Boat sunk over Christmas in Manchester

[ditchcrawler]

25 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I got a glimpse of it,

some mention of water tank leaking,

but 🤷‍♀️ as always nothing adds up

That was someone else talking about their boat not the one that sank.

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That was someone else talking about their boat not the one that sank.

The FB quote I posted about the surveyor/water tank was from the unfortunate owner...

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, IanD said:

The FB quote I posted about the surveyor/water tank was from the unfortunate owner...

I see that now but I feel sure there was also the same comment from someone else about their boat. Maybe the watertank was letting in canal water 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I see that now but I feel sure there was also the same comment from someone else about their boat. Maybe the watertank was letting in canal water 

Definitely something fishy, as one FB poster said a leaking water tank might give you a wet bilge or floor but shouldn't sink the boat, after all it's just moving said water from inside the tank (good) to outside the tank (less good). Same with canal water leaking into the tank, it'll pollute the fresh water but all it can do is fill the tank up to external water level.

 

Unless the boat was overplated with engine room vents much too close to water level and the leak moved lots of water/weight from bow to stern, but then the overplating/vents are the real problem not a water leak...

 

A stern gland or hull leak with no bilge pump to keep up with it seems more likely, if this gradually lowered the boat until water flooded in through the vents, possibly with some assistance from the wind tilting the boat. All speculation though, maybe more details will emerge as the argument with the insurers goes on or maybe not...

Edited February 8 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

49 minutes ago, IanD said:

Definitely something fishy, as one FB poster said a leaking water tank might give you a wet bilge or floor but shouldn't sink the boat, after all it's just moving said water from inside the tank (good) to outside the tank (less good). Same with canal water leaking into the tank, it'll pollute the fresh water but all it can do is fill the tank up to external water level.

 

Unless the boat was overplated with engine room vents much too close to water level and the leak moved lots of water/weight from bow to stern, but then the overplating/vents are the real problem not a water leak...

 

A stern gland or hull leak with no bilge pump to keep up with it seems more likely, if this gradually lowered the boat until water flooded in through the vents, possibly with some assistance from the wind tilting the boat. All speculation though, maybe more details will emerge as the argument with the insurers goes on or maybe not...

Some old boats had big front decks below the waterline and a pipe running from the front bulkhead through to the engine bilge. A lot of rain over December sank my boat thirty years ago. The bilge pump failed as usual, or else just flattened the battery while pumping. I'd only left it a couple of weeks. Luckily for me it only sank about a foot before settling on the mud.

[StarUKKiwi]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Already under discussion ...................

 

 

Cheers, I did search for it, must have missed it 

[David Mack]

They had lived in it for a month, then while away over Christmas it sunk. And presumably even if there was some water ingress somewhere during the time they lived aboard, when they left the boat the bilge water hadn't come above floor level, so not that much water in the hull. Even a wet Manchester December doesn't produce enough rain to sink a boat that has its hull openings at BSS-compliant height. So there must be some low hull openings, or perhaps an unsealed weed hatch.

 

And if it turns out that the vendor had undertaken to do some (relevant) repairs, but had actually not done so, then presumably the owners have a case against the vendor for recovery of their losses.

Edited February 8 by David Mack

[ditchcrawler]

There is now a video from RCR raining the boat, The cause was an old unused hull penetration they say, but when they tried to pump it out they said the weed hatch cover was off. 

 

[Cheshire cat]

You beat me to it. Not a lot of ballast either

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

You beat me to it. Not a lot of ballast either

So maybe as the water rose with no ballast and tight lines she healed over putting the penetration underwater? or maybe the corner of the open weed hatch 

[Cheshire cat]

Either is a possibility. It is inferred that the skin fitting was the cause though. I wonder if the surveyor spotted it but nothing was done about it prior to the sale and relocation. That would explain why the insurance company has walked away.

[David Mack]

How does a tarpaulin over the top of the open weedhatch stop water coming in?

What I think they actually did was seal the back doors against the back bulkhead and pump out the cabin area. And as the boat came up water in the engine bay drained out through the weedhatch, and once that was above water level the rest of the water in the engine bay could be pumped out.

[Ken X]

I would assume that the missing weed hatch cover did not help their cause either. This would seem, without full knowledge of this case, to be somewhat negligent and a major cause of the rejected claim.  The missed skin fitting you could argue.  A missing weed hatch cover had to have been removed by persons unknown post purchase.

 

Full disclosure, I was an engineer working for an insurance company.

[David Mack]

If the bulkhead between the engine bay and the cabin is watertight up to approaching gunwale level then the only consequence of water coming in through the weedhatch would be a flooded engine bay and the boat sitting down by the stern due to the loss of buoyancy of the stern section. That could be enough of a problem for the engine, but it wouldn't sink the whole boat. 

[Cheshire cat]

I hired a boat that had a very tired stern gland. We were alerted to this fact when we got back from a lunchtime pub visit to find the floor at the rear of the boat immersed in water. 

 

Our shared boat had a wet bilge. Water ran from the foredeck through the boat in a steel channel and emerged in the engine bilge. One winter the boat was left at a now defunct wharf. I visited to do some work in the bathroom to find the rear carpets under water. The "mechanic" charged with doing winter maintenance hadn't noticed she was sitting low in the water. Mr Nobody had detached the wires from the autofloat. Being a Pat Buckle cheepo build the upstand between the bilge and the back cabin didn't go all the way up to the gunwales and anyway holes had been cut in it for pipework during the fitout. Luckily the winter rainfall wasn't bad enough to take the boat to the bottom.

[pearley]

11 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

I hired a boat that had a very tired stern gland. We were alerted to this fact when we got back from a lunchtime pub visit to find the floor at the rear of the boat immersed in water. 

