Tankage for a month of splendid isolation.

[Gybe Ho]

33 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Coming at it from another angle, I have a 45' cruiser stern and am a liveaboard. I find it much better than a trad (stayed on one for a few weeks whilst mine was being blacked/welded) as you can very easily enter/exit either end of the boat without having to clamber over an engine box and through two doorways and open a hatch. Pain in the butt with a backpack on. Back door with ex

...

 

Coming from a sailing background a rear cockpit seems normal and I think this configuration wins hands-down for towpath living.

 

I also get the winter helming exposure counter argument. I initially dismissed this thinking that after hundreds of solo offshore sailing miles I could handle the exposure, particularly since I have all the clothing. In reality I might be underestimating the challenge because sailing yachts have fixed sprayhoods, my last yacht had an autohelm and gyro compass that could be engaged with a button click. When offshore 90% of helming was done by the auto pilot. Another difference is that there is no harm in popping down below to cook a meal when solo and the horizon is clear. In fact on longer passages e.g. Cornwall to Ireland I would snooze at night for 15 minutes with two kitchen timers set. 15 seconds of helming inattention on the cut could be costly.

[cheesegas]

10 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

I also get the winter helming exposure counter argument. 

I'm not doubting that it's warmer with your bottom half inside, but even with the temps around freezing and dressed appropriately I've never felt cold. It's definitely a compromise but for ease of access and the workspace outside, in my opinion and for my uses, a cruiser stern suits better. After a week of clambering over an engine box, opening the slide or just the rear doors, crawling back, reaching to get my backpack, I'd had enough and moved the boat to somewhere I could get in the front doors.

[LadyG]

I have full offshore Hello Hanson kit, worn once on the NB I dont move if its cold, wet and windy, it's not easy in locks with all the winter kit plus lifejacket so I wait for better weather. 

My legs get pretty stiff after an hour, so I try to keep to short cruises. Maybe time for a  hot cocoa on a lock landing if I have the opportunity, I have stopped on the A and C for a quick pee, I just put the boat on the lee side against the piling.

Edited July 15 by LadyG

[Gybe Ho]

48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We took a visitors mooring for a few days in Plymouth (at the Mayflower marina) for "The Cat", it was £30 a night but for that you got all the electric you could eat, potable water and your own bathroom, complete with bath, shower & sink. Very good restauant on site, mechanics and sailmakers on site -

...

 

The anchorage opposite at Barn Pool next to the Mt Edgecombe ferry is nice. You are right about the marine services clustered around the marina. On one solo trip from Portsmouth to Cornwall the boom detached from the mast at 1am mid Channel, once I had picked up a mobile signal off Devon I sent a txt to Her Ladyship and asked her to Google for Eurospars in the Westcountry, she got back and said divert to the Mayflower Marina in Plymouth.

 

If I start my DIY narrowboat fitout I want to select the yard/marina carefully because the right local culture helps. Debdale has a community of newbuild fitout projects on their hardstanding. More hardcore is the yard next door to Sour Valley boatbuilders. Oundle has potential to become Hyrbrid DIY central nextdoor to Mothership. Mr. Mothership is now courting the hybrid conversion market.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I am still adjusting to the economics of narrowboating. In the UK, coastal marina operators run special winter discounts to use capacity vacated by yachts that are lifted ashore for the winter.  This tradition of a winter liftout is in decline due in part to traditional boatyards being converted to cosmopolitan waterside apartments. Even so five winter months are often priced equivalent to 2 summer months.

 

Its not the cost, Narrowboats don't lift out for the winter and lots of berth holders dont go cruising in the winter so there are no more vacancies than they are in summer. A number of CC'ers like to hole up in the winter and they will be booking their slots around September, some will be staying 4 months just like winter on line moorings. 

But that could all change by the time you have bought a hull and fitted your boat out

59 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

I'm not doubting that it's warmer with your bottom half inside, but even with the temps around freezing and dressed appropriately I've never felt cold. It's definitely a compromise but for ease of access and the workspace outside, in my opinion and for my uses, a cruiser stern suits better. After a week of clambering over an engine box, opening the slide or just the rear doors, crawling back, reaching to get my backpack, I'd had enough and moved the boat to somewhere I could get in the front doors.

