Tankage for a month of splendid isolation.

[Mike Tee]

2000/2001 - christmas eve through January?

[Gybe Ho]

4 minutes ago, PeterF said:

We have 420 litres fresh water, 2 on board, shower alternative days and the tank does 10 days. There is probably on average 1 washing machine load each week. Showers are of the navy type to conserve water.

 

Black water tank is 330 litres, recent Jabsco macerator toilet and if we pushed it to the limit could just make 3 weeks but it would be busting at the seams. We do try to minimise flush water...

 

 

This is interesting, your figures would scale inline with my single person 30 day target.  It looks as though I need to move once a fortnight to reduce the size of the fitted water tank needed plus I don't want CRT overstay yellow cards.

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

Mascerators are great.  Drop throughs are primitive.  Depends on your perception of quality of life.  For me mascerator every time, with a nice china toilet.

 

Some on here recommend the banging 2 stones together method of laundry washing - I could not manage on just 2 loads per month and a decent washing machine is a must-have.

 

 

Good to hear a vote for the electric macerator option. Re. the laundry the plan was to leave with zero backlog and then catch up when back at a water point. My laundry water allowance in the original budget was for two mid month washes when off grid.

 

Anyhow it looks as though 2 to 3 weeks of splendid off grid isolation is doable, longer would require a disproportionate investment in oversized tanks. The heating fuel budget requirement is better than I thought, I was probably influenced by the drip-feed diesel stove consumption reports.

 

My 10.5 month continuous cruiser plan looks viable but this assumes I can phone up any marina on the 1st of December and book in for 6 weeks.

 

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

My 10.5 month continuous cruiser plan looks viable but this assumes I can phone up any marina on the 1st of December and book in for 6 weeks.

If you are going to cc for the rest of the year, why do you need a marina berth for 6 weeks? 

You may be lucky, but many marinas will either have no space or will have let 4-6 month winter moorings which will already be occupied. If you do find somewhere you will be paying a premium rate compared with a longer stay.

[Gybe Ho]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

If you are going to cc for the rest of the year, why do you need a marina berth for 6 weeks? 

You may be lucky, but many marinas will either have no space or will have let 4-6 month winter moorings which will already be occupied. If you do find somewhere you will be paying a premium rate compared with a longer stay.

 

Good point there is no absolute reason. I started off with an assumption that more than 8 months of towpath off grid living would become a muddy miserable struggle with a petrol generator buzzing for a couple of hours each day. Other vLoggers admit they reach a point of capitulation during winter and bail into a marina berth for their second winter. As I have tuned into the technology and have done my sums I now reckon that 10 to 11 months is viable and tolerable.

 

What helped was a post from @IanD a few months ago when he suggested that a pair of big 100 amp 24v alternators on a Beta 43 could whack a few kWh into a lithium bank per hour. Now I am hoping in mid winter an hour's run of the main diesel with a healthy load = 2 days of domestic consumption. I could live with that. The other discovery is that 1200w of solar with high tilt frames can make a measurable contribution across a winter month and so during January the towpath charging runs of the main diesel might become every third day.

 

The 3rd discovery is that DIY lithium 3.4v cell banks are now under £200 per 100Ah at 12v. The output of those dual alternators would make a good pairing with 800Ah hours of lithium given Victron's 0.25c charge rate advice.  Now it is possible to dispense with fitting a crazy expensive Travel Pack on the B43 and run a washing machine off the invertor instead.

 

Perhaps I don't need a marina after all. Could booking a CRT winter mooring for two months be enough. I have no idea what the discount is relative to a marina. I was assuming £300 per month for adhoc winter marina stays.

Edited July 15 by Gybe Ho

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Are you saying I won't find goats milk dispensaries at every mile marker along the cut?

I buy filtered milk eg Cravendale, lasts 7 days if  kept in a fridge. 

Oat milk lasts longer but not so good In tea.

UHT lasts six months unopened but its got an aftertaste.

My fridge will store chunky cod fish fingers (much better than the usual frozen fish), and a pack of peas, and does not consume a lot of electric if not opened frequently.

Cheese keeps for a week or two.

Small onions last for weeks.

I considered a short term CRT winter mooring , but seemed a bit pointless if one only moves every two weeks anyway.

I'm not convinced a marina wants any short term boaters in winter, they really want to maximise their income.

Forward planning does not work very well considering stoppages, planned and unplanned and other variables which crop up all the time.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15 by LadyG

[LadyG]

6 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Much appreciate your figures and experience. I was expecting to let the fire burn out overnight and bring the accommodation up to temp each morning with the diesel central heating but this is based on theory.

 

Yes a 1000 litre watertank is bordering on the humongous, my prop might cavitate until a 1/4 ton of water is consumed. As you say moving on every 2 weeks reduces the water tankage requirement. I will have to dig out my old winter sailing clothing, I might enjoy a 2 hour January cruise with the right gear, insulated salopette trousers are a game changer.

