Tankage for a month of splendid isolation.

[LadyG]

4 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I never had the pleasure of cruising the Western Isles, it makes a favourable life-long impression on those who have sailed those waters. Marinas are more contentious in coastal sailing because the coastline is finite with limited natural shelters, I remember the community outrage when Yarmouth Isle of Wight was filled with pontoons.

 

I will have to Google "a supply of quarter bottles to pay for lobster" but I remember dimpled beer glasses before straight glasses became synonymous with male virility.

 

I just added a new row in the diy narrowboat fitout budget for Plastic Grass, now at a grand total of £25,500 with many more blanks to fill.

Anchor, chain, rope

Boathook, pole, roof rack for pole, and plank, if on K&A

Calor gas bottles (2), they won't be cheap., you can t buy them, but you can't get your money back either.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17 by LadyG

[Gybe Ho]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

Anchor, chain, rope

Boathook, pole, roof rack for pole, and plank, if on K&A

Calor gas bottles (2), they won't be cheap., you can t buy them, but you can't get your money back either.

 

 

Surprisingly the budget spreadsheet already has an entry of £150 for the initial hire of 2 calor bottles.

 

The floor will be scaffold planks and I hope in the £1500 budget for those there will be one leftover spare. They are 38mm thick so possibly over spec'ed and over weight for a shore plank?

 

Yes to the K&A, the winter street market culture of Bath and Devizes appeals and so does a summer on the upper reaches of the Thames near Lechlade. I was looking at the price banding of CRT winter moorings, the choice stretches of the K&A near Dunas, Bath and Devizes are highly banded, other people must have the same idea as me. In fact as I browsed the banding of winter moorings across England I had a thought of extracting a list of the Band 5 plus parts of the system to create a must-see touring map of the UK.

 

Still yet to price the every day stuff like Boathook, pole and mooring pins. I notice some of the cruising YouTubers have special screw-in mooring pins in their boat inventory.

[Peanut]

4 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

The floor will be scaffold planks and I hope in the £1500 budget for those there will be one leftover spare. They are 38mm thick so possibly over spec'ed and over weight for a shore plank?

Scaffold planks, seem like a good idea, and if well planned could give good access to the bilge, unlike the conventional ply sheeting, which prevents access. They will get pinned down by various bulkheads, kitchen cupboards, bathroom fittings, beds and the like. It will require some planning of the plank layout. They are a bit industrial, and you could budget to hire a floor sander to prep the surface once down. They come with metal end straps which you will need to remove, or cut the ends off.

They will be strong enough to use as a gangplank, but a heavy lump to shift around from one end, though they can be had in different lengths.

[MtB]

Cost-wise I saw new scaffold planks for sale in a huge B&Q the other day. £30 each for 8ft (IIRC) long planks.

[Momac]

8 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Surprisingly the budget spreadsheet already has an entry of £150 for the initial hire of 2 calor bottles.

Empty gas cylinders  may be purchased on eBay . Last week someone had kindly removed a  calor cylinder out of the Trent and left it on the pontoon at Torksey. So that will be free to whoever can make use of it.

 

 

2 hours ago, MtB said:

Cost-wise I saw new scaffold planks for sale in a huge B&Q the other day. £30 each for 8ft (IIRC) long planks.

£20 in Homebase.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

57 minutes ago, Momac said:

Empty gas cylinders  may be purchased on eBay . Last week someone had kindly removed a  calor cylinder out of the Trent and left it on the pontoon at Torksey. So that will be free to whoever can make use of it.

 

 

£20 in Homebase.

 

 

 

4" x 8" x 9 feet Railway sleepers (new) can be had on ebay for £18

 

You will lose a lot of headroom with 38mm boards.

Edited July 18 by Alan de Enfield

[system 4-50]

38mm is a bit thick,  mm of vertical height are precious.

Did you say 19Kg bottles?  I can't be bothered to go back and check.  I'm not sure how common 19s are, canalside, compared with the ubiquitous 13s, perhaps somebody could comment?  And then you could go really far out with 47s !!!!  They would look like missiles!

[ditchcrawler]

9 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

Yes to the K&A, the winter street market culture of Bath and Devizes appeals and so does a summer on the upper reaches of the Thames near Lechlade. I was looking at the price banding of CRT winter moorings, the choice stretches of the K&A near Dunas, Bath and Devizes are highly banded, other people must have the same idea as me. In fact as I browsed the banding of winter moorings across England I had a thought of extracting a list of the Band 5 plus parts of the system to create a must-see touring map of the UK.