Yes its a silly place to put an engine

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its not the cost, Narrowboats don't lift out for the winter and lots of berth holders dont go cruising in the winter so there are no more vacancies than they are in summer. A number of CC'ers like to hole up in the winter and they will be booking their slots around September, some will be staying 4 months just like winter on line moorings. 

But that could all change by the time you have bought a hull and fitted your boat out

 

And, under the new licence rules , even if they spend 5 months in a marina they will still have to pay the premium (add on £ss) for having a CC licence

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Yes its a silly place to put an engine

 

Indeed. The whole trad stern thing makes a lot more sense if you don't have an "engine box". Put the engine in the engine room, forward of the back cabin. The other BIG advantage of this is you shut the engine room doors and get to cruise without the racket of a diesel engine roaring away immediately under your feet. 

 

 

Oh and you mend yer bike on the tug deck at the front! 

 

 

[cheesegas]

Just now, MtB said:

Indeed. The whole trad stern thing makes a lot more sense if you don't have an "engine box". Put the engine in the engine room, forward of the back cabin. The other BIG advantage of this is you shut the engine room doors and get to cruise without the racket of a diesel engine roaring away immediately under your feet. 

 

Oh and you mend yer bike on the tug deck at the front! 

You don't get much living space left from 45' once you take away the space for a tug deck, back cabin that's only fit for storage rather than living and 5' of  engine room. 😁 I agree that it's more realistic for a 57'-60' boat to have a back cabin, tug deck and engine room but for my uses, a cruiser is the best compromise.

 

Not everyone has the same uses or priorities - I'm just putting forward my opinion as a lot of people here seem to recommend a clear roof / trad stern combination when in fact there's other options which can work better depending on boat length and uses. I certainly wouldn't trade my roof box of storage and solar for being able to walk on the roof!

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

You don't get much living space left from 45' once you take away the space for a tug deck, back cabin that's only fit for storage rather than living and 5' of  engine room. 😁 I agree that it's more realistic for a 57'-60' boat to have a back cabin, tug deck and engine room but for my uses, a cruiser is the best compromise

 

I was posting for the benefit of the OP planning his 60ft boat, not you!

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

In the UK, coastal marina operators run special winter discounts to use capacity vacated by yachts that are lifted ashore for the winter.

Narrow boats aren't lifted out for the winter. In summer, when boats are in use and away from the marina their berths can be used as short term moorings for visiting craft. In winter the permanent berthholders are back and there are no (or fewer) temporary moorings available.

[cheesegas]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

I was posting for the benefit of the OP planning his 60ft boat, not you!

Apologies, I missed the boat size in the OPs post, didn’t realise he’d decided on a length! For any size boat though, an engine room and tug deck eat into valuable living space. It’s all about compromise though, OP may be willing to sacrifice living space for other reasons, theres no correct boat for every person. 

[MtB]

 

And of course a properly fitted out back cabin is useful for far more than storing junk. It has a bed, a table, a stove by your feet when cruising in cold weather, seating and almost everything the trad boatman needed in a living space.

[lampini]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And of course a properly fitted out back cabin is useful for far more than storing junk. It has a bed, a table, a stove by your feet when cruising in cold weather, seating and almost everything the trad boatman needed in a living space.

That's the only thing I would change about our 57ft trad - I want an engine room and a back cabin! Our engine is a bugger to access, and we do have need of an office + music space and occasional visitor accommodation - trad back cabin and engine room would be ideal, also for clothes drying and tool storage. Especially with a lovely boatman stove with an oven.. a girl can dream! 

[Ken X]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And of course a properly fitted out back cabin is useful for far more than storing junk. It has a bed, a table, a stove by your feet when cruising in cold weather, seating and almost everything the trad boatman needed in a living space.

Indeed, this is us tucked up for the night after a days winter boating. Everything to hand and very warm when winter boating.

