Southern Stratford closed ‘For weeks’

[Tim Lewis]

Not good:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notices/28038-lock-28-lowsonford-south-stratford-canal

[Nightwatch]

We are heading that way. We are a long way off but it seems weeks could mean months. Perhaps a change of plan and route required.

[Ken X]

Team X are watching this stoppage with interest.  We are hiring out of Wootton Wawen on 22nd June, coming back in July.  We may be going south and returning the same way which is not what we planned but hey-ho.  Might nip down the Gloucester & Sharpness instead for a look see.

 

A growing number of stoppages are affecting our hire plans each year.  We are increasingly minded to stick to rivers and other authority waters as the reliability of C&RT water is becoming a problem when planning.  Looks like the Wey, Thames and possibly a bit of K & A next year.  Winter cruising is even more challenging to arrange.

[zenataomm]

22 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

Not good:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notices/28038-lock-28-lowsonford-south-stratford-canal

So Waterways have 1569 locks to look after and two dedicated workshops that manufacture lock gates.

 

And the above link details ...
"The team have now assessed the damage and, unfortunately, this isn’t going to be a quick fix. A new gate will need to be manufactured. This could take a number of weeks, as workshops will need to procure materials and make the gate. The gate will then need to be transported to site and fitted, which could also take a few weeks."

 

Yes. of course a gate will need manufacturing, that's why you have two workshops dedicated to doing just that.

You own up to not carrying enough materials to make one gate!  Why?
Why will it take a few weeks to transport the finished gate?  Do you move them by bus?

 

I know all about tight budgets, no money etc.  And I also know about P155 poor management.
What are your Agreed Service Levels and how does the above stack up against what you're saying?

Everybody else in the world is accountable for their actions and are not permitted to make up their own version as they go along without explanation, so what gives?

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

So Waterways have 1569 locks to look after and two dedicated workshops that manufacture lock gates.

 

And they plan to close one of them if the Bradly restoration  goes ahead 

[agg221]

14 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

So Waterways have 1569 locks to look after and two dedicated workshops that manufacture lock gates.

 

And the above link details ...
"The team have now assessed the damage and, unfortunately, this isn’t going to be a quick fix. A new gate will need to be manufactured. This could take a number of weeks, as workshops will need to procure materials and make the gate. The gate will then need to be transported to site and fitted, which could also take a few weeks."

 

Yes. of course a gate will need manufacturing, that's why you have two workshops dedicated to doing just that.

You own up to not carrying enough materials to make one gate!  Why?
Why will it take a few weeks to transport the finished gate?  Do you move them by bus?

 

I know all about tight budgets, no money etc.  And I also know about P155 poor management.
What are your Agreed Service Levels and how does the above stack up against what you're saying?

Everybody else in the world is accountable for their actions and are not permitted to make up their own version as they go along without explanation, so what gives?

I agree wholeheartedly with this. CRT is responsible for the maintenance of a large historic infrastructure of great complexity. Things failing without warning is not a surprise, however not being prepared to address the issue when they do is poor. Keeping the materials to hand to manufacture a replacement lock gate is pretty basic planning and transportation is not that challenging for an article that is unlikely to weigh more than a couple of tons.

 

I believe the Avon ring has not yet been navigable this year? This could well push that on to 50% closure. I am prepared to accept that exceptional weather events can lead to major issues (see the North Oxford) but this does not fall into that category. It would be nice to think that there will be a review of failures for lessons learned and actual changes in policy as a consequence, but I am not holding my breath.

Alec

[Col_T]

A genuine question - Are all lock gates built to the same design?
If there are variations in design between the gates on different canals then there may be variations in dimensions of materials required? 

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, agg221 said:

I agree wholeheartedly with this. CRT is responsible for the maintenance of a large historic infrastructure of great complexity. Things failing without warning is not a surprise, however not being prepared to address the issue when they do is poor. Keeping the materials to hand to manufacture a replacement lock gate is pretty basic planning and transportation is not that challenging for an article that is unlikely to weigh more than a couple of tons.

 

I believe the Avon ring has not yet been navigable this year? This could well push that on to 50% closure. I am prepared to accept that exceptional weather events can lead to major issues (see the North Oxford) but this does not fall into that category. It would be nice to think that there will be a review of failures for lessons learned and actual changes in policy as a consequence, but I am not holding my breath.

Alec

 

42 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

 as workshops will need to procure materials and make the gate. The gate will then need to be transported to site and fitted, which could also take a few weeks."

 

When you consider they are constantly making gates its hard to swallow. they must have the material for the next set as a minimum 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Col_T said:

A genuine question - Are all lock gates built to the same design?

 

A genuine answer, no! 

 

In fact I'd posit that every single lock gate on those 1,569 locks is different from all the others.