 

My 100 litre per week showering water budget was a big guess. When sailing we used a 20 litre solar heated shower bag which equated to a very brief shower.

 

If I can afford an 800 Ah lithium bank I would leave the marina at the start of the month with a 5kWh credit which trims 15 litres off the the towpath generation budget. I hope that high tilt solar panels would perform better than my original budget above, so more savings there.

I would not like to cover the roof with tilting panels as you need to have good access to the roof and centreline for safety, assuming that you intend to actually do any boating.

It might be a good idea to buy a good second hand liveaboard boat and see how you get on.

6 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Much appreciate your figures and experience. I was expecting to let the fire burn out overnight and bring the accommodation up to temp each morning with the diesel central heating but this is based on theory.

 

Yes a 1000 litre watertank is bordering on the humongous, my prop might cavitate until a 1/4 ton of water is consumed. As you say moving on every 2 weeks reduces the water tankage requirement. I will have to dig out my old winter sailing clothing, I might enjoy a 2 hour January cruise with the right gear, insulated salopette trousers are a game changer.

 

My 100 litre per week showering water budget was a big guess. When sailing we used a 20 litre solar heated shower bag which equated to a very brief shower.

 

If I can afford an 800 Ah lithium bank I would leave the marina at the start of the month with a 5kWh credit which trims 15 litres off the the towpath generation budget. I hope that high tilt solar panels would perform better than my original budget above, so more savings there.

I would not like to cover the roof with tilting panels as you need to have good access to the roof and centreline for safety, assuming that you intend to actually do any boating.

It might be a good idea to buy a good second hand liveaboard boat and see how you get on.

[lampini]

May I ask - is 60ft an essential if you're solo-ing? If you do need a marina break any time, more money! Also blacking etc.. 

Also - mud can be a real grind by February.. some winters are worse than others, but not something to be overlooked. One winter I had little shortened luggage straps round me wellies cos the mud was so bad it would try to suck them off - as it were 😂

It can really get you down if it's still bad in May 😂

[GUMPY]

10 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

1963, 1947?

IIRC January 1997.

No snow just freezing temperatures, Temperature was below zero even in the daytime.

[LadyG]

I cc up North, most of the towpaths are tarmacked.

My general strategy is to move every week unless there are some good shoreside or stoppages reasons

So ive generally always got half a tank of water, one casette empty, fresh food topped up. 

[cuthound]

My boat has a 225 litre diesel tank, it lasts for about 25 days cruising at 6 hours per day with a Beta 43 engine.

 

It has 400 litre fresh water and black water tanks. They last 2 of us about 2 weeks and 4 weeks respectively.

 

One tip, macerator toilets come with a "tank full" light which is very conservative. I fitted an MCS waste tank gauge and found the light was coming on when the tank was just under 50% full. 

 

I empty the black water tank at not more than 90% full, so since fitting it have virtually halved my pump out costs.

Edited July 15 by cuthound
"tank full", not thankfully. Bluddy spilchucker!

[LadyG]

I have a 57ft boat, with trad stern which will transit all canals. 

I dont see the need for a 60ft boat unless you have bedrooms, and children. It wont sell as easily, which may be important, and there are less mooring and winding oportunities. Might need a bigger engine than in a 57ft.

I dont use my blackwater tank. It does not work. 

if having a boat built it would.be a Tyler Wilson trad with portholes and windows, just the same as now. Id have a really nice shower room with radiator from back boiler, as i have now.

Buying a new boat requires optimism, patience and deep pockets.

With modern batteries, maybe two alternaters, expect minimum probs with power, provided you dont try to run all the gadgets used on land.

Edited July 15 by LadyG

[Gybe Ho]

8 hours ago, LadyG said:

I would not like to cover the roof with tilting panels as you need to have good access to the roof and centreline for safety

 

 

A 60 footer with a roof crammed full of solar panels should accommodate 1.8kW of capacity. I hope 1.2kW will allow enough space for a walkway but this is something I have not yet planned in detail. I see some narrow boats fitted with near full width 400w tilting panels and wonder how the crew can move along the roof to access an awkwardly placed lock ladder. Stick-on panels solve the access problem but would contribute less mid winter without elevation.

 

Without real narrowboating experience I cannot picture how often a singlehander needs to scramble up onto the cabin to deal with an urgent problem.

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

My boat has a 225 litre diesel tank, it lasts for about 25 days cruising at 6 hours per day with a Beta 43 engine.

 

It has 400 litre fresh water and black water tanks. They last 2 of us about 2 weeks and 4 weeks respectively.

 

...

 

The more I think about tankage I realize the 1050 Water / 150 Black ratio from my original post is not good. 700 / 400 would be less of a constraint for a continuous cruiser in view of frequent water access points and the cost of pump outs.

