Engine rebuild or replacement

[rob96]

I have been considering a replacement engine for my 57foot narrowboat. It currently has a vetus 42 installed with 14,000hours clocked and has required a gearbox refurb and new mounts in the year I have had it, along with a new leak on the coolant pump that I haven't fixed yet (new pump is 300) and an overheating issue I need to investigate. The skin tank welded to the boat appears to be built correctly, about an inch thick and following the line of the hull but has about half the surface area that the engine manufacturer would recommend.

 

I work full time with a part time job on the side and am trying to refit the boat whenever I get a chance whilst constant cruising 🤦‍♂️. Wouldn't do it again but gone too far to turn back.

 

I was looking at a new vetus engine as it would fit my bearers without modification and is a relatively decent price if I trade in my existing engine and go with the supplied tmc60 gearbox. 

vetus m4.35 = £5569.00

vetus m4.45 = £6507.00

 

the boat yard i have taken it to suggested a rebuild to save money but i figure if i am going for all the stress of  week in a boat yard, lifting the engine, adding a skin tank, derusting and redoing the coolant hoses (very messy at the moment) then the extra cost for a brand new engine with a guarentee would be worth it?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I know i should probably just be mending bits on the engine as the faults occur but the stress of having to repair things i depend upon at inopportune moments and the fear of river cruising past weirs is getting to me.

Thanks

[Willonaboat]

10 hours ago, rob96 said:

the boat yard i have taken it to suggested a rebuild to save money but i figure if i am going for all the stress of  week in a boat yard, lifting the engine, adding a skin tank, derusting and redoing the coolant hoses (very messy at the moment) then the extra cost for a brand new engine with a guarentee would be worth it?

 

 

My thoughts exactly. Too many unknowns involved with a rebuild of an old, tired engine. I would go for a new engine with a guarantee but perhaps more importantly, peace of mind.

[Grassman]

I went through a similar experience recently. The problem with a repair or refurb is that you're relying on the skill and thoroughness of whoever does the job. You frequently hear stories where people have gone for this option and it hasn't worked out, so if this happens to you then you've effectively wasted a few thousand and are back where you started. I opted for a new engine. and as well as the guarantee it comes with I also have the peace of mind that the likelihood of any problems occurring has been reduced.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Willonaboat said:

 

My thoughts exactly. Too many unknowns involved with a rebuild of an old, tired engine. I would go for a new engine with a guarantee but perhaps more importantly, peace of mind.

 

I agree but there is more to it than that.

 

1) Rebuilds don't happen overnight. My own (vintage) engine rebuild took about five years and I fitted a temporary engine in the meantime to get around, although I accept these two facts were probably related! Two or three months is probably quick though, even for a modern engine. 

 

2) If you get the new engine, fitting it gets done and dusted in one hit taking maybe a week or ten days in the yard, given the work you describe. 

 

3) Maybe this should be No 1, but your old and knackered engine may well be of some considerable value to someone needing an engine and posessing the skills to re-build it themselves, given it is a modern and current model. At a guess maybe a £k or two. Or maybe even more given the recent new gearbox. Although I notice on re-reading, the prices you quote are trade-in prices.

[IanD]

Vetus engines are not exactly a favourite on here due to high prices, especially spares -- Beta Marine is the mostly common recommendation, and they will supply custom bearers to make it a drop-in replacement.

 

But maybe this will cost more, especially if Vetus offer a big trade-in discount to stop them losing a customer...

[magnetman]

Beta are good but will be more expensive. 

 

I think I would go for the new Vetus as long as it definitely is identical to the existing unit in terms of dimensions.

 

There might be something different about the new one so worth checking everything carefully. 

Something like a slightly different gearbox to the existing unit could throw a spanner in the works and need engine bed modifications.

 

[BEngo]

Generally, a rebuild is cheaper than a replacement, but only if an identical replacement engine is not available.  You still have to find ( and pay)  a competent mechanic to do the rebuild. Then wait, with no power,  while it is done.aa   There are too many De Vilbiss rebuilders out there!

 

So,  if a drop-in replacement is available and you can afford it, go new.

 

  You say a new Vetus will fit the bearers without modification, but what about all the connections, ( controls, awires, fuel, exhaust, etc.)  and the prop?  The connections can be the expensive bit, because they take time and often specialist labour.  The current  prop may or may not suit the new engine. What about the price for an extra skin tank?  This cost is there whatever you do but still needs to be allowed for.  Check that the boatyard prices cover all these things, before going ahead.  Ideally you want a single lump-sum total.

N

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

Vetus engines are not exactly a favourite on here due to high prices, especially spares -- Beta Marine is the mostly common recommendation, and they will supply custom bearers to make it a drop-in replacement.

 

But maybe this will cost more, especially if Vetus offer a big trade-in discount to stop them losing a customer...