[ditchcrawler]

17 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Apologies, I missed the boat size in the OPs post, didn’t realise he’d decided on a length! For any size boat though, an engine room and tug deck eat into valuable living space. It’s all about compromise though, OP may be willing to sacrifice living space for other reasons, theres no correct boat for every person. 

You should see the crap  stuff in my engine room, its also good for drying things. We sleep in the BMC

[dmr]

21 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Indeed. The whole trad stern thing makes a lot more sense if you don't have an "engine box". Put the engine in the engine room, forward of the back cabin. The other BIG advantage of this is you shut the engine room doors and get to cruise without the racket of a diesel engine roaring away immediately under your feet. 

 

 

Oh and you mend yer bike on the tug deck at the front! 

 

 

 

Though you do have noise of an exhaust stack right in front of you.

I was thinking about this stuff the other day, as  I went through Harecastle. For the low bit I sort of rest by elbows on, and lean on the slide and duck down with the slide giving a nice reference to how low I have ducked, it must all be so much more uncomfotable standing out on a cruiser stern.

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Though you do have noise of an exhaust stack right in front of you.

I was thinking about this stuff the other day, as  I went through Harecastle. For the low bit I sort of rest by elbows on, and lean on the slide and duck down with the slide giving a nice reference to how low I have ducked, it must all be so much more uncomfotable standing out on a cruiser stern.

 

I have only steered a boat with a big cruiser stern twice and both occasions were miserable experiences compared to my own trad stern boat with a proper back cabin.

 

(And engine room, obviously!)

 

 

[cheesegas]

11 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Though you do have noise of an exhaust stack right in front of you.

Two of the working trip boats in Little Venice/Camden have trad engines and an exhaust stack…which has been re routed to a side exit, presumably because the steerer didn’t appreciate getting diesel exhaust in the face for hours on end, especially through Angel Tunnel. One of the remaining exhaust stacked boats has a steerer who wears a hefty filtration mask. 

[dmr]

11 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Two of the working trip boats in Little Venice/Camden have trad engines and an exhaust stack…which has been re routed to a side exit, presumably because the steerer didn’t appreciate getting diesel exhaust in the face for hours on end, especially through Angel Tunnel. One of the remaining exhaust stacked boats has a steerer who wears a hefty filtration mask. 

 

A lot of boaters do see a roof mounted exhaust stack as a big issue, but the exhaust fumes just go straight upwards safely out of the way. It needs a good bit of wind to get any going to the steerers face. With a conventional low down exhaust when sitting in a lock the exhaust fumes rise up right past the steerer, and with old worn engines I have seen steerers standing in a cloud of blue smoke.

I do accept that roof mounted exhausts can be a bit difficult in some tunnels where the "titch pipe" has to be used , especially Harecastle going Northwards, though you get all the fumes from the boats in front anyway.

We used to have a "tractor top" on our exhaust stack and this did send fumes towards us, I now take it off at the start of each day and put it back on at the end.

[Gybe Ho]

50 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

I'm not doubting that it's warmer with your bottom half inside, but even with the temps around freezing and dressed appropriately I've never felt cold. It's definitely a compromise but for ease of access and the workspace outside, in my opinion and for my uses, a cruiser stern suits better. After a week of clambering over an engine box, opening the slide or just the rear doors, crawling back, reaching to get my backpack, I'd had enough and moved the boat to somewhere I could get in the front doors.

 

I agree with all this, was just trying to understand the counter argument. Two centuries of narrowboat builders must have got something right about helming position.

 

I cannot see me being swayed away from a cruiser stern at this stage because other dependent design decisions would unravel. I will ask my shell builder to shorten the forward well deck to 3.5ft and fit a full width tug deck at gunwale height, this will be a provision for a future genset install which in turn keeps the serial hybrid option open for me. With the Foredeck Well eliminated from the design I can then fit a full size double bed right up front. That in turn allows me to ask the shell builder to cant the first 4ft for forward cabin sides over to match the cratch triangle profile. The 4ft of leaning cabin top will be close to the optimum mid winter high-tilt solar angle for fitting an extra 300w of solar each side. A 5ft wide bedframe should accommodate a 700 litre watertank below which is about right for 2 to 3 weeks off grid living given the feedback in this thread.