Why take a winter mooring, you stilll need to move for water and fuel unless you take a marina berth. Why not moor for 14 days, move and fill with water then stop for another 14 days, thats a month and cost you nothing.

[Peanut]

With 38mm boards, you don't need the 25mm ply boards, so the loss in height is only 13mm ~ ½ inch.  If this is a new build and headroom is a problem, then it shouldn't be too difficult to sort it with the builder. But for ½ inch? I suppose it depends on how tall you are, and the shell you go with. Use thinner battens on the floors?

 

If it is a sailaway with a ply floor already fitted, then you need to speak to the builder, about the headroom, but then scaffold boards would be a complete overkill, and would benefit from a change of plan.

Edited July 18 by Peanut
sailaway

[David Mack]

9 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

The floor will be scaffold planks and I hope in the £1500 budget for those there will be one leftover spare. They are 38mm thick so possibly over spec'ed and over weight for a shore plank?

In use your gang plank will span 6-8 feet from boat to shore. On a proper scaffold, the boards would be supported every 3 feet or so. Just saying...

[Gybe Ho]

On 18/07/2024 at 06:16, MtB said:

Cost-wise I saw new scaffold planks for sale in a huge B&Q the other day. £30 each for 8ft (IIRC) long planks.

 Ooo no, not at that price given the quantity involved. £30 for 8ft would equate to £3000+ for a whole shell fitout.

 

These planks are 9" or 225mm wide, so call it 10 across with some wastage. Building trade scaffold boards are 13ft or 3.9m long. I need a hundred full length boards or more at 8ft.

 

I will be buying in bulk from a major trade supplier in Immingham. £15 per 13ft board. That is still £1500. I have not costed out the more typical floor make up of ply finished with Amtico or other domestic laminates.

 

 

On 18/07/2024 at 09:50, ditchcrawler said:

Why take a winter mooring, you stilll need to move for water and fuel unless you take a marina berth. Why not moor for 14 days, move and fill with water then stop for another 14 days, thats a month and cost you nothing.

 

I am asking the same question, does anyone know the percentage take-up of CRT winter mooring capacity?  Rural winter moorings seem like a particularly bad deal. The majority of these moorings are in the £150 to £250 per month price bracket i.e. over 50% of the going marina rate but unserviced. As you say the need to move negates the benefit.

 

If someone has regular paid employment in Bath, Bristol or catches a London train for work, then I get the attraction of a high-band winter mooring. Otherwise? If £50 per month for a settled winter location, then maybe.

On 18/07/2024 at 09:45, system 4-50 said:

Did you say 19Kg bottles?

 

 

Nope. I budgeted for 13kgs.

 

I am still debating lithium bank capacity, at 9.5kWh I would consider a 240v oven. If I was specifying my kitchen in a house I would want a gas hob and electric oven. I think that is just obtainable now in a new build narrowboat though I need to calculate the monthly kWh hit during winter when in a solar deficit.

[Gybe Ho]

On 18/07/2024 at 10:09, Peanut said:

With 38mm boards, you don't need the 25mm ply boards, so the loss in height is only 13mm ~ ½ inch.  If this is a new build and headroom is a problem, then it shouldn't be too difficult to sort it with the builder. But for ½ inch? I suppose it depends on how tall you are, and the shell you go with. Use thinner battens on the floors?

 

If it is a sailaway with a ply floor already fitted, then you need to speak to the builder, about the headroom, but then scaffold boards would be a complete overkill, and would benefit from a change of plan.

 

For multiple reasons I am now erring towards a non sailaway shell. Looking at the floor makeup it would be difficult to loose 13mm. Between the ribs there would be 100mm of concrete brickettes and 10mm of PIR insulation plus an air gap. Good practice requires resting the bricks on small plastic spacers for more air circulation so we are looking at about 122 plus 38mm. I am 6ft tall.

 

Thinner timber floor bearers? Maybe, need to allow for long timber floor fixing screws with the counter dual threads that pull both timbers together.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 Ooo no, not at that price given the quantity involved. £30 for 8ft would equate to £3000+ for a whole shell fitout.

 

These planks are 9" or 225mm wide, so call it 10 across with some wastage. Building trade scaffold boards are 13ft or 3.9m long. I need a hundred full length boards or more at 8ft.

