Fuel boats - don't pay in cash.

[Arthur Marshall]

Last spring (late May), I got a tankful of diesel and a can of gas from Halsall on the Shroppie. I'm usually on my own and pay by card, but this trip my wife was with me and she decided to pay, and she paid in cash. For some reason, probably due to the fact Halsall was floating about in the middle of the canal and wanted to get on, we never got a receipt and a month or two later I got a message from the office saying they had it showed as an unpaid amount. I explained that it had been paid in cash and thought no more about it, and heard nothing else for a couple of months, when I got another message to say that I owed them just over a hundred quid. I explained what had happened, and asked them to check again with the boat. Now, in October, I finally get a message saying that they'd spoken to the boat operators and they were certain that they hadn't been paid.

I have argued that I could see no logical reason why Halsall should have sailed on without being paid when I had a card in my wallet and that they must simply have shoved the cash somewhere, forgotten to mark the book and treated it as petty cash. However, they are adamant that I owe them this money and will not accept that a mistake could have been made.

I am certain, having had happy relations with Halsall & Alton for many years that they are completely honest, and that no-one is trying to cheat me in any way whatsoever. However, I am equally certain that they were paid and they are, in essence, calling me a liar. There is absolutely nothing I can do about it except send them the money (again) with a letter to say that it is paid under protest and, as far as I possibly can, avoid using them again. Which is a pity. Without the fuel boats we'd all be a lot worse off. But just make sure you get a receipt, and keep it.

[Tracy D'arth]

Very sad, and also very unusual for Halsall.  If you have a witness that money was handed over I would suggest telling them to sue you. If you have no witness, pay and complain, righting it off to experience. It is upsetting.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

How do they come up with your name?

 

They’re based at Bollington ?

Personally I’d go over and talk in person and in the politest possible way refuse to pay. 
 

 

eta: of course they make a note of the boats they sell to

Edited October 3, 2023 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[magnetman]

It does seem odd they would have departed without being paid. 

 

I suppose if they are in the habit of delivering to boats with owners not present there could have been a mix up. 

 

 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Last spring (late May), I got a tankful of diesel and a can of gas from Halsall on the Shroppie. I'm usually on my own and pay by card, but this trip my wife was with me and she decided to pay, and she paid in cash. For some reason, probably due to the fact Halsall was floating about in the middle of the canal and wanted to get on, we never got a receipt and a month or two later I got a message from the office saying they had it showed as an unpaid amount. I explained that it had been paid in cash and thought no more about it, and heard nothing else for a couple of months, when I got another message to say that I owed them just over a hundred quid. I explained what had happened, and asked them to check again with the boat. Now, in October, I finally get a message saying that they'd spoken to the boat operators and they were certain that they hadn't been paid.

I have argued that I could see no logical reason why Halsall should have sailed on without being paid when I had a card in my wallet and that they must simply have shoved the cash somewhere, forgotten to mark the book and treated it as petty cash. However, they are adamant that I owe them this money and will not accept that a mistake could have been made.

I am certain, having had happy relations with Halsall & Alton for many years that they are completely honest, and that no-one is trying to cheat me in any way whatsoever. However, I am equally certain that they were paid and they are, in essence, calling me a liar. There is absolutely nothing I can do about it except send them the money (again) with a letter to say that it is paid under protest and, as far as I possibly can, avoid using them again. Which is a pity. Without the fuel boats we'd all be a lot worse off. But just make sure you get a receipt, and keep it.

If you never got a receipt then surely they can't prove they supplied the fuel to you for the same reason you can't prove you paid them?

[magnetman]

 

There was a geyser on a fuel boat around London a number of yars ago who was just a steerer and coal lugger who turned out to be putting cash in his pocket. 

 

Presumably when you did the deal it was the normal people on the boat. 

 

If they have written your details down one must ask how was it described in their book. 

Delivered and not paid? 

 

 

[Guest]

Im afraid under no circumstances would I pay them such a large amount twice, if we were talking a fiver I would write it off but a 100 quid is a lot of money.

 

Politely tell them to swivel take you to court for the money. They won't.

 

However of course you will need to source your fuel elsewhere.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by M_JG

[ditchcrawler]

32 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It does seem odd they would have departed without being paid. 

 

I suppose if they are in the habit of delivering to boats with owners not present there could have been a mix up. 

 

 

I have had diesel from them when the boat was moored, but I think I got a text in 24 hrs saying it had been delivered and how much I owed.