 

Until I read your post I thought those gauges were overpriced, now I get it.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

Without real narrowboating experience I cannot picture how often a singlehander needs to scramble up onto the cabin to deal with an urgent problem.

 

Not so much an 'urgent probem', but I find when single handing I need to climb up and walk along part of the roof either to get to the lock ladder or to get back onto the boat from the lock ladder, in almost every lock. A roof covered in solar panels would make this quite difficult unless the stick-on type.

 

When I lived aboard I had a row of 600mm wide panels flat along the middle of the roof, giving enough space to walk past them along either side.

[Mike Tee]

How will you get off the boat when in a lock when ascending? If you plan on bowhauling into and out of locks that will probably at least triple your lock time from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. Descending locks is a similar issue. 

ETA- MtB beat me to it and phrased it much better!

Edited July 15 by Mike Tee

[MtB]

 

68ft NB by the way. Nice to have the extra space when living aboard.

 

[Gybe Ho]

8 hours ago, lampini said:

May I ask - is 60ft an essential if you're solo-ing? If you do need a marina break any time, more money! Also blacking etc.. 

Also - mud can be a real grind by February.. some winters are worse than others, but not something to be overlooked. One winter I had little shortened luggage straps round me wellies cos the mud was so bad it would try to suck them off - as it were 😂

It can really get you down if it's still bad in May 😂

 

I might be guilty of trying to recreate a floating apartment at present. A layout plan has been stabilizing in my head and it comes out at 60 to 62.

 

8' Rear cruiser deck and swim.

4' Utility

9' Galley

6' Dinette

10' Saloon

6' Bathroom

9' Bedroom

8' Well deck & Bow

 

I cannot see what can be reduced and the above assumes zero mm thickness for the bulkheads. The above is similar to the Oakhams 2023 layout which is proving popular with the green boat YouTubers at present.

 

 

Edited July 15 by Gybe Ho

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

8' Rear cruiser deck and swim.

 

Think hard about this. 

 

Steering an 8ft cruiser stern is not a comfortable experience compared to leaning in the hatches of a trad stern boat. If only because in the trad you have a slide in front of you to put the map on, and yer tea or beer!

 

Cruisers are especially not nice to steer in winter or bad weather as you are 6ft away from shelter and warmth, and especially not when the tiller bar is a bit low so you have to bend over slightly to keep your hand on it.

 

 

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Think hard about this. 

 

Steering an 8ft cruiser stern is not a comfortable experience compared to leaning in the hatches of a trad stern boat. If only because in the trad you have a slide in front of you to put the map on, and yer tea or beer!

 

Cruisers are especially not nice to steer in winter or bad weather as you are 6ft away from shelter and warmth, and especially not when the tiller bar is a bit low so you have to bend over slightly to keep your hand on it.

And the OP has said he will be alone on the boat, so the social aspect of a cruiser stern is less important. And he also plans to be CCing most of the winter, so there is a strong case for being able to steer standing on the cabin step, with the doors closed behind you and the slide pulled up to your body - even in the cold and rain, at least your bottom half stays warm and dry.

Replace the 8ft cruiser stern with a 3ft 6in trad stern and you reduce the overall length/increase the internal accommodation by 4ft 6in.

[Onewheeler]

Two of us are happy with a 600 L freshwater tank for twenty days in hot weather with showers morning and evening.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Mike Tee said:

How will you get off the boat when in a lock when ascending? If you plan on bowhauling into and out of locks that will probably at least triple your lock time from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. Descending locks is a similar issue. 

When singlehanding Belfast (71'6" and drawing 3') I find it easier to bowhaul into locks going up (unless the bottom gates are already open). I arrive at the bottom of the lock, put the bow fender on the gates and get off at the front with the bow rope. Tie the rope to a bollard if available or the gate handrail if not, and open the paddles. Boat sits on the gates in the middle of the V as the lock empties. Then open the gates (nearside gate only on wide locks), untie the rope and bowhaul in, strapping off on a convenient bollard. Much quicker than climbing on at the bow, making my way to the back of the boat, motoring in, making my way to the ladder then climbing out again.

[ditchcrawler]

15 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

My 10.5 month continuous cruiser plan looks viable but this assumes I can phone up any marina on the 1st of December and book in for 6 weeks.

 

 

 

I would say if you dont book by September you have no chance

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

How will you get off the boat when in a lock when ascending? If you plan on bowhauling into and out of locks that will probably at least triple your lock time from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. Descending locks is a similar issue. 

ETA- MtB beat me to it and phrased it much better!

I walk along the gunwales to the lock ladder, ive never walked on the roof. 

I use the centreline to control the boat when i am onshore, so I must have direct access to the centre fastening. If wind or river current take control of the boat you must have the ability to tie up to a bollard without ripping off the panels or losing the boat.

