do not think there is an ideal age of boat to to buy into. Below £40k can be problematic, YouTube is full of new entrants to narrowboating who think they have purchased a home and vessel to explore England. In practice many of these turn into tear out projects where the total labour is similar to a diy fitout. A baseplate overplate repair bill might be 30% of a new shell price.

 

Moving up to £80k and it is likely the battery bank is pre lithium and a set of lead/acid batteries will need whole scale replacement. Many electric cabinets are looking sad by 15 years of age due to multiple chaotic owner upgrades. There are a surprising number of single glazed examples on the market. At £80k most examples do not have enough solar for my needs.

 

There are many design details that would rule out a boat for me. I would not want the obligation of being responsible for mid ship classic engine. I don't get semi trad sterns, I definitely don't want an ex hire design with an excess number of windows that resemble a 1960's railway passenger coach, conversely I don't want a row of small portholes.  Tug decks look good but I cannot afford the loss of space. I would likely need to perform major surgery on any interior to build useable office space.

 

The next level up is the cheaper end of new build. There are some awful examples around where builders seem to be flipping unsold sailaway stock with cheap fitouts. I saw one recently where the partial bulkhead on one end of a dinette was just a section of 18mm ply stood on end, no capping or trimming. I would be embarrassed if my diy sailaway looked that bad on completion.

 

One benefit of an extended 6 month design phase is that when the cash is ready to make a decision I will be able to look at the secondhand market and assess boats relative to my ideal design. For example as a result of this thread I have concluded that water tankage between 400L and 700L is fine, likewise 250-500 diesel and 250-400 blackwater. If a secondhand boat is close enough to my ideal and the pitting and surveyor assessment is ok, then I would buy it, head straight off to a drydock for a shotblast and epoxy base plate paint, then I would up the solar to +800w, ditch the lead acids for 400Ah of lithium and head off to explore. I would even learn to cope with a cassette toilet.

 

There are plenty of YouTube vLoggers who bought mid value secondhand boats and are having a great time cruising continuously.

Edited July 16 by Gybe Ho

[Gybe Ho]

1 hour ago, Mike Tee said:

Have you thought about getting a large modern campervan? Then winters could be spent in southern Spain where apparently good football is available if you like that sort of thing.

 

A 35ft sailing yacht in a Spanish marina appeals. There are ex.pat communities in places like Lagos Marina Portugal. Annual costs for sustaining that lifestyle in the Med are higher than narrowboat continuous cruising because marinas are difficult to avoid. Year around anchoring in the Caribbean is viable but food is expensive and so is boat and medical insurance. Brexit has spoiled a lot of continuous cruising in the Med as boats now do the "Schengen Shuffle" to work around the 6 month rule. Discovering that your grandmother was born in Ireland is worth £1000's to a Briton trying to cruise continuously in Europe! Turkey is now popular and you can actually find a dentist.

 

In general bluewater sailing running costs are higher because cutting corners is dangerous compared to conking out on the Cut and appealing to the CRT for an overstay extension on mechanical grounds.  The French RLNI will bill a hapless sailor who needs help. Subscribing to Elons skylark internet service will cost more than a CRT license now he has clamped down international cruising yachts. Crossing the Atlantic takes serious dosh for equipment upgrades.

 

The dangerous thing is that I have the knowledge to do that and Trinidad is a great place to pick up projects yachts at a knockdown price. That avoids crossing the Atlantic which is tedious. No No I must cancel that thought.

[LadyG]

I suggested on page 1 that the OP forget his own design ideas and buy a good second hand NB which has been set up for liveaboard, there is no point re inventing the wheel.

Spend time  drawing up a short list of those who build good boats. A total repaint can be arranged if necessary, maybe a battery upgrade, even a galley upgrade, 

If  the boat has been fitted by a top class professional expect to pay a premium. 

At the end of the day, he will need to adapt to living on a boat

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16 by LadyG

[Peanut]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I'm a bit worried about this photo. Where's the GRAVY????!!!!!!!!!!

Can you not see, the cupboard is bare, there is no food. A far more worrying situation.

[LadyG]

14 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I am still adjusting to the economics of narrowboating. In the UK, coastal marina operators run special winter discounts to use capacity vacated by yachts that are lifted ashore for the winter.  This tradition of a winter liftout is in decline due in part to traditional boatyards being converted to cosmopolitan waterside apartments. Even so five winter months are often priced equivalent to 2 summer months.