[Arthur Marshall]

I have (up to May) had excellent service from them. I'm as sure as I can be that it's an honest mistake, and I value the work and the effort they have put in over the years, so I am going to pay them again. I've certainly no intention of mucking about with threats of suing anyone for a few quid, I'd only do that if I thought there was a whiff of dishonesty. This is just inefficiency, which, to be honest, I've had from the company over something else before so isn't that much of a surprise.

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have had diesel from them when the boat was moored, but I think I got a text in 24 hrs saying it had been delivered and how much I owed.

Yes this will be common. They must have a book and something must be written down at the time. 

 

I would be tempted to ask to see this. A mobile phone image of the transaction as written in the book at the time. If nothing was written then there was no transaction although the OP by starting the topic has in fact admitted to receipt of the products. 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have had diesel from them when the boat was moored, but I think I got a text in 24 hrs saying it had been delivered and how much I owed.

Me too - when Jason was running the boat up the Macc he often filled me up or left gas/coal, and I paid when I got the text. In this case, I was on the boat and I've always paid there and then in those cases. I had both enough cash myself and a bank card, and my wife had the cash - so why on earth wouldn't we have paid at the time? Which we both remember with certainty that we did. It's not that surprising that almost six months later, those on the boat don't remember it, and it appears that the office never bothered to get in touch with them to ask until I insisted after the last communication.

Bear in mind that the first mention of it not being paid was a couple of months after the sale - not a text the next day.

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Yes this will be common. They must have a book and something must be written down at the time. 

 

I would be tempted to ask to see this. A mobile phone image of the transaction as written in the book at the time. If nothing was written then there was no transaction although the OP by starting the topic has in fact admitted to receipt of the products.

Apparently they have details of the sale in the book, but made no note of the payment.  Quite possibly because they were moving straight on to another customer - that I can't remember.

15 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

However of course you will need to source your fuel elsewhere.

 

That i intend to do, anyway.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[jonathanA]

It seems to me Arthur your an honourable person and you think they are although mistaken in this case. 

It also seems you have a witness in your wife. Personally I would not pay them unless I needed their services again and really didn't have a good alternative. 

 

It seems to me that a reasonable position would be offer to split the cost with them and pay £50. 

Although i have to say I'd tell them to do one.

Edited October 3, 2023 by jonathanA
Add

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 There is absolutely nothing I can do about it except send them the money (again) 

 

Yes there is. If you're sure you've paid then you can just refuse to pay them again. That would definitely be my course of action.

 

Since the transaction was in cash and neither party have any record of it it's their word against yours and I think a small claims court is likely to find in your favour especially if you've got records (bank statements) of having paid them previously and Halsall can't provide any evidence of you previously having had to pay later. This would indicate to the court that you'd always paid in person at the time.

 

Even if it doesn't go to the small claims court I'd ask Halsall if they can find any record of you having to pay later previously. That should make them think that they might have made a mistake.

 

By the way, who are you actually talking to at Halsall? If it's just someone in an office ask to speak to their manager and keep going up until you get someone who you can actually think for themselves and doesn't automatically respond "computer says no".

Edited October 3, 2023 by blackrose

[Tony1]

I wonder if it would be worth asking if they would split the difference, so to speak? 

They've known you for a long time, and they'll be aware that you would not suddenly go rogue and deliberately cheat them. 

And likewise, they would not knowingly cheat you. 

If you can have a reasonable chat on the phone, they might accept a compromise payment of £50, on the basis that they are just as likely as you are to have made a mistake. 

 

If I may add a suggestion old boy, I think a hundred pounds is a rather large sum to allow one's lady wife to carry about in public. 

In my day we gave them an allowance sufficient to pay for a cucumber sandwich and a hansom ride home from the WI, and they were jolly grateful for it. She'll be asking for a phone next. 

 

[Mike Tee]

It just doesn’t make sense that they would deliver diesel and gas when you were present and leave without payment. I think this should be a matter between the owner of Halsall and whoever they had running the boat on that day.

[Jon57]

17 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I wonder if it would be worth asking if they would split the difference, so to speak? 

They've known you for a long time, and they'll be aware that you would not suddenly go rogue and deliberately cheat them. 

And likewise, they would not knowingly cheat you. 

If you can have a reasonable chat on the phone, they might accept a compromise payment of £50, on the basis that they are just as likely as you are to have made a mistake. 

 

If I may add a suggestion old boy, I think a hundred pounds is a rather large sum to allow one's lady wife to carry about in public. 

In my day we gave them an allowance sufficient to pay for a cucumber sandwich and a hansom ride home from the WI, and they were jolly grateful for it. She'll be asking for a phone next. 