The stick on solar panels won't last long, and probably cost more than standard. I have seen them on an electric boat, very tidy.

 

[cheesegas]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

Think hard about this. 

 

Steering an 8ft cruiser stern is not a comfortable experience compared to leaning in the hatches of a trad stern boat. If only because in the trad you have a slide in front of you to put the map on, and yer tea or beer!

Cruisers are especially not nice to steer in winter or bad weather as you are 6ft away from shelter and warmth, and especially not when the tiller bar is a bit low so you have to bend over slightly to keep your hand on it.

Coming at it from another angle, I have a 45' cruiser stern and am a liveaboard. I find it much better than a trad (stayed on one for a few weeks whilst mine was being blacked/welded) as you can very easily enter/exit either end of the boat without having to clamber over an engine box and through two doorways and open a hatch. Pain in the butt with a backpack on. Back door with ex

 

Never found it an issue in the winter, and leaning forwards an extra foot to put my beer on the cabin roof has been fine too. 

 

As a liveaboard, it's nice to have some outside space to fix my bicycle, hang washing etc when there's no space between boat and towpath. I put a plank across the handrails to make a workbench.

 

3 hours ago, MtB said:

Not so much an 'urgent probem', but I find when single handing I need to climb up and walk along part of the roof either to get to the lock ladder or to get back onto the boat from the lock ladder, in almost every lock. A roof covered in solar panels would make this quite difficult unless the stick-on type.

When I lived aboard I had a row of 600mm wide panels flat along the middle of the roof, giving enough space to walk past them along either side.

3 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

How will you get off the boat when in a lock when ascending? If you plan on bowhauling into and out of locks that will probably at least triple your lock time from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. Descending locks is a similar issue. 

ETA- MtB beat me to it and phrased it much better!

For the first few months of owning my boat, I was told the same so I kept the roof clear as people were saying I'd have to walk on the roof. Never did, so I filled it with solar panels are storage, and I've still never had the need to. The back 4' is clear so I can hop up from the stern via the gas locker easily, but to get from front to back I find it easier to walk through the boat (cruiser stern, external steps so getting in is easy) or along the gunnels. I have roof bars rather than a ledge so holding on isn't hard though.

 

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

And the OP has said he will be alone on the boat, so the social aspect of a cruiser stern is less important. And he also plans to be CCing most of the winter, so there is a strong case for being able to steer standing on the cabin step, with the doors closed behind you and the slide pulled up to your body - even in the cold and rain, at least your bottom half stays warm and dry.

Replace the 8ft cruiser stern with a 3ft 6in trad stern and you reduce the overall length/increase the internal accommodation by 4ft 6in.

As above - never had an issue. The space in the engine room is the same as a cruiser stern, the only advantage is that you can store stuff in there as it's covered.

[Gybe Ho]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would say if you dont book by September you have no chance

 

I am still adjusting to the economics of narrowboating. In the UK, coastal marina operators run special winter discounts to use capacity vacated by yachts that are lifted ashore for the winter.  This tradition of a winter liftout is in decline due in part to traditional boatyards being converted to cosmopolitan waterside apartments. Even so five winter months are often priced equivalent to 2 summer months.

44 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I walk along the gunwales to the lock ladder, ive never walked on the roof. 

I use the centreline to control the boat when i am onshore, so I must have direct access to the centre fastening. If wind or river current take control of the

 

...

 

 

I did wonder why there was much emphasis on roof access as I had planned to use the gunwales for trips forward. I assumed this was not mentioned as an option because in a lock, particularly a 7' lock, the lock wall and cabin top create an unusable tight space. Is your narrowboat an 80's or 90's vintage design where the cabin tops lean inwards more? My BMI is < 25 which is considered slim in contemporary Britain.

 

I am not following your solar/centerline advice. Can the problem be solved with a pair of centreline rings on the roof and two rigged ropes?

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I am still adjusting to the economics of narrowboating. In the UK, coastal marina operators run special winter discounts to use capacity vacated by yachts that are lifted ashore for the winter.  This tradition of a winter liftout is in decline due in part to traditional boatyards being converted to cosmopolitan waterside apartments. Even so five winter months are often priced equivalent to 2 summer months.

 

We took a visitors mooring for a few days in Plymouth (at the Mayflower marina) for "The Cat", it was £30 a night but for that you got all the electric you could eat, potable water and your own bathroom, complete with bath, shower & sink. Very good restauant on site, mechanics and sailmakers on site - every thing you could want.

 

Being 23 foot beam they fitted on the outside pontoons alongside the moorings for the Princess boats awaiting sea trials..

 

We then took a swinging mooring off Torpoint.

 

Big neighbours alongside the swinging moorings.

 

Edited July 15 by Alan de Enfield