Back again! the proverbial bad penny.

[Handyandy180]

Ah well you all thought he's gone quite after my last post about the difference between cruiser, traditional and semi ?

Sorry but I'm back wanting info? Yes i could Google the answer but it seems to me google doesn't know what your answer, nor experience is.

 

Well I always thought a Dutch barge was a lot bigger (Width and length more like a wide berth) than a standard. whatever length canal boat? Just seen one for sale called "Marmite" 55Ft x 6ft 10 ''. Sounds perfect to me! 

But what is the difference? it's not a traditional , a semi trad nor a cruiser.  So can anyone tell me what is so good or bad about a Dutch?

Many thanks in advance Chris.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Handyandy180

[Tony Brooks]

I think that you mean a Dutch barge STYLE narrowboat which, in my view, is basically a cruiser stern with a wheelhouse over it. The better ones might have slightly wider side walkways and vertical cabin sides. Often have improbably large "T studs" for mooring lines.

[Handyandy180]

Sorry Tony, I was in the process of editing my original post when your answer to my original came in. can you tell me more about " T studs"? Not heard of them before.

Oh and by the way it Is now, 9.28PM where i am (Australia) and i believe its 8.28am in the UK?  Please don't let this influence your replies,  I may not be able to answer due to time difference but, This Yorkshire Tyke is coming home

[David Schweizer]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that you mean a Dutch barge STYLE narrowboat which, in my view, is basically a cruiser stern with a wheelhouse over it. The better ones might have slightly wider side walkways and vertical cabin sides. Often have improbably large "T studs" for mooring lines.

 

There was a thread about this last year.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by David Schweizer

[LadyG]

Ive not read the whole back story, but if buying  a boat to live on from abroad, I'd use a broker or pay a trusted person to have a look.

I'd tend to buy a good secondhand boat which would sell on if it turned out to be unsuitable.

I'd absolutely not buy a project which is a whole can of worms.

As to style, I've seen a few Dutch barge style NBs, really not a lot of point IMHO. 

You must have gunwales.

If you want to stay on the broad canals a widebeam, will be more relaxing to live inside, but less popular with others if you do a lot of travel.

Of course you can't then travel the whole system.

WB come in all styles, not just the squashed toad look of a widebeam in the NB style.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, Handyandy180 said:

Sorry Tony, I was in the process of editing my original post when your answer to my original came in. can you tell me more about " T studs"? Not heard of them before.

Oh and by the way it Is now, 9.28PM where i am (Australia) and i believe its 8.28am in the UK?  Please don't let this influence your replies,  I may not be able to answer due to time difference but, This Yorkshire Tyke is coming home

 

Typical UK narrowboats have one mooring line fixing on the centre line close to the bow, that is in the form of a T. There may be a pair of similar studs, one on each side at the rear. The rear ones are often dollies that are a length of steel bar turned to a waste in the middle.

 

On a real Dutch barge the similar line fixings tend to be large, strong, and more in the style of a ship. Some narrow boat Dutch barge builders copy this on a smaller scale, so the fittings are larger and more intrusive, taking up outside space and presenting a larger trip hazard. 

 

You really need to see a few, both internally and externally, so you can see how the individual design affects the aesthetics and internal space.

 

I have doubts that some designated as such but with a fixed wheelhouse are able to pass under the lower canal bridges, particularly the flat railway ones. Folding wheelhouses may have a canvas roof and are usually made of wood, so there are maintenance and possibly condensation issues there.

 

[LadyG]

T studs are the typical single bow to shore fastening on a NB.

As they are "anchor points", they can be a weak point if the boat is not well built. A few dabs of weld is not strong  enough. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by LadyG

[blackrose]

Dutch barge style narrow boats in my opinion incorporate the worst of both worlds. Unlike a real Dutch barge (or new build Dutch style barge) not only are they narrow meaning you have limited space inside, but like a Dutch barge they are also likely to be deeper draughted than an equivalent size narrowboat. Although the wheelhouse will be collapsible, taking it down and putting it up will be a hassle and with it up the air draught of the boat will be too high to get under some bridges. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by blackrose

[Stroudwater1]

It’s the “Marmite” Dutch barge I know of it can’t be too much hassle and its likely a decent boat for inland waterways as it did the South Pennine ring 2 years ago pretty rapidly and was in Liverpool basin this year. It was called Marrmite though.
 

I don’t think it can be too deep draughted as it didn’t get much prop fouling on the Rochdale I gathered either. Likewise it got under the very low bridge on the Ashton OK too. 
 

It looked pretty nice to me, nicer than others I’ve seen. It’s a centre cockpit. 
 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/narrow-boats-barge-for-sale/747765

 

 

[Bee]

It is just a narrowboat but styled to look a bit different, I quite like them but others don't. 

[magnetman]

It is remarkable how much interior space extra wide side decks take from the inside of the boat. 

 

I personally believe that a proper trad starn narrow boat is the right thing if you want to do narrow canals. I no longer want to do them and have had all sorts of different boats but a 'dutch barge style narrow boat' is not sensible. 