 

Yep .self declaration 60/40 🤨👍

[mrsmelly]

57 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I have (up to May) had excellent service from them. I'm as sure as I can be that it's an honest mistake, and I value the work and the effort they have put in over the years, so I am going to pay them again. I've certainly no intention of mucking about with threats of suing anyone for a few quid, I'd only do that if I thought there was a whiff of dishonesty. This is just inefficiency, which, to be honest, I've had from the company over something else before so isn't that much of a surprise.

It is though their inefficiency and not yours. If you have kept 100 percent to your side of the contract and paid in full there is no way I would pay again. Whilst I agree fuel boats do a sterling job, paying twice is simply not on under any circumstances.

[JungleJames]

If, as you say, you don't intend to use them again anyway, what gain have you got in paying them again?

 

Call them. A sensible discussion asking them why you would suddenly have not paid. Ask them to find evidence of you having not paid there and then (when onboard) before.

Of course, I'm assuming they can't.

 

Ask them to find some sort of evidence that you never paid on time this time. That means a carbon copy of an official 'promise to pay' or whatever system they usually use. Perhaps a receipt with the words 'Pay Later' written somewhere.

Of course, they won't be able to because they never supplied one.

 

A blank space next to your name does not count. Anybody can forget to put a tick under the paid column in their little book.

 

Ask for evidence before paying again. If they produce so called evidence, you can be sure they are dishonest and you can run their name into the mud on here.

 

But if they are honest, they won't have evidence, and they can't do anything.

 

Of course, I'm assuming you are giving the full story, which I've no doubt you are!

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, JungleJames said:

Ask them to find evidence of you having not paid

 

There are some stupid suggestions made.

 

How can they prove that you didn't do something ?

 

"I haven't made a note that you paid so that is evidence that you didn't pay"  

 

I haven't paid him ever, therefore I must owe a fortune (mind you I have never had anything from him either, but I cannot prove that !)

[magnetman]

23 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Whilst I agree fuel boats do a sterling job, 

This one seems to have !

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

"I haven't made a note that you paid so that is evidence that you didn't pay"  

 

No but if they had made a note then it would presumably show the payment arrangement. 

 

It sounds like someone liked cash and just didn't write it down and its come up but the odd thing is they know who was involved in the transaction so this detail WAS written down somewhere. 

 

Otherwise how would they know where the diesel and gas went ? 

 

 

I agree with the earlier post which said this is between the business operator and the person handling the transactions on the boat at the time. 

 

It is an obvious problem. 

 

 

[Paul C]

Yeah, just tell them you're not paying - or simply do nothing and await next step from them. They can't prove they supplied gas/diesel just as you can't prove you paid, so it looks like a stalemate anyway.

 

If they are supplying diesel and other stuff "on credit" to boaters who are not present, who later pay - that's good on them.

 

If they are supplying stuff "on credit" while you're there in person, that's a completely different kettle of fish and an incredibly bizarre way to run a business (if they're not actually a credit broker like say if you went into Currys and bought a washing machine on a 0% deal - and they certainly WOULD have a record of you buying it!!)

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It sounds like someone liked cash and just didn't write it down and its come up but the odd thing is they know who was involved in the transaction so this detail WAS written down somewhere. 

 

Otherwise how would they know where the diesel and gas went ? 

 

How do I know that a fuel boat has not written by boat details down as I went passed and wrote that I had 1000 litres of diesel from them.

Head office contact C&RT who gives them my name and address, the company takes me to court for non-payment how do I prove I never had the fuel ?

[magnetman]

You think a fuel boat has reasonable reasons to get contact details from the CRT? 

 

That is an interesting and rather displeasing thought. 

 

I somehow doubt it. 

[JungleJames]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There are some stupid suggestions made.

 

How can they prove that you didn't do something ?

 

"I haven't made a note that you paid so that is evidence that you didn't pay"  

 

I haven't paid him ever, therefore I must owe a fortune (mind you I have never had anything from him either, but I cannot prove that !)

I'm not going to try and decipher everything.

But, to request payment after the occasion, when it is disputed, they need to prove they supplied the goods and they weren't paid for at the time.

 

They can't just say 'Give me money'. 

 

Evidence is something like a carbon copy of a delivery receipt, signed by Arthur or his wife, with a note saying it's to be paid later.

[magnetman]

 

I suppose the OP needs to tell us how the coal boat orifice staff contacted him and why they had his contact details. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Head office contact C&RT who gives them my name and address, the company takes me to court for non-payment how do I prove I never had the fuel ?

Do you reckon I could get boat owner contact details if I set up a lavender boat called 'Out of Shite Out of Mind Ltd"? Some people might not pay on time !