 

 

I've noticed lots of comments over the years about the nose-bleed cost of Vetus spares, but I didn't realise the engines were so cheap to buy in the first place. This explains why so many boats have Vetus installed, which often puzzled me. 

 

SO the Vetus business model appears to be sell 'em cheap and make the profit on the spares later, while Beta seem to sell the engines at a commercial price and spares are then only "quite expensive". 

 

The OP has the opportunity now to switch brands, if he so wishes. 

 

 

[magnetman]

Also with 14,000 hours one wonders if this engine is being run out of gear for charging a lot. 

 

If so then it might be pertinent to investigate the effectiveness of the charging system and batteries if a new engine is going in. 

 

 

If it is not primarily used for Boat Propulsion (could be shuffling along every two weeks but run every day for charging) then keeping it running and getting a good generator could be worthwhile. 

 

 

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I've noticed lots of comments over the years about the nose-bleed cost of Vetus spares, but I didn't realise the engines were so cheap to buy in the first place. This explains why so many boats have Vetus installed, which often puzzled me. 

 

SO the Vetus business model appears to be sell 'em cheap and make the profit on the spares later, while Beta seem to sell the engines at a commercial price and spares are then only "quite expensive". 

 

The OP has the opportunity now to switch brands, if he so wishes. 

 

Vetus are using the inkjet printer business model then... 😉

[dmr]

I am making a similar decision right now.

14,000 is towards the time when a rebuild/overhaul is required to sort out any bore wear etc.

Is the replacement engine just like a new engine with all new marinisation bits, or can you get the bare industrial engine and swap all the bits over?

 

A rebuild might be cheaper but there are many unknowns so its hard to price it up, if extra things are required like crankshaft regrind/replacement of cylinder head machining then the price can go up quite a lot.

and as others have said, unless you are able to do the rebuild finding somebody to do it for you is not that easy.

 

Unless money is really tight go for the new engine, and there is a rule of thumb....once the rebuild gets to more than half the price of the new engine go for the new one..

and if you do sell the boat in the future a new engine is likely a better selling point than a rebuild.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Explore Canaline engines before you decide. They will supply with the correct mounting points to replace your existing engine to order. Prices are more competitive than Beta or Vetus I find.

Your Vetus is likely to be a Japanese plant engine under all that yellow paint, a replacement basic engine from Mitsubishi usually or Yanmar etc. will be cheaper and your marinisation bits will transfer over.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

I've noticed lots of comments over the years about the nose-bleed cost of Vetus spares, but I didn't realise the engines were so cheap to buy in the first place. This explains why so many boats have Vetus installed, which often puzzled me. 

 

SO the Vetus business model appears to be sell 'em cheap and make the profit on the spares later, while Beta seem to sell the engines at a commercial price and spares are then only "quite expensive". 

 

The OP has the opportunity now to switch brands, if he so wishes. 

 

 

Sounds a bit like printers, the printer is cheep but the ink bankrupts you 

[rob96]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think I am going to go for the replacement for peace of mind, simplicity and a desire to have a nice tidy engine bay to maintain, although I am still coming to terms with what it will cost me (honestly been fretting about this since the first littlle engine issue).

I have heard great things about beta marine but one of their engines with adjusted feet to fit my bearers would be more in the 10k region and the stress of trying to sell the current engine. If the current engine is a vetus that has survived 14k hours and could do more, then vetus will do for me, looking online the spares all seem roughly the same for engine manufacturers give or take 15%.

I have already replaced and rerun the whole electrical system, new batteries, charger, solar, inverter etc and got a small generator to keep the batteries topped up instead of idling the engine so would be great to have a tidy engine bay

Would appreciate some advice on a few bits that I want to look at in the engine bay in the cleansing.

I think i might try and make the skin tank myself to save a bit of money but have a few questions about its design.

I have some 5mm check plate, would this be adequate with the rough surface on the inside of the tank?

I think i will have to put some slits into the check plate to about half its thickness every say 50mm so that i can bend it to fit the curve of the hull, would i then need to weld these slits up?

How many baffles should i put in the tank and what sort of space should i leave at the end of the baffle for coolant to travel through?

I also have a very large silencer on my current exhaust (engine is insanely noisy anyway so not sure what the point was) but i figure it is worth keeping if i can? It is covered in surface rust and welded to the hull on a welded in bracket. I would like to remove it so that i can rust treat and paint the corner of bilge it is hiding. Can i just clean up the exhaust aswell, paint it with something and weld it back in?

Thanks

 

[BEngo]

 5 mm plate will be fine. The checkers can be inside or out, to your taste!

 

5mm will bend to the curve without slitting. Jumping on it, or driving a fork lift on to it when supported at the edges  will get it going.  The swim itself is probably 6mm, bent without slitting.   You may need to temporarily weld on a few levers to help with the bending.  If the boat is in the bank, bend it off the boat, fitting it to the swim outside  until it is very close, then check against the inside.  If you do slit it you will need to weld up the slits, otherwise you have an effective tank wall of 2 or 3 mm

 

  You will need to curve the top and bottom strips, which you do by beating one edge into the groove of some rsj or heavy rsc with a 14lb 'ammer, moving along steadily.  Start with a piece that is too long and trim to length.

