Engine rebuild or replacement

[IanD]

1 minute ago, rob96 said:

Thanks for the advice on the skin tank and exhaust. I think I will have a go at doing it myself, hopefully take some expense out of the new engine and fitting prices. everything is identical in terms of placement so my current setup will be fine with the exception of new cooling pipes and welding in some angle iron to support them neatly around the bilge.

I am unable to tell if the existing skin tank (about 0.45m^2) has any baffles in it, not sure if there is a way of checking that without cutting it open?

Will try and get by using up my check plate then to make it and hopefully get by without making any slits.

How many baffles should i be trying to put in? seems to be mixed results when googling.

Also will take the advice on cleaning up the current silencer unless it is no longer any good. How would i judge if it warrants a replacement?

Thanks

You realise @Tony Brooks is talking about *external* cooling pipes not internal? Which means holes through the hull, worrying about damage/corrosion on the pipes... 😞

 

That's why skin tanks are by far the most popular option on steel canal boats... 😉

[Tracy D'arth]

4 baffles are sufficient, two,  3/4 length from each opposite ends of the tank, alternately.

 

How do you intend joining old to new skin tanks?

Edited December 21, 2023 by Tracy D'arth

[Mike Hurley]

 That liquimoly guy on here was trying to sell a brand new Beta for 5k the other day, worth a look?

[Phoenix_V]

Re the suitability of Vetus engines the main problem complained about on here over the years is the gearbox (and drive plate) not the engine at all which is probably Mitsubishi. Apparently the gearboxes dont like being run in neutral (as when charging) and are very clunky - but then the op will know that.

Also at one time there was no air filter fitted which seems a bit cheapskate

Edited December 21, 2023 by Phoenix_V

[magnetman]

Thats interesting. I think the high hours of 14,000h seems to indicate a lot of running out of gear. 

 

Maybe not but if the engine was 14 yars old that would be about 3 hours per day all yar round which seems a little unlikely to be cruising hours. 

 

 

[dmr]

11 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Thats interesting. I think the high hours of 14,000h seems to indicate a lot of running out of gear. 

 

Maybe not but if the engine was 14 yars old that would be about 3 hours per day all yar round which seems a little unlikely to be cruising hours. 

 

 

 

You are quite likely correct, but its not certain.

We have done 15,000 hours on our engine and well over half of this will be cruising. A days boating could be 6 or more hours whilst a battery run will be 3 to 4 hours. In summer we will cruise most days but if not cruising we only battery charge every second or third day.

We are a bit unusual but the engine likely gets a nicer time charging the batteries than driving along most canals, I keep the revs a bit higher and the alternators and TravelPower provide a decent load.

[Peugeot 106]

To see if you’ve got baffles. If you have a bleed hole in the top try dipping it with a rod. If you have baffles you should male contact

[Bod]

On 19/12/2023 at 22:52, rob96 said:

I have been considering a replacement engine for my 57foot narrowboat. It currently has a vetus 42 installed with 14,000hours clocked and has required a gearbox refurb and new mounts in the year I have had it, along with a new leak on the coolant pump that I haven't fixed yet (new pump is 300) and an overheating issue I need to investigate. The skin tank welded to the boat appears to be built correctly, about an inch thick and following the line of the hull but has about half the surface area that the engine manufacturer would recommend.

 

I work full time with a part time job on the side and am trying to refit the boat whenever I get a chance whilst constant cruising 🤦‍♂️. Wouldn't do it again but gone too far to turn back.

 

I was looking at a new vetus engine as it would fit my bearers without modification and is a relatively decent price if I trade in my existing engine and go with the supplied tmc60 gearbox. 

vetus m4.35 = £5569.00

vetus m4.45 = £6507.00

 

the boat yard i have taken it to suggested a rebuild to save money but i figure if i am going for all the stress of  week in a boat yard, lifting the engine, adding a skin tank, derusting and redoing the coolant hoses (very messy at the moment) then the extra cost for a brand new engine with a guarentee would be worth it?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I know i should probably just be mending bits on the engine as the faults occur but the stress of having to repair things i depend upon at inopportune moments and the fear of river cruising past weirs is getting to me.

Thanks

Waterpump and over heating.

I have seen and suffered the same, albeit with a car. the cause in my case was excessive corrosion of the vanes inside the pump, meaning the water was not pushed through the radiator for cooling.

Years ago I've seen a waterpump with a broken shalf, again the the water didn't flow, and there was a leak.

Might be worth taking the pump off, might be a simple fix, cheaper than a new engine.

 

Bod.

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, Bod said:

Waterpump and over heating.

I have seen and suffered the same, albeit with a car. the cause in my case was excessive corrosion of the vanes inside the pump, meaning the water was not pushed through the radiator for cooling.

Years ago I've seen a waterpump with a broken shalf, again the the water didn't flow, and there was a leak.

Might be worth taking the pump off, might be a simple fix, cheaper than a new engine.