 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

A genuine answer, no! 

 

In fact I'd posit that every single lock gate on those 1,569 locks is different from all the others.

 

 

 

Materials are pretty standard though. Oak, elm, ironwork. Measure the old, make a new, transport, fit. Hard to believe they don't have some seasoned oak around for an emergency gate manufacture.

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Materials are pretty standard though. Oak, elm, ironwork. Measure the old, make a new, transport, fit. Hard to believe they don't have some seasoned oak around for an emergency gate manufacture.

Is it seasoned or green oak?

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Is it seasoned or green oak?

 

CaRT press release seems to think seasoned.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/news/lock-gates-replaced-along-oxford-canal

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Is it seasoned or green oak?

 

 

I too thought it would be green. Or at least, historically I think the gates would have been made from green oak when the joints were cut by hand. 

[David Mack]

I can recall occasions in the past when there was unexpected failure of a lock gate and CRT simply reprioritised their work to fix the immediate problems, sometimes meaning that a planned stoppage for gate replacement elsewhere got deferred. In general there will be planned gate replacements on all canals, so even though the failed gate may not be precisely the same size as any others, they will have material in stock for similar gates which can be diverted for the purpose.

[magpie patrick]

 

 

More likely CRT don't immediately know whether they have the right timber for that particular gate. 

 

They order timber from a yard in Pontrilas, when they place the order they know what gates are going to be built with that batch and it is roughly cut to size for them to finish. This also works on a system approaching "just in time" - they don't have six months worth of gate timber in the yard.

 

I would reckon that if, for example, they'd ordered wood for a pair of bottom gates at Marple (13 foot drop), and then a pair of bottom gates at Bosley (approx 9 foot drop) failed they could switch the timber over, but they can't do it the other way round. 

 

The locks at Lowsonford have single bottom gates, and would need a different timber kit to a mitre pair or a single top gate, and there aren't that many single bottom gates on the system. My guess would be that the  guys at Bradley (who know their stuff) will be in the process of working out whether they have timber on order already that will fit, but until they know this they will issue a standard "timber needs to be ordered" - in any event the ordered timber will go straight to the top of the queue, but the new gates can't leapfrog gates the construction of which has started. 

 

Delivery times - again I guess that's a stock answer as deliver slots for all gates "in process" have already been booked and the next free slot is several weeks off, and they'll have to negotiate that a delivery trip to, say, Huddersfield is now going to go to Lowsonford.

[Tracy D'arth]

There is plenty of steel around to quickly make gates that will last longer than 40 years plus. Why do they continue to ignore the sensible approach and make steel gates instead of time expired timber? It is time that function replaced heritage.

[Rob-M]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

There is plenty of steel around to quickly make gates that will last longer than 40 years plus. Why do they continue to ignore the sensible approach and make steel gates instead of time expired timber? It is time that function replaced heritage.

Try telling English Heritage that.

[Tracy D'arth]

Just now, Rob-M said:

Try telling English Heritage that.

Well someone high up in C&RT ought to as its their problem and their lack of maintenance that is at causing extended closures and additional cost.  I wonder who that should be?

How about introducing a temporary emergency replacement gate in steel to be changed for a wooden one when next available so as to keep the canals open?   Surely heritage could not refuse a temporary solution as to have the canal closed is also against their heritage aims.  No gate, no canal, simples.

[magpie patrick]

16 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

There is plenty of steel around to quickly make gates that will last longer than 40 years plus. Why do they continue to ignore the sensible approach and make steel gates instead of time expired timber? It is time that function replaced heritage.

 

That is true, but leaving heritage considerations aside there is a lot more to it than just life span. Steel transmits much more force back into the lock wall if the gate is hit, which takes it's toll on the structure, and whilst the gate will withstand being hit eventually it will bend and not return to shape. The current cost of steel gates is around twice that of oak (I'm involved in tendering for some on a restoration project) - it will be 25 years before the savings become apparent and in the meantime the cost of gates is doubled, a difficult call on already overstretched budgets. 

 

There is a design for steel gates that got heritage lottery approval on the Monmouth Canal at Ty Coch - pictured. They use square section tubes to mimic the appearance of the large timbers. It's possible that these are the way forward especially if suitable timber becomes more difficult to get hold of

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Fully accepting the difference in steel and wood gates but the Bosley flight is still functioning well with steel gates made in the 1970s as is a lot of the Ashton canal.

I am surprised that steel is so much more expensive than wood, especially large section oak. Steel would of course be much easier to patch and repair and be more recyclable.........................

It would seem that C&RT are using much more steel as repair material onto failed oak gates now.

Edited May 3 by Tracy D'arth

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, magpie patrick said:

 

 

More likely CRT don't immediately know whether they have the right timber for that particular gate. 