 

I will be buying in bulk from a major trade supplier in Immingham. £15 per 13ft board. That is still £1500. I have not costed out the more typical floor make up of ply finished with Amtico or other domestic laminates.

 

 

 

I am asking the same question, does anyone know the percentage take-up of CRT winter mooring capacity?  Rural winter moorings seem like a particularly bad deal. The majority of these moorings are in the £150 to £250 per month price bracket i.e. over 50% of the going marina rate but unserviced. As you say the need to move negates the benefit.

 

If someone has regular paid employment in Bath, Bristol or catches a London train for work, then I get the attraction of a high-band winter mooring. Otherwise? If £50 per month for a settled winter location, then maybe.

 

Nope. I budgeted for 13kgs.

 

I am still debating lithium bank capacity, at 9.5kWh I would consider a 240v oven. If I was specifying my kitchen in a house I would want a gas hob and electric oven. I think that is just obtainable now in a new build narrowboat though I need to calculate the monthly kWh hit during winter when in a solar deficit.

 

Electric cooking on a boat -- oven and/or hob -- is expensive to provide the power for (and recharge the batteries), unless you're doing this anyway for a hybrid/electric boat. In which case you might as well go all-electric (which is what I did) and get rid of the gas installation, which not only needs bottles but also costs to install, needs extra ventilation and safety devices, and causes more condensation when cooking.

 

IMHO a gas hob and electric oven is the worst of both worlds, you need both the high power electrics/recharging and gas bottles/installation.

[Gybe Ho]

On 18/07/2024 at 05:35, Peanut said:

They are a bit industrial, and you could budget to hire a floor sander to prep the surface once down.

 

 

This is the interior decor style I am looking for. Not my idea, the young narrowboating YouTubers are streets ahead if not decades ahead of the design curve compared to the "custom" boat builder who exhibit at Crick.

 

Scaffoldboard Prep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDAN_U0ikw&t=65s

 

Floor Installed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiEx-73m0dQ&t=245s

 

[LadyG]

10 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

This is the interior decor style I am looking for. Not my idea, the young narrowboating YouTubers are streets ahead if not decades ahead of the design curve compared to the "custom" boat builder who exhibit at Crick.

 

Scaffoldboard Prep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDAN_U0ikw&t=65s

 

Floor Installed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiEx-73m0dQ&t=245s

 

Companies who exhibit at Crick know their customer base, (craftsman built interiors, not scaffolding boards).

Folks who post on YouTube about fitting out are probably one off owner fit out, and if they decide to have a "industrial look" ie cheapo, they will struggle to sell the boat when the novelty wears off. DAMHIK.

Owner fitouts will never look as good as those done by a top professional.

Edited July 19 by LadyG

[Gybe Ho]

49 minutes ago, IanD said:

IMHO a gas hob and electric oven is the worst of both worlds, you need both the high power electrics/recharging and gas bottles/installation.

 

 

A greater technical challenge granted but best for serious cooking.

 

I had overlooked gas hob related condensation when planning the fitout. However my dream narrow boat would incorporate an Oakham style oversized 3' x 2' glazed roof panel over the kitchen. This would be a lifting panel that could be cracked open when cooking.

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

A greater technical challenge granted but best for serious cooking.

 

I had overlooked gas hob related condensation when planning the fitout. However my dream narrow boat would incorporate an Oakham style oversized 3' x 2' glazed roof panel over the kitchen. This would be a lifting panel that could be cracked open when cooking.

 

I was always a firm supporter of gas hobs until I got an induction one, and many chefs have found the same... 😉 

 

The one thing they're not so good at is cooking with a wok, a 6kW gas wok burner takes some beating -- yes you can get induction wok burners, but mostly 3kW and costing more than two grand... 😞

 

Having said that, you can get the same power with a flat-bottomed wok on a conventional induction hob, but you still get a smaller "hot area" than a big gas burner...

Edited July 19 by IanD

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

These planks are 9" or 225mm wide, so call it 10 across with some wastage. Building trade scaffold boards are 13ft or 3.9m long. I need a hundred full length boards or more at 8ft.

 

I will be buying in bulk from a major trade supplier in Immingham. £15 per 13ft board. That is still £1500. I have not costed out the more typical floor make up of ply finished with Amtico or other domestic laminates

If you just want a wide-boarded floor why not buy planed timber at 200mm or 225mm x 25mm, and save yourself all the time and effort of sanding down rough scaffold boards?

