Licences

[haggis]

Just had an email from C&RT telling us that licences are going up on 1/4/2024 and that they will go up more than inflation for the next five years. Figures will be announced in November but boats without a home mooring and fat boats will have their licence increased. It looks like all the discounts will be retained. 

Although this is pretty much what was expected, it will be bad news for a lot of people.

[Tonka]

Just now, haggis said:

Just had an email from C&RT telling us that licences are going up on 1/4/2024 and that they will go up more than inflation for the next five years. Figures will be announced in November but boats without a home mooring and fat boats will have their licence increased. It looks like all the discounts will be retained. 

Although this is pretty much what was expected, it will be bad news for a lot of people.

not the early pay and pay online discounts though

[haggis]

5 minutes ago, Tonka said:

not the early pay and pay online discounts though

It says they will be "reduced" but not by how much. I think they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they make these discounts less attractive as folk will probably stop paying their licence on time.

 

[Tonka]

It will be interesting to see what the inflation figure will be that they base it on. 

Especially if the government do away with the triple lock for pensioners.

Could be a glut of boats for sale next year

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Tonka said:

It will be interesting to see what the inflation figure will be that they base it on. 

Especially if the government do away with the triple lock for pensioners.

Could be a glut of boats for sale next year

I don't think a percent or so either way in inflation measure makes much difference compared to the amount above inflation CART is going to increase the fees by (10%?), and how big the increases for boats without a home mooring and widebeams are -- together these are likely to make a much bigger difference...

 

There's massive resistance to getting rid of the triple lock, and given that most pensioners vote Tory it's extremely unlikely to happen under this government or before the GE.

Edited September 19, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Another few weeks before the detail is announced. 

 

Intriguing. 

 

 

When can I find out the boat licence fees for next year?
Details will be announced in November using the latest inflation forecasts.

 

 

 

 

Its not just inflation though is it. People will want to know the increases for wide beans and cc ers. 

 

 

 

 

Also interesting to see what effect it has on the licence evasion percentage. 

 

 

[Nightwatch]

To be honest and fair my opinion as a CC’r and not particularly well off financially, if these increases result in better proactive maintenance and resulting repairs then so be it. If, as I suspect personally, it’s just a folly to get funds for pay rises for management then this would need to be investigated thoroughly. I and many have written to our MPs for clarification on the government’s position regards funding for our national waterway system. This has resulted, in far too many cases, is a cut and pasted letter in response. It’s sad times and ain’t going to get any better in the future.

[Ewan123]

8 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

To be honest and fair my opinion as a CC’r and not particularly well off financially, if these increases result in better proactive maintenance and resulting repairs then so be it. If, as I suspect personally, it’s just a folly to get funds for pay rises for management then this would need to be investigated thoroughly. I and many have written to our MPs for clarification on the government’s position regards funding for our national waterway system. This has resulted, in far too many cases, is a cut and pasted letter in response. It’s sad times and ain’t going to get any better in the future.

I also don't actually mind paying some more in principle (liveaboard CCer); however, I don't expect this move to increase CRT's budget for maintenance, rather just try and plug the gap left by the lower DEFRA funding, so it seems more likely that it might enable them to maintain current standards rather than improve anything. To increase the budget significantly they'd probably have to hike the price to beyond what many will pay and thereby not gain much overall when some chose not to.

 

I think high management salaries are a red herring/not useful in this discussion - they take pennies from the overall budget and you do actually need some high paid bods in an organisation as big as CRT, which is responsible for the generating and spending of many millions of pounds.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Ewan123

[magnetman]

 

 

It was interesting that in the CRT information they did say if you can't afford it and are living on the boat you can possibly claim housing benefit. This is slightly inaccurate as HB doesn't exist for new claims of this sort it is now the housing element of universal credit. But yes UC will pay for cc licences if you live on the boat and can demonstrate eligibility. 

 

But the fact they mentioned this perhaps indicates some quite severe price rises coming for the cc licence group. 

 

Of course a side effect of that would be to increase demand for permanent moorings. 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by magnetman
add

[haggis]

Anne from NABO has just put up a link on FB showing the results of the consultation at https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/48477-appendix-b-boat-licence-consultation-summary-report-board.pdf?v=a355c2&fbclid=IwAR0iSIYteo3im_l1nkBhQL3ycFta0rS4930edH4195yRfgk-Xt8Ewa0J8xQ

 

Sorry don't know how to make a short link 🙂 

Edited September 19, 2023 by haggis

[magnetman]

Lots of pretty graphs. 

Don't think it says how much people are going to pay. Difficult to take it all in on a phone screen and no computer here. 