 

They order timber from a yard in Pontrilas, when they place the order they know what gates are going to be built with that batch and it is roughly cut to size for them to finish. This also works on a system approaching "just in time" - they don't have six months worth of gate timber in the yard.

 

I would reckon that if, for example, they'd ordered wood for a pair of bottom gates at Marple (13 foot drop), and then a pair of bottom gates at Bosley (approx 9 foot drop) failed they could switch the timber over, but they can't do it the other way round. 

 

The locks at Lowsonford have single bottom gates, and would need a different timber kit to a mitre pair or a single top gate, and there aren't that many single bottom gates on the system. My guess would be that the  guys at Bradley (who know their stuff) will be in the process of working out whether they have timber on order already that will fit, but until they know this they will issue a standard "timber needs to be ordered" - in any event the ordered timber will go straight to the top of the queue, but the new gates can't leapfrog gates the construction of which has started. 

 

Delivery times - again I guess that's a stock answer as deliver slots for all gates "in process" have already been booked and the next free slot is several weeks off, and they'll have to negotiate that a delivery trip to, say, Huddersfield is now going to go to Lowsonford.

That's OK if they can recpricate the offer by sending us some water please. 💦

[zenataomm]

16 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

And they plan to close one of them if the Bradly restoration  goes ahead 

Never mind what they plan, currently they have two.  Plus if they want to close one what is their contingency plan?

[Tim Lewis]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 

 

More likely CRT don't immediately know whether they have the right timber for that particular gate. 

 

They order timber from a yard in Pontrilas, when they place the order they know what gates are going to be built with that batch and it is roughly cut to size for them to finish. This also works on a system approaching "just in time" - they don't have six months worth of gate timber in the yard.

 

I would reckon that if, for example, they'd ordered wood for a pair of bottom gates at Marple (13 foot drop), and then a pair of bottom gates at Bosley (approx 9 foot drop) failed they could switch the timber over, but they can't do it the other way round. 

 

The locks at Lowsonford have single bottom gates, and would need a different timber kit to a mitre pair or a single top gate, and there aren't that many single bottom gates on the system. My guess would be that the  guys at Bradley (who know their stuff) will be in the process of working out whether they have timber on order already that will fit, but until they know this they will issue a standard "timber needs to be ordered" - in any event the ordered timber will go straight to the top of the queue, but the new gates can't leapfrog gates the construction of which has started. 

 

Delivery times - again I guess that's a stock answer as deliver slots for all gates "in process" have already been booked and the next free slot is several weeks off, and they'll have to negotiate that a delivery trip to, say, Huddersfield is now going to go to Lowsonford.

First heard about the stoppage talking to the CRT ‘measuring’ men who were just off the measure the collapsed gate, they said that the replacement gate was going to be made at Stanley Ferry.

 

 

[magpie patrick]

Just now, Tim Lewis said:

First heard about the stoppage talking to the CRT ‘measuring’ men who were just off the measure the collapsed gate, they said that the replacement gate was going to be made at Stanley Ferry.

 

 

 It's unusual to make small gates at Stanley Ferry so that suggests they are trying to speed things up

[Stroudwater1]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 

 

More likely CRT don't immediately know whether they have the right timber for that particular gate. 

 

They order timber from a yard in Pontrilas, when they place the order they know what gates are going to be built with that batch and it is roughly cut to size for them to finish. This also works on a system approaching "just in time" - they don't have six months worth of gate timber in the yard.

 

I would reckon that if, for example, they'd ordered wood for a pair of bottom gates at Marple (13 foot drop), and then a pair of bottom gates at Bosley (approx 9 foot drop) failed they could switch the timber over, but they can't do it the other way round. 

 

The locks at Lowsonford have single bottom gates, and would need a different timber kit to a mitre pair or a single top gate, and there aren't that many single bottom gates on the system. My guess would be that the  guys at Bradley (who know their stuff) will be in the process of working out whether they have timber on order already that will fit, but until they know this they will issue a standard "timber needs to be ordered" - in any event the ordered timber will go straight to the top of the queue, but the new gates can't leapfrog gates the construction of which has started. 

 

Delivery times - again I guess that's a stock answer as deliver slots for all gates "in process" have already been booked and the next free slot is several weeks off, and they'll have to negotiate that a delivery trip to, say, Huddersfield is now going to go to Lowsonford.

I thought there weren’t many but there’s quite a few on the BCN, a number on the South Oxford , Wilmcote and much of the rest of if not all bar the lock onto the Stratford on the North Stratford. 
 

Just in time economics is great till unusual things are needed in a hurry. Not totally sure it works with lock gates - that ought to be an emergency. It’s a wonder that the hire firms don’t start seeking sanctions in some way from CRT. It must put seasoned hirers off greatly.