 

I did wonder why there was much emphasis on roof access as I had planned to use the gunwales for trips forward. I assumed this was not mentioned as an option because in a lock, particularly a 7' lock, the lock wall and cabin top create an unusable tight space. Is your narrowboat an 80's or 90's vintage design where the cabin tops lean inwards more? My BMI is < 25 which is considered slim in contemporary Britain.

 

I am not following your solar/centerline advice. Can the problem be solved with a pair of centreline rings on the roof and two rigged ropes?

My boat is the standard design with sloping sides, built by Tyler Wilson, it looks as stylish as can be given the fact it is a standard NB. 

No way could I buy some of the home built steel boxes seen on the inland waterways, or a squashed frog widebeam, they offend my eye.

I cant clamber about on the roof due to lack of agility, but if you want to do locks quickly, that is the way to go, it can be achieved by having the solar panels set to one side or narrow panels.

Solar wont be reliable in winter, plus I use the engine to provide hot water in summer when the fire is unlit.

When  approaching a lock landing or mooring, I have a thick braided rope on my cabin top, it is about 3m longer than the distance from centreline to cabin. 

Having a long rope is better than a short rope because you can get it round a bollard. You may not be strong enough to hold a boat without taking advantage of bollards and rings if there is a very strong wind or river current, or the boat is still moving forward when you jump off:

                                                f=ma

There is one strong point on my roof, it has quite sharp edges so I have a large green pin bow shackle to which I attach the ropes using a round turn and two half hitches, this will hold the boat in adverse conditions. The rope should not be easily caught under the solar panels for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, dmr said:

I've done very little single handing of locks and find it stressful and hard work, but it is a big boat. I have watched lots of single handers and its very interesting with lots of different techniques. I know that one single hander on this forum can get through a lock faster than we can do it with two of us. Maybe we should have a single handing locks thread 😀

 

If you leave the boat in gear then going up the boat might well let itself out of the lock, which could be really bad, or really good if you get it right.

I once knocked the morse control into gear as I got off at the stern,  fortunately I was able to leap on at the bow, I made it, but now I always check the throttle when I get off.

Edited July 16 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

A common solution for a square stern "Euro" cruiser narrowboats is a pair of small lockers each side of the rear entrance and draining direct overboard.

 

Indeed, but as discussed, the Square sterned boats often become 'fixed' floating flats due the diffficulties of getting them 'off the bankside' and the cilling risks when locking. 

 

You said you had decided to go for a conventinal stern design !

 

The square stern is another modern quirk (like London White) as it gives them a bigger patio. It attracts folks who want a flat but cannot afford one.

 

NB - Gas lockers must drain overboard or you won't get your BSSC.

Edited July 16 by Alan de Enfield

[system 4-50]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

the Square sterned boats often become 'fixed' floating flats due the diffficulties of getting them 'off the bankside' and the cilling risks when locking. 

Twaddle.  IMHO.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

Twaddle.  IMHO.

 

Have you watched any of these things trying to get off the bank ?

Push the front out and then try and 'drive' away and the stern simply slides along and armco, wall, (or whatever) look at the stern of some of them paint rubbed off and scratches.

 

The better way would be to reverse off using the taper of the bow to be able to 'rotate'.

 

 

[Gybe Ho]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

NB - Gas lockers must drain overboard or you won't get your BSSC.

 

 

I assume this design challenge has been solved in the cruiser stern gas lockers that likely account for 50% of narrowboat production over the past five years.

 

Re, "square sterns". I confused the discussion by conflating squared off cruiser stern railings with square hull sterns. Both versions feature gas lockers of the type I was referring to. Here is a round hull example that illustrates my point https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoVVh_EbG0g&t=550s

 

 

 

8 hours ago, LadyG said:

Solar wont be reliable in winter, plus I use the engine to provide hot water in summer when the fire is unlit...

 

 

Offset solar panel mounting, that is an interesting idea to maximize wattage but maintain a fore/aft cabin top walkway. For summer hot water I planned to use the solar dump divert trickery build into a modern Victron Easy or Multi unit.

 

Thanks for clarifying the centreline rope solar panel snag risk.

 

"Squashed Frog Beam" HaHa not heard that one before.