 

Bod.

This water pump failure lead to engine overheating  October | 2021 | Narrowboat Oleanna

[Tony1]

I was one of those people who got burned by totally wasting money on a recon engine (for a car admittedly), but stories abound of expensive failures and unreliability. I have no statistical evidence to support this, but personally, after my experience I would never, ever, EVER consider a recon/rebuild engine, unless it was some sort of specialist/vintage thing.

Re the options- if its affordable, I'd go for the more powerful engine, because it is more likely to have a decent alternator, or at least a poly V type alternator belt, that allows you to fit a decent alternator afterwards.

I do understand that you prefer to charge using a genny, but there will be plenty of times you'll be cruising a for a few hours- and when you are cruising, why not have a strong alternator that can charge at 80-100 amps, instead of the cheapo versions (like mine) that struggle to charge at 40 amps without overheating? 

I'm assuming that as a liveaboard you'll already have (or will be fitting) enough solar panels to meet your power needs between say mid-February and mid-October. If that is the case, then you only really need to think about engine or genny charging for about 4 months of the year. 

With a good quality powerful alternator, you will be able to generate almost all the power you need each day with just an hour of engine running, whereas a genny might need 2 or 3 hours of running (so there will extra fuel costs, plus the hassle of fetching petrol from a nearby garage every 4 or 5 days). 

I'm not a big fan of running your expensive engine for hours every day to generate maybe 120 Ah of power. But if its only running for say one hour each day, and if that is only for 100-120 days each year (because you have lots of solar), then using the engine to charge might be less damaging than it initially seems.  

 

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Re the options- if its affordable, I'd go for the more powerful engine, because it is more likely to have a decent alternator, or at least a poly V type alternator belt, that allows you to fit a decent alternator afterwards.

 

 

Just remember that the RCD / RCR specifies the maximum increase in engine power you are allowed to fit if re-engining a post 1998 boat. if you get it wrong then you will need a PCA at a cost of £X,000's

[dmr]

30 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I was one of those people who got burned by totally wasting money on a recon engine (for a car admittedly), but stories abound of expensive failures and unreliability. I have no statistical evidence to support this, but personally, after my experience I would never, ever, EVER consider a recon/rebuild engine, unless it was some sort of specialist/vintage thing.

Re the options- if its affordable, I'd go for the more powerful engine, because it is more likely to have a decent alternator, or at least a poly V type alternator belt, that allows you to fit a decent alternator afterwards.

I do understand that you prefer to charge using a genny, but there will be plenty of times you'll be cruising a for a few hours- and when you are cruising, why not have a strong alternator that can charge at 80-100 amps, instead of the cheapo versions (like mine) that struggle to charge at 40 amps without overheating? 

I'm assuming that as a liveaboard you'll already have (or will be fitting) enough solar panels to meet your power needs between say mid-February and mid-October. If that is the case, then you only really need to think about engine or genny charging for about 4 months of the year. 

With a good quality powerful alternator, you will be able to generate almost all the power you need each day with just an hour of engine running, whereas a genny might need 2 or 3 hours of running (so there will extra fuel costs, plus the hassle of fetching petrol from a nearby garage every 4 or 5 days). 

I'm not a big fan of running your expensive engine for hours every day to generate maybe 120 Ah of power. But if its only running for say one hour each day, and if that is only for 100-120 days each year (because you have lots of solar), then using the engine to charge might be less damaging than it initially seems.  

 

 

There is a good amount of knowledgable people who believe that almost all engine wear happens when starting an engine from cold , so trying to extend engine life by only running for an hour is a hiding to knowhere. These people also say an engine should never be shut down till it is fully warmed up. So, having lots of batteries and running an engine for many hours maybe once every other day is probably the best way to look after an engine.

The old wisdom of an hour every morning and an hour every evening is probably not too good.

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Just remember that the RCD / RCR specifies the maximum increase in engine power you are allowed to fit if re-engining a post 1998 boat. if you get it wrong then you will need a PCA at a cost of £X,000's

 

I think its really useful to mention that RCD/RCR reg for potential future readers of this thread, but hopefully in this particular case the OP wont have to worry about that, as the new engine HP will be almost identical to his current vetus 42. 

 

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I think its really useful to mention that RCD/RCR reg for potential future readers of this thread, but hopefully in this particular case the OP wont have to worry about that, as the new engine HP will be almost identical to his current vetus 42. 

 

So if the old engine is knackered and only running on 3 of its 4 cylinders, and you put in a nice new motor with tons of compression on all cylinders do you risk goung to prison ? 😀

[Tony1]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

There is a good amount of knowledgable people who believe that almost all engine wear happens when starting an engine from cold , so trying to extend engine life by only running for an hour is a hiding to knowhere. These people also say an engine should never be shut down till it is fully warmed up. So, having lots of batteries and running an engine for many hours maybe once every other day is probably the best way to look after an engine.

The old wisdom of an hour every morning and an hour every evening is probably not too good.