 

Our shared boat had a wet bilge. Water ran from the foredeck through the boat in a steel channel and emerged in the engine bilge. One winter the boat was left at a now defunct wharf. I visited to do some work in the bathroom to find the rear carpets under water. The "mechanic" charged with doing winter maintenance hadn't noticed she was sitting low in the water. Mr Nobody had detached the wires from the autofloat. Being a Pat Buckle cheepo build the upstand between the bilge and the back cabin didn't go all the way up to the gunwales and anyway holes had been cut in it for pipework during the fitout. Luckily the winter rainfall wasn't bad enough to take the boat to the bottom.

We too had a Pat Buckle share boat with the same arrangement. The nice thing was that the front well deck was lower than normal making it easy to move between the cabin and well deck. Downside, as you said, was the crap drainage. The front drain would regularly block with leaves and the water build-up to the extent that it would come over the door threshold. A front cratch and cover would have sorted it but Ownerships always put the other owners off.

Edited February 15 by pearley

[jonathanA]

I'm not the biggest fan of RCR, but fair play to them and their team on the rescue and putting the video of it up.  

 

the boat seemed to live up to its name when it came up... 

[magnetman]

I wonder how an insurance company would deal with a Boat where someone had decided it was clever to run the water system directly from the mains supply. I know two Boats which were almost sunk by doing this. 

 

Its not uncommon for it to happen on moorings with water supply. Insurance companies must have a policy about how to deal with this behaviour. 

 

 

The geyser who does the maintenance at the mooring said he has seen people have put the hose through a window and presumably attached it to the system on the Boat to bypass the pump and provide better pressure. Probably mainly for showers. 

 

In fact the CRT have had to put warning stickers on the water tap bollards because of the water board becoming concerned about potential issues if a Boat were to sink while connected to the mains water supply. 

 

 

I've always had tanks and pumps as lile a floaty Boat. 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I wonder how an insurance company would deal with a Boat where someone had decided it was clever to run the water system directly from the mains supply. I know two Boats which were almost sunk by doing this. 

 

Its not uncommon for it to happen on moorings with water supply. Insurance companies must have a policy about how to deal with this behaviour. 

 

 

The geyser who does the maintenance at the mooring said he has seen people have put the hose through a window and presumably attached it to the system on the Boat to bypass the pump and provide better pressure. Probably mainly for showers. 

 

In fact the CRT have had to put warning stickers on the water tap bollards because of the water board becoming concerned about potential issues if a Boat were to sink while connected to the mains water supply. 

 

 

I've always had tanks and pumps as lile a floaty Boat. 

 

I know a boat that was set up like this, just plugged the hose onto an adaptor screwed into the tank filler and closed the vent. I did read that one did sink like this on the Thames some years back 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I know a boat that was set up like this, just plugged the hose onto an adaptor screwed into the tank filler and closed the vent. I did read that one did sink like this on the Thames some years back 

 

Water regulations for marinas - Inland.

 

Static craft Static craft, permanently moored house boats and other residential permanently moored craft will be treated by local water undertakers in the same way as any other permanent domestic dwelling. Any permanent water connection to these vessels will need to be authorised by the local water undertaker and the final installation method would be inspected and approved accordingly in line with their respective new connections policies. Under no circumstances can a hose pipe be used as a permanent water connection. 

 

Moving craft with no water storage There are no circumstances in which a hose can be used as a permanent water connection to a mains drinking water standpipe. Mains water delivery systems may be used to fill water bottles and other small storage containers which can then be stored on the boat.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Water regulations for marinas - Inland.

Moving craft with no water storage There are no circumstances in which a hose can be used as a permanent water connection to a mains drinking water standpipe. 

Difficult to achieve unless you have unlimited hose !

[Tacet]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Water regulations for marinas - Inland.

 

Static craft Static craft, permanently moored house boats and other residential permanently moored craft will be treated by local water undertakers in the same way as any other permanent domestic dwelling. Any permanent water connection to these vessels will need to be authorised by the local water undertaker and the final installation method would be inspected and approved accordingly in line with their respective new connections policies. Under no circumstances can a hose pipe be used as a permanent water connection. 

 

Moving craft with no water storage There are no circumstances in which a hose can be used as a permanent water connection to a mains drinking water standpipe. Mains water delivery systems may be used to fill water bottles and other small storage containers which can then be stored on the boat.

Looks to be best practice rather than water regulations

 

https://www.hdcymru.co.uk/content/dam/stw/businesses/plumbers/marine-water-facilities-inland-and-coastal-industry-best-practice-guidance.pdf

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Looks to be best practice rather than water regulations

 

https://www.hdcymru.co.uk/content/dam/stw/businesses/plumbers/marine-water-facilities-inland-and-coastal-industry-best-practice-guidance.pdf

 

 

Indeed it is an extract from that document, but it does say that :

 

Any permanent water connection to these vessels will need to be authorised by the local water undertaker and the final installation method would be inspected and approved accordingly in line with their respective new connections policies. 

[ditchcrawler]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Water regulations for marinas - Inland.

 

Static craft Static craft, permanently moored house boats and other residential permanently moored craft will be treated by local water undertakers in the same way as any other permanent domestic dwelling. Any permanent water connection to these vessels will need to be authorised by the local water undertaker and the final installation method would be inspected and approved accordingly in line with their respective new connections policies. Under no circumstances can a hose pipe be used as a permanent water connection. 

 

Moving craft with no water storage There are no circumstances in which a hose can be used as a permanent water connection to a mains drinking water standpipe. Mains water delivery systems may be used to fill water bottles and other small storage containers which can then be stored on the boat.

I think that was only to be expected, but it doesn't stop people doing it, just like taping up the vent on tap conectore to run a longer hose