[nicknorman]

The stern thing highlights the subtleties of good hull design based on centuries of experience, vs something that someone thought would be good to maximise space and be easy to build. Our boat starts to taper slightly at the waterline, at about 10’ from the stern, and then of course has a rounded stern. All of which makes the boat easier to handle getting off the bank.

[Mike Tee]

Simple fix on the centre line fouling the solar panels is to have two lines, one each side.

[LadyG]

14 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

My personal Best Before Date is not in the distant future so I want to crack on. I am looking at new build shells, not a finished new build.

 

But you raise some good points.

 

I do not think there is an ideal age of boat to to buy into. Below £40k can be problematic, YouTube is full of new entrants to narrowboating who think they have purchased a home and vessel to explore England. In practice many of these turn into tear out projects where the total labour is similar to a diy fitout. A baseplate overplate repair might be 30% of a new shell.

 

Moving up to £80k and it is likely the battery bank is pre lithium and a set of lead/acid batteries will need whole scale replacement. Many electric cabinets are looking sad by 15 years of age due to multiple chaotic owner upgrades. There are a surprising number of single glazed examples on the market. At £80k most examples do not have enough solar for my needs.

 

There are many design details that would rule out a boat for me. I would not want the obligation of being responsible for mid ship classic engine. I don't get semi trad sterns, I definitely don't want an ex hire design with an excess number of windows that resemble a 1960's railway passenger coach, conversely I don't want a row of small portholes.  Tug decks look good but I cannot afford the loss of space. I would likely need to perform major surgery on any interior to build useable office space.

 

The next level up is the cheaper end of new build. There are some awful examples around where builders seem to be flipping unsold sailaway stock with cheap fitouts. I saw one recently where the partial bulkhead on one end of a dinette was just a section of 18mm ply stood on end, no capping or trimming. I would be embarrassed if my diy sailaway looked that bad on completion.

 

One benefit of an extended 6 month design phase is that when the cash is ready to make a decision I will be able to look at the secondhand market and assess boats relative to my ideal design. For example as a result of this thread I have concluded that water tankage between 400L and 700L is fine, likewise 250-500 diesel and 250-400 blackwater. If a secondhand boat is close enough to my ideal and the pitting and surveyor assessment is ok, then I would buy it, head straight off to a drydock for a shotblast and epoxy base plate paint, then I would up the solar to +800w, ditch the lead acids for 400Ah of lithium and head off to explore. I would even learn to cope with a cassette toilet.

 

There are plenty of YouTube vLoggers who bought mid value second boats and having a great time cruising continuously.

Or you could just find a good boat and just go boating ...

Not likely you can get all these upgrades done in a short time:  you need find good fitters, and book a slot.

Even less likely that you can "crack on " if you are ordering a new build, lol.

9 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Simple fix on the centre line fouling the solar panels is to have two lines, one each side.

I've already worked that out, but you still need to have the centrepoint in sight from your position on land or it can  foul the panels if they are on a frame and you are at the stern.

Edited July 16 by LadyG

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

I've already worked that out, but you still need to have the centrepoint in sight from your position on land or it can  foul the panels if they are on a frame and you are at the stern.

 

Not if you run them through fairleads.

[Gybe Ho]

I can no longer edit the opening thread post. A correction to the original diesel generation to battery kWh's is needed that will reduce the monthly estimate of diesel burned to generate 25kWh of electricity. I had inverted the formula.

 

A litre of diesel contains 10 kWh of raw energy but a diesel engine only extracts 3 kWh. Instead of 3 litres of diesel burned to generate 1 kWh I now apply 0.5 litre per kWh, the corrected section of my OP should now read.

 

• Given a 1000w array of solar I hope that solar will generate 1/3 kWh per day in February but that still leaves a deficit of 15 + ( 15 x 0.666 ) kWh in the month assuming 1 kWh per day electric consumption.
• Therefore I need to generate 25 kWh in the month and assuming 3 0.5 litres of diesel to generate 1kWh and push into an ample lithium bank = 75 13 litres of diesel for electricity. (Note: assume a Beta 43 with a couple of 100amp 24volt alternators)

Edited July 16 by Gybe Ho

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Not if you run them through fairleads.

Don't even go there..... Ive managed for five years so I won't be spending money on fripperies,  It would stop the paintwork being worn, but I can touch that up if necessary.

I like to see the line resting on the roof, not hanging over the edge.

Edited July 16 by LadyG