 

For example do the doors go out the side or out the back? If they go out the side they are a liability and you can get decapitated entering locks. 

 

It seems awfully clever but it actually isn't. In reality it is a nuisance and I am sure these boats have fast turnover. 

 

 

 

Not being (too much of) a luddite but if you examine the design of a properly constructed trad starn narrow there really isn't a lot wrong with it. 

 

Yes you have to deal with weather but you can have a fire right beside you and a coat. Bridges are low on narrow canals. 

 

I don't own one but I do think the trad style narrow is an example of the ideal design which is very difficult to improve on .

 

People will tend to think they know better but I would bet in most situations they don't. 

 

[Graham Davis]

I think it was named "Marmite" on purpose..............

 

[ditchcrawler]

Don't one of the members of this forum have a Narrowbeam Dutch Barge or whatever you would like to call it.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

It is remarkable how much interior space extra wide side decks take from the inside of the boat. 

Marmite looks to have narrow gunwales and near vertical.cabin sides, meaning there is probably more space internally than on many more typical narrow boats. On the other hand walking down the gunwale must be a pain as there is no room for thighs and backsides wider than your feet, so you need to hang over the edge and hold on to the handrail. And walking along the gunwales in the bottom of narrow locks must be nigh on impossible (without getting covered in slime). And with a central wheelhouse there must be occasions when you need to do just that.

[DandV]

Where unique local conditions exist unique local designs have developed.

In England the recreational steel narrowboat is the latest iteration of the former canal transport craft designed around the unique, and tiny, limiting dimensions , and the working arrangements, particularly lock working of the English waterways network.

 

This is the same for the recreational Dutch Barge, but designed,  around their local conditions which are markedly different. (Except for some rivers, and some northern canals). 

Limiting dimensions are much more generous, but encountered waves higher, and encountered flow rates higher. 

There is a need for much enhanced emergency anchoring provision, and even lock working favours different placement and accessibility of deck hardware for line handling.

 

Implanting features from a craft optimised for markably different conditions ignores the centuries of evolution of the local watercraft, and results in a comprimised kitch bodge.  

 

Bow fender or anchor dangling from a hawsepipe?

 

[IanD]

17 hours ago, magnetman said:

It is remarkable how much interior space extra wide side decks take from the inside of the boat. 

 

I personally believe that a proper trad starn narrow boat is the right thing if you want to do narrow canals. I no longer want to do them and have had all sorts of different boats but a 'dutch barge style narrow boat' is not sensible. 

 

For example do the doors go out the side or out the back? If they go out the side they are a liability and you can get decapitated entering locks. 

 

It seems awfully clever but it actually isn't. In reality it is a nuisance and I am sure these boats have fast turnover. 

 

 

 

Not being (too much of) a luddite but if you examine the design of a properly constructed trad starn narrow there really isn't a lot wrong with it. 

 

Yes you have to deal with weather but you can have a fire right beside you and a coat. Bridges are low on narrow canals. 

 

I don't own one but I do think the trad style narrow is an example of the ideal design which is very difficult to improve on .

 

People will tend to think they know better but I would bet in most situations they don't. 

 

 

Horses for courses, as usual. For a single boater a trad stern is ideal, for two it's cramped (unless the hatch is extra large), for more who want to travel outside sociably it's a complete PITA. Exactly the reverse applies for a cruiser stern -- great for several people in good weather, terrible for one in bad weather. A semi-trad is a compromise which some would say is the best option and others would say is neither fish nor fowl... 😉

[magnetman]

Nor good red herring. 

[Handyandy180]

47 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Horses for courses, as usual. For a single boater a trad stern is ideal, for two it's cramped (unless the hatch is extra large), for more who want to travel outside sociably it's a complete PITA. Exactly the reverse applies for a cruiser stern -- great for several people in good weather, terrible for one in bad weather. A semi-trad is a compromise which some would say is the best option and others would say is neither fish nor fowl... 😉

Sometimes Magnetman it is the simplest answer that prevails, thank you.

Chris

16 hours ago, David Mack said:

Marmite looks to have narrow gunwales and near vertical.cabin sides, meaning there is probably more space internally than on many more typical narrow boats. On the other hand walking down the gunwale must be a pain as there is no room for thighs and backsides wider than your feet, so you need to hang over the edge and hold on to the handrail. And walking along the gunwales in the bottom of narrow locks must be nigh on impossible (without getting covered in slime). And with a central wheelhouse there must be occasions when you need to do just that.

Thanks David, Took a while to know what a gunwale was? Even happier that i worked it out without Google.

You're point has been taken on board. 

So to speak , cheers.

Chris

On 14/11/2023 at 21:43, LadyG said:

Ive not read the whole back story, but if buying  a boat to live on from abroad, I'd use a broker or pay a trusted person to have a look.

I'd tend to buy a good secondhand boat which would sell on if it turned out to be unsuitable.

I'd absolutely not buy a project which is a whole can of worms.

As to style, I've seen a few Dutch barge style NBs, really not a lot of point IMHO. 