My local timber yard has these in medium quality redwood, but if you are willing to accept narrower boards and whitewood the cost comes down, and the boards are already t&g'd.

[Gybe Ho]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Companies who exhibit at Crick know their customer base, (craftsman built interiors, not scaffolding boards).

Folks who post on YouTube about fitting out are probably one off owner fit out, and if they decide to have a "industrial look" ie cheapo, they will struggle to sell the boat when the novelty wears off. DAMHIK.

Owner fitouts will never look as good as those done by a top professional.

 

I predict those Crick companies are about to have a rude awakening if they fail to comprehend what a new generation of narrowboat owners want. The first thing every narrowboating YouTuber under 50 does, when acquiring a new boat, is point out the wall to wall, floor to ceiling varnished wood look.

 

Oakhams will survive but the others are in danger. I suspect the others actually know where the market is heading because they are in touch with the widebeam market where interior finish is defined by the expectations of young London cosmo people. They will already be planning their decor switch, by Crick 2028 the boat of the show will go to a narrowboat looking similar to the Danni and Joe example I linked to just above.

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

I was always a firm supporter of gas hobs until I got an induction one, and many chefs have found the same... 😉 

 

 

I have heard this claim many times, I guess I should investigate before finalizing plans. Does the switch to induction require wholescale replacement of pans?

 

One factor I have not mentioned is the appeal of redundancy as a future continuous cruiser. Life aboard would become primitive if the 240v invertor failed on an all electric kitchen narrowboat.

 

This is s difficult decision. One thing I do not share with the broader narrowboat community is a fear of gas. It must be a BSS thing that sailors are not subject to.

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I predict those Crick companies are about to have a rude awakening if they fail to comprehend what a new generation of narrowboat owners want. The first thing every narrowboating YouTuber under 50 does, when acquiring a new boat, is point out the wall to wall, floor to ceiling varnished wood look.

 

Oakhams will survive but the others are in danger. I suspect the others actually know where the market is heading because they are in touch with the widebeam market where interior finish is defined by the expectations of young London cosmo people. They will already be planning their decor switch, by Crick 2028 the boat of the show will go to a narrowboat looking similar to the Danni and Joe example I linked to just above.

 

I have heard this claim many times, I guess I should investigate before finalizing plans. Does the switch to induction require wholescale replacement of pans?

 

One factor I have not mentioned is the appeal of redundancy as a future continuous cruiser. Life aboard would become primitive if the 240v invertor failed on an all electric kitchen narrowboat.

 

This is s difficult decision. One thing I do not share with the broader narrowboat community is a fear of gas. It must be a BSS thing that sailors are not subject to.

 

Most pans work fine with induction hobs, but not all.

 

Redundancy is an argument for having gas, especially if you don't have an onboard generator (I do) which can provide 230Vac even if the inverter fails (with some rewiring).

 

I don't think going electric for cooking -- hob or oven or even kettle -- makes sense on a diesel-powered boat, which is why most people don't do it and stick to gas.

 

It does make sense on a hybrid/electric boat where you already have a huge battery bank with a lot of electrical power (big inverter) and a generator and lots of solar, because these are all needed anyway for propulsion.

 

But this is an expensive option today (and in the near future with no charging bollards), you've got to be willing to pay a lot for the silent cruising benefits, and most people aren't (or can't).

Edited July 19 by IanD

[LadyG]

49 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I predict those Crick companies are about to have a rude awakening if they fail to comprehend what a new generation of narrowboat owners want. The first thing every narrowboating YouTuber under 50 does, when acquiring a new boat, is point out the wall to wall, floor to ceiling varnished wood look.

 

Oakhams will survive but the others are in danger. I suspect the others actually know where the market is heading because they are in touch with the widebeam market where interior finish is defined by the expectations of young London cosmo people. They will already be planning their decor switch, by Crick 2028 the boat of the show will go to a narrowboat looking similar to the Danni and Joe example I linked to just above.

 

I have heard this claim many times, I guess I should investigate before finalizing plans. Does the switch to induction require wholescale replacement of pans?

 

One factor I have not mentioned is the appeal of redundancy as a future continuous cruiser. Life aboard would become primitive if the 240v invertor failed on an all electric kitchen narrowboat.

 

This is s difficult decision. One thing I do not share with the broader narrowboat community is a fear of gas. It must be a BSS thing that sailors are not subject to.

The youtubers are buying old boats and the quickest way to freshen up forty year old interiors is with a tin of white paint. These guys are not buying new boats, their prime motivation is cheap housing not boating.