 

So many design decisions are interdependent in a narrow boat!

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Coming from a sailing background a rear cockpit seems normal and I think this configuration wins hands-down for towpath living.

 

 

There is a theory that the cruiser stern was invented, or at least popularised in hire boats, to replicate the experience of a sailing boat, which is why its called a cruiser stern. So as a lumpy water person you may well feel that thats the way to go. They are very popular with hire boaters so that the whole family and friends can gather round the steerer and share the experience/get in the way. For a single handed liveaboard the trad stern does have a lot of advantages.

[cheesegas]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

With a conventional low down exhaust when sitting in a lock the exhaust fumes rise up right past the steerer, and with old worn engines I have seen steerers standing in a cloud of blue smoke.

I agree with this, but as my 34 year old Isuzu doesn't smoke at all (well, ok a little puff when it starts up on a cold day!) I personally haven't seen it to be a problem. I've seen other boats though with their own personal fog down in the lock! In summer, I tend to stop the engine in locks Thames style, especially if I know it's a slow one, no point idling away and burning diesel.

 

Just now, Gybe Ho said:

I agree with all this, was just trying to understand the counter argument. Two centuries of narrowboat builders must have got something right about helming position.

The primary use of a narrowboat is different from person to person though, and it's certainly quite different from 200 years ago. Nowadays some people live aboard 24/7 off grid, some live aboard on shore power, some use it for short holidays in summer, others holiday for longer year round and so on.

 

However, back then, they would have wanted to maximise space to carry goods at the expense of living space and comfort as that's what paid the bills. There also wouldn't have been any social advantage to having a cruiser stern as the boat's a working tool, not a thing to live on and to use for leisure. It makes sense that the design changes with the changing use over the years as priorities have changed. Nowadays for a liveaboard, you want to maximise comfort with the possibility of leisure and social things; I really like cruising along with a couple of friends, or usually just my partner out back, able to get in and out of the boat without squidging past the steerer.

 

Of course, some people like the history and like to have a boat similar to working boats and that's fine too. Again - different priorities.

[Gybe Ho]

55 minutes ago, lampini said:

That's the only thing I would change about our 57ft trad - I want an engine room and a back cabin! Our engine is a bugger to access, and we do have need of an office + music space and occasional visitor accommodation - trad back cabin and engine room would be ideal, also for clothes drying and tool storage. Especially with a lovely boatman stove with an oven.. a girl can dream! 

 

I wonder if the trad boatmans cabin will make a comeback given the small volume of electric motors? With my thoughts about putting a generator under a tugdeck up foreward that leaves much wasted space under the cruiser deck. 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

I will ask my shell builder to shorten the forward well deck to 3.5ft

 

 

Where will your gas bottles be stored ?

Many are fitted in the bow in front of the well-deck. and 'traditionally' the front of the well deck incorporates the water tank to keep it as low as possible (CofG) We had a 1000 litre water tank built into our bow with the bow and the base plate forming 3 'sides' of the tank.

 

You will also need to counter balance the weight of your Poo-Tank and fuel tank.

4 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

...................leaves much wasted space under the cruiser deck.

 

 

No space is wasted storage is always at a premium.

Lazarette ?

(Storage for the life raft ?)

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

I agree with this, but as my 34 year old Isuzu doesn't smoke at all (well, ok a little puff when it starts up on a cold day!) I personally haven't seen it to be a problem. I've seen other boats though with their own personal fog down in the lock! In summer, I tend to stop the engine in locks Thames style, especially if I know it's a slow one, no point idling away and burning diesel.

 

 

 

But its the stuff you can't see, the NOx and the very small particulates, that are likely to damage you 😀. A few owners of smokey vintage engines do make themselves feel better by saying "if you can see the smoke it probably won't hurt you"

 

I'm part of that minority that believe a boat should have a back cabin, an engine room and an exhaust stack, but every year, and this year in particular, I realise it is a reducing minority.  Maybe things will change and next year we might see a "Bickerstaffe Trad" 😀😀😀

 

If you are single handing then turning the engine off in locks makes a lot of sense.