 

That does make a lot of sense, even to someone without much engine know-how.

My personal take is that it supports the idea of having a decent llithium battery bank with enough capacity to see you through two or three days without needing a charge.

As you say, with a big enough battery bank you only need to run the once engine every 3 days- but you run it for 3 hours.  It's a shame I didnt get another 100Ah of capacity in my batteries. 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Tony1

[dmr]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

That does make a lot of sense, even to someone without much engine know-how.

My personal take is that it supports the idea of having a decent llithium battery bank with enough capacity to see you through two or three days without needing a charge.

With a big enough battery bank you only need to run the once engine every 3 days- but you run it for 3 hours.  

 

 

Yes, but with a big bank it might be a bit more than three hours unless you have a huge alternator. I am half way there with a big lead acid bank but lithiums would be better.

There is a story about an engine that never stopped, oil changes were somehow done while the engine was running, after many years the experiment was ended and the engine had no measurable wear.

Might be true, might not be true, but an interesting story.

[MtB]

Possibly not measurable with the engine running?

 

 

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Yes, but with a big bank it might be a bit more than three hours unless you have a huge alternator. I am half way there with a big lead acid bank but lithiums would be better.

There is a story about an engine that never stopped, oil changes were somehow done while the engine was running, after many years the experiment was ended and the engine had no measurable wear.

Might be true, might not be true, but an interesting story.

 

I absolutely love my lithiums, but you do have to consider the overall costs as we know, and that has to include the charging system.

Its not just the price of the batteries themselves that matters. 

But regardless, I would never consider going back to lead acids unless some kind of brainless BSS rule forces a change. 

I can set my charging up at say 70 amps, and the batteries will just carry on filling up at a steady 70 amps.

With the lead acids, the charging current would start to drop down within about half an hour, and sometimes I'd be seeing 30 or 40 amps (or less) going in. Although they were knackered to be fair.

So with lithium batteries and a 120 amp alternator (which you can fit with a vetus 42), plus a bit of solar, you can generate a full days charge in an hour. Or -as you said- three days charging in 3 hours.

For full time liveaboards who are planning on going lithium, this is a great argument in favour of getting a battery bank that is maybe four times your daily power consumption. 

 

 

 

[john.k]

Also consider any new engine will have masses of electronics ,and maybe even something hated  like EGR  ...Does any new engine need to be Tier3 /tier 4 compliant ?

[magnetman]

A lot of people seem to use the engine as a combined heat and power system.

They want hot water so running every day may be a requirement. 

 

 

[blackrose]

On 20/12/2023 at 05:52, rob96 said:

I have been considering a replacement engine for my 57foot narrowboat. It currently has a vetus 42 installed with 14,000hours clocked and has required a gearbox refurb and new mounts in the year I have had it, along with a new leak on the coolant pump that I haven't fixed yet (new pump is 300) and an overheating issue I need to investigate. The skin tank welded to the boat appears to be built correctly, about an inch thick and following the line of the hull but has about half the surface area that the engine manufacturer would recommend.

 

Just starting at the beginning again, why do you think the engine needs a rebuild? Isn't the overheating likely to be due to the undersized skin tank and possibly leaking coolant pump?

 

I may be wrong of course, perhaps 14,000 hours is the magic number, but sometimes in these threads the OP starts with their own hypothesis and everyone then runs with it instead of questioning it. 

 

By the way, I fitted an additional skin tank in my boat and it completely cured my engine's overheating issues. 

[john.k]

Firstly,is a new pump needed...or simply a bearing and seal costing maybe 20 quid?......the only pump Ive seen thats not rebuildable was the BT Cummins that had a 'permanently fixed sheet stainless impeller ,and Im sure these pumps are rebuilt in Pakistan and India.

[dmr]

7 hours ago, magnetman said:

A lot of people seem to use the engine as a combined heat and power system.

They want hot water so running every day may be a requirement. 

 

 

 

This is a good thing, makes best use of the engine/diesel. In the winter the engine acts as a radiator and keeps us warm half way through the night but we do sleep in the back cabin. Those who insist that a generator is more efficient forget about these things 😀

A good big calorifier should go for two days. You can always boil a kettle to supplement the washing up.

After three days its either cold showers or none at all, but I suspect once a week is good enough for most boaters anyway, all part of fitting your life in with the rythms of the boat. ,

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, dmr said:

So if the old engine is knackered and only running on 3 of its 4 cylinders, and you put in a nice new motor with tons of compression on all cylinders do you risk goung to prison ? 😀

 

No, because the boat will have been designed to take the power / weight / thrust etc of the engine running on 4 cylinders. Just because you've allowed the engine to fall into disrepair will not affect that.

[MtB]

Except of course, one can actually do as one likes with engine changes as there is no RCD or RCR policing and enforcement.

 

Except arguably, by private brokers who might appoint themselves as policemen and decline to sell the boat when you're finished with it.