 

Unless you cannot smell gas there is no reason to avoid it on a NB. The cookers have flame failure devices.

On a yacht there will be a gimballed stove and a cut off tap behind the stove, in fact one can often easily turn off gas in the locker.

I never use my oven, except in dead of winter, as it barely heats a pizza. Instead I use a Durch oven on the hob, and if I had Lifepo batteries I'd probably have a small air fryer and a small electric kettle. Cooking on board, for me it's not a big thing. 

Obviously if I was buying a new boat, II'd have these upgrades. I'd need about £160K for a good boat, not something most youtubers have.

Edited July 19 by LadyG

[Gybe Ho]

33 minutes ago, IanD said:

Most pans work fine with induction hobs, but not all.

 

 

Am I getting confused with induction and another cooking option where the energy transfer is via something fitted into the pan base?

 

33 minutes ago, IanD said:

Redundancy is an argument for having gas, especially if you don't have an onboard generator (I do) which can provide 230Vac even if the inverter fails (with some rewiring).

 

 

I am still sitting on the diesel serial-hybrid fence hence no generator decision yet. I think Travel Packs are now technically eclipsed by large lithium banks.

 

The market does not seem to offer a sweet 6kVA 3 cylinder generator that will purr in its foredeck hutch.

 

My reference design is a Mothership serial hybrid. This can generate 10kVA under a tugdeck up forward but requires fat cables to deliver the power at 48 volts. At my present stage of comprehending serial hybrid design I do not understand why that power cannot be delivered aft at 240v and fed into the shore inlet circuit via a double pole 240v switch.

Edited July 19 by Gybe Ho

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Am I getting confused with induction and another cooking option where the energy transfer is via something fitted into the pan base?

 

 

I am still sitting on the diesel serial-hybrid fence hence no generator decision yet. I think Travel Packs are now technically eclipsed by large lithium banks.

 

The market does not seem to offer a sweet 6kVA 3 cylinder generator that will purr in its foredeck hutch.

 

My reference design is a Mothership serial hybrid. This can generate 10kVA under a tugdeck up forward but requires fat cables to deliver the power at 48 volts. At my present stage of comprehending serial hybrid design I do not understand why that power cannot be delivered aft at 250v and fed into the shore inlet circuit via a double pole 240v switch.

No, you do need a suitable pan base, but most reasonably modern pans are fine, they're designed to be induction-hob compatible -- which are not exactly a new invention.

 

Most hybrids (including mine) use a 230Vac generator connected to one input of a Victron Quattro with the shoreline connected to the other, then normal thickness mains cables can be used for the connection even if the generator is in the bows. This allows the Quattro (controlled by the BMS) to deal with all switchover/control/charging functions, and gives a backup 230Vac source in the rare case that the Quattro inverter fails.

 

A nominally 6kVA generator really isn't big enough by the time you consider system losses, actual continuous generator capacity, temperature heatsoak, required charging rates, and wanting to keep running times down. I'd say you need 9-10kVA depending on the generator spec, and a Quattro 48/10000 (8kW continuous output, 7kW battery charging if you can keep it cool enough).

 

Whether this goes in the bow or stern is a matter of choice, both have advantages. You need to think how you're going to heat the boat and hot water, if you have a diesel boiler this (and a dual-coil calorifier, and the fuel tank) all need to be next to the generator (and silencers, and skin tank...) at one end or the other. My boat has everything including batteries (except BT) at the stern, others split them between bow and stern -- both work, like everything to do with boats there are pros and cons both ways.

 

I'm not saying that hybrids are perfect or suitable for everyone, and they are more expensive -- but do offer some significant advantages in return if they meet your requirements. They'd be much more attractive in future if there were network-wide charging bollards, but unlike EVs there's no thought-through plan to make this happen any time soon... 😞 

Edited July 19 by IanD

[TheBiscuits]

3 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

Does the switch to induction require wholescale replacement of pans?

 

As a rough rule of thumb, if a magnet sticks to the bottom of the pan it will work.

 

It's not the whole tale, but it's a very quick and easy check on your existing pans.

[ditchcrawler]

On 18/07/2024 at 08:38, Momac said:

Empty gas cylinders  may be purchased on eBay . Last week someone had kindly removed a  calor cylinder out of the Trent and left it on the pontoon at Torksey. So that will be free to whoever can make use of it.

 

 

£20 in Homebase.