You must have gunwales.

If you want to stay on the broad canals a widebeam, will be more relaxing to live inside, but less popular with others if you do a lot of travel.

Of course you can't then travel the whole system.

WB come in all styles, not just the squashed toad look of a widebeam in the NB style.

 

Hi Lady G, First of all i'd like to thank you for your honesty (Ive not read the whole back story?) I obviously cannot divulge all the particulars but  yes it will be a live aboard. My trade denotes that i could buy a sailaway and do the work myself. Not sure i want to if i'm being honest. Ive personally done lots of conversions, previously on all sorts of live in vehicles. 

Ive got a few contacts still in Yorkshire that could buy the boat for me, so no need for a broker.

May i ask you a question?

What type of boat do you have?

regards Chris

 

[David Mack]

33 minutes ago, Handyandy180 said:

 

Ive got a few contacts still in Yorkshire that could buy the boat for me, so no need for a broker.

Brokers almost invariably work for the seller - they are not usually boat finders. So if the boat you want to buy is being marketed by a broker (on behalf on the owner*), you will have to deal with the broker; if the owner is advertising directly you will deal with the owner.

 

* Some brokers also buy boats directly to sell them on. From a buyer's perspective the process is little different, although under consumer law you have more rights if the broker already owns the boat, but they won't usually tell you that!

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Horses for courses, as usual. For a single boater a trad stern is ideal, for two it's cramped (unless the hatch is extra large), for more who want to travel outside sociably it's a complete PITA. Exactly the reverse applies for a cruiser stern -- great for several people in good weather, terrible for one in bad weather. A semi-trad is a compromise which some would say is the best option and others would say is neither fish nor fowl... 😉

A cruiser stern isn't really terrible in bad weather, you just have to wear the right gear. I like the opportunity to sit down while steering, for a start! I know you can sit on the roof on a trad, and that explains why they don't slow down to pass boats... and you can't get knocked off the back of a cruiser stern with a swing of the tiller.

For a liveaboard, I suspect it's just the waste of space that matters. My 40 foot boat only has a 23 foot cabin, which wasn't ideal to live on. An extra ten foot would have made a huge difference.

[magnetman]

Yes thinking about it my most comfortable boat was my first narrow boat which was a 30ft cruiser starn. I put a recaro seat from a scrap yard on a beer keg on the deck and sat in that for the steering. Very comfy. A lot more comfy than the trads I had after that but I'm thinking of the bigger picture. Deck boards are a nuisance and canvas covers. A trad deck without a silly lifting lid is ideal. Rain has a havit of getting in everywhere. 

 

The country estate boat is a canal boat but not narrow (9ft) it is a copy of an inspection lunch. It has a cruiser starn deck. The drains are very well done but it is still a weakness. 

 

 

First thing is to avoid water coming in from below but it is equally important to stop water coming in from above. 

 

Easy to overlook the latter but I bet more boats have been sunk by water from above. 

 

Sinking is quite extreme but the more one can do to discourage above water from getting in the better life will be. 

 

 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Handyandy180 said:

Sometimes Magnetman it is the simplest answer that prevails, thank you.

Chris

Thanks David, Took a while to know what a gunwale was? Even happier that i worked it out without Google.

You're point has been taken on board. 

So to speak , cheers.

Chris

Hi Lady G, First of all i'd like to thank you for your honesty (Ive not read the whole back story?) I obviously cannot divulge all the particulars but  yes it will be a live aboard. My trade denotes that i could buy a sailaway and do the work myself. Not sure i want to if i'm being honest. Ive personally done lots of conversions, previously on all sorts of live in vehicles. 

Ive got a few contacts still in Yorkshire that could buy the boat for me, so no need for a broker.

May i ask you a question?

What type of boat do you have?

regards Chris

 

I have the first boat I looked at, having spent three months research. I lived in Scotland.

I wanted a good builder, good engine, no rust. 

I have a 57ft Tyler Wilson, then twenty years old. It has windows and portholes.

It was on the hard, hull had been epoxied from new and clean as a whistle.

Owner fitout and paintwork.

I realise you probably don't want to pay broker commission, but good boats may be sold that way, also they may be sited in a convenient location so you may be able to view half a dozen boats in one day that way, but only one or two private sales.

I don't know commission costs, but say its about £3K, that may not be a deal breaker.

 

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

I realise you probably don't want to pay broker commission, but good boats may be sold that way, also they may be sited in a convenient location so you may be able to view half a dozen boats in one day that way, but only one or two private sales.

I don't know commission costs, but say its about £3K, that may not be a deal breaker.

The buyer doesn't pay broker commission, the seller does (although it may be factored into the asking price).

[Francis Herne]

20 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Don't one of the members of this forum have a Narrowbeam Dutch Barge or whatever you would like to call it.

@DHutch has one, but the steam engine probably has more effect than the styling...

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Francis Herne said:

@DHutch has one, but the steam engine probably has more effect than the styling...

I forgot about that, but for the life of me cant remember the name of the other one,