 

The tank itself wants to have water space about 25 to 30 mm thick.  Set the baffles to give a water channel about 30-35 mm  wide. Leave about 50-70  mm for  the return bends.  Water runs from top to bottom.

 

Don't forget an air vent at the top front.

 Remove, clean and refit the exhaust.  Paint it with stove paint or Sperex HT paint in pretty colours.  I would not keep it if it is not effective.  Much easier to have a working one as part of the engine swap than pay more, and have extra hassle,  to get it done later.  Provided you have the money now of course.

By the time you are done you will be well able to demonstrate that BOAT is an ETLA for Bring Out Another Thousand.  😯 🙂

N

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

I don't recall the OP saying that the engine overheats, so if it does not now, they why should it with a new engine? I accept that the skin tank probably is undersized according to the engine marinisers, but they probably calculated the size based on prolonged full power. If the OP has no intention of running at full power for long periods, then a larger skin tank may not be necessary. I think this is worth giving a bit of thought to.

[Peugeot 106]

Could you not make a thin plywood pattern for the skin tank - you only need the shape- and then get a welding shop with a roller to bend and weld it all. You weld it into the boat.

 

I agree entirely with this sensible thread. I am one of those people who buy  secondhand cheap and then spend more than it would cost to buy new to fix what I’ve just bought……

 

“Fitting” the engine ie dropping it in, lining it up and bolting up the mounts and coupling is the easy bit. If everything else has moved, exhaust, cooling, fuel lines, electrics, control cables. That’s where the head scratching starts

 

To be clear I’m no expert and I should have learned by now but if I need a replacement it will be the same as the one I’ve got

[JungleJames]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't recall the OP saying that the engine overheats, so if it does not now, they why should it with a new engine? I accept that the skin tank probably is undersized according to the engine marinisers, but they probably calculated the size based on prolonged full power. If the OP has no intention of running at full power for long periods, then a larger skin tank may not be necessary. I think this is worth giving a bit of thought to.

Overheating mentioned in first post.

[MtB]

On 19/12/2023 at 22:52, rob96 said:

It currently has a vetus 42 installed with 14,000hours clocked and has required a gearbox refurb and new mounts in the year I have had it, along with a new leak on the coolant pump that I haven't fixed yet (new pump is 300) and an overheating issue I need to investigate.

 

[Peugeot 106]

Just out of interest how big is the existing skin tank. Has it any baffles??

[PaulJ]

1 hour ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Could you not make a thin plywood pattern for the skin tank - you only need the shape- and then get a welding shop with a roller to bend and weld it all. You weld it into the boat.

 

 

Not a bad idea although in my case I preferred 'kit form'. 

Last time I fitted one instead of messing about having to bend 30mm x 6mm strips into curves I made up a hardboard template took it to a local fabricator/machine shop and got them to cut them out for me.

Saved me alot of time and banging about- had the inner panel cut to size too so just a matter of sticking it all on and adding a few skin fittings. Well worth the bit of extra material cost.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, JungleJames said:

Overheating mentioned in first post.

 

Yes, but he also said his engine water pump is leaking, so that may be the cause. We need to be looking at for how long has it suffered overheating and under what conditions it did it. If it has been since he got the boat and only under high powers then its a skin tank problem almost certainly, but if it is concurrent with the water pump leak, perhaps not.

[BEngo]

I would agree with Tony, but

 

The existing engine is coming out, forceebuild or renewal.  That will (should) deal with ang engine issues.

 

The existing tank is smaller than the engine supplier recommends.  This potentially risks a warranty refusal because the engine is "incorrectly " installed.

 

The engine bay needs a good sort out.

 

For the effort and extra cost involved it seems worth it to have a larger skin tank.  Better to do it now when access is easy than after a new engine is fitted.

 

N

 

[Tony Brooks]

I wonder if it would be cheaper to put keel cooler pipes around the swim and in series with the skin tank, but it would mean the boat coming out of the water.

[rob96]

Thanks for the advice on the skin tank and exhaust. I think I will have a go at doing it myself, hopefully take some expense out of the new engine and fitting prices. everything is identical in terms of placement so my current setup will be fine with the exception of new cooling pipes and welding in some angle iron to support them neatly around the bilge.

I am unable to tell if the existing skin tank (about 0.45m^2) has any baffles in it, not sure if there is a way of checking that without cutting it open?

Will try and get by using up my check plate then to make it and hopefully get by without making any slits.

How many baffles should i be trying to put in? seems to be mixed results when googling.

Also will take the advice on cleaning up the current silencer unless it is no longer any good. How would i judge if it warrants a replacement?

Thanks