[Hudds Lad]

Licence fee changes Hello, I am writing to let you know about some changes to future boat licence pricing following a consultation with boaters. Alongside growth in income from other commercial and fundraising activity, the changes will help support the long-term future of the 2,000 miles of waterways that we manage across England & Wales.   Boat licence fees will need to rise above the baseline inflation rate for each of the next five years. In addition, we are introducing a surcharge for boats that continuously cruise and increasing the surcharges for wide beam boats to reflect the greater utility they receive.   The above-inflation increases for all boat licence holders, and the new surcharges, will take effect from 1 April 2024. Details will be announced in November using the latest inflation forecasts.   Our canals are facing some daunting challenges and, if we don’t act now, the future could look bleak. The government recently announced significant cuts to public funding for the canals over the years ahead, whilst high inflation rates and the ageing infrastructure has seen the cost of caring for canals rise. We’re re-doubling our efforts to further grow volunteering and to raise increased funds across all our activities, from all our users and supporters, so we can deliver the additional ongoing investment that the network needs. The boat licence fee represents around 11% of income, going towards vital maintenance and repairs. Whilst the scale of the investment required is in no way to be borne by boaters alone, the increases from boat licences will make an important contribution.   Alongside the changes to boat licensing, we are continuing to grow income from our property and non-property endowment, and from other commercial sources such as hosting utilities and water transfer, which together contribute over 40% of our income. We are targeting a step-change in income generation from towpath users and other supporters, with fundraising income projected to grow by 10% each year – while other commercial waterways income, including from anglers, paddle sports and moorings, is also set to increase.   Boat use has changed over the years, with rising numbers of people choosing to continuously cruise, and to choose wider boats. Most boaters without home moorings spend more time on the waterway network, and make more use of facilities, than those with a home mooring. Wider boats take up more space on the water than their narrow beam counterparts. We believe that reflecting the utility people get from their use of the waterways network, and the cost of supporting different boat use, is the fairest way to decide licence pricing – as reflected in the responses from the recent boater consultation.   We also considered whether the various licence discounts currently offered are sustainable. From 1 April 2024, there will be a reduction in the discounts for prompt payment and for paying online as this has become the standard method used by the vast majority of boaters. The electric boat, historic boat and charity boat discounts will be retained.   We will continue to control our costs as far as possible given external pressures, while focusing our resources on the priority maintenance and repairs that are required to support safe navigation, and we will continue to lobby the government to rethink their short-sighted decision on our future funding.   We recognise that these changes to licence pricing will not be popular with everyone, but the income we receive from boat licences is more critical than ever. The cost of the licence has largely kept pace with inflation since Canal & River Trust was formed and now, together with increases in income from all possible sources, we must raise the resources needed to keep the network alive for future generations, averting a return to the decline of the mid-20th century when canals fell into disrepair in the face of insufficient funding.   The consultation report can be found here, alongside an equality impact assessment: National consultations. For more information on boat licensing, visit: Licence your boat. Our ultimate aim is to secure the future of the network so that boaters, like yourself, can continue to enjoy, and benefit from, this precious national treasure. Richard Parry Chief Executive Canal & River Trust

[magnetman]

 

Group Responses
All boaters 8,479
Continuous cruiser 1,908
Home mooring 6,412
Other mooring type 159

 

I wonder what an 'other mooring type' is. 

[Cheshire cat]

What's that then? Roughly 25% of boaters responding. A reasonable turnout

[Ewan123]

4 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

What's that then? Roughly 25% of boaters responding. A reasonable turnout

Is it? For a subject that will have a material effect on all boater's wallets, I would have expected a higher turnout than that. I would say that turnout suggests that quite a number of boaters were unaware of the survey/unable to respond for some reason.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

What's that then? Roughly 25% of boaters responding. A reasonable turnout

The percentage of CCers and home moorers in the survey is also similar to the number of each type of boater, so reasonably representative.

 

I don't think there are any surprises in the result, which compares four different license fee structures -- same as today, CC surcharge, area-based pricing, bigger width surcharge. Those who would pay more under each of the three changed schemes are understandably against each of them and favour the status quo. A CC surcharge is the most popular option, since three-quarters of boaters/responses have home moorings. A bigger charge for widebeams (either of the last two schemes) is also strongly favoured, because most of the responses are from narrowboaters.

 

Which explains the CART decision that fees will go up, there will be a CC surcharge, and widebeams will be charged more -- all as predicted. Now we just have to wait for the actual numbers in November... 😞

[Alan de Enfield]

And, how the 74% (26% responded) are going to complain when they couldn't even be arsed to comment / make suggestions.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

Is it? For a subject that will have a material effect on all boater's wallets, I would have expected a higher turnout than that. I would say that turnout suggests that quite a number of boaters were unaware of the survey/unable to respond for some reason.

Being unaware seems unlikely since CART used the same means to contact every boater that they use for license fee matters:

 

"Invites were sent to c.33,000 individual boaters
representing c.35,000 licenced boats. Invites were sent to
boaters primarily by email. However, where a valid email
address was not held by the Trust, boaters were invited by
text message or post, instead"

 

Unable to respond seems unlikely, didn't bother (e.g. "it's pointless, they've already decided...") seems much more likely.

[Chewbacka]

25 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Group Responses
All boaters 8,479
Continuous cruiser 1,908
Home mooring 6,412
Other mooring type 159

 

I wonder what an 'other mooring type' is. 

My guess - a mooring not on CRT waters.  So a mooring that doesn't contribute to CRT either directly or indirectly through their mooring fees.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Chewbacka said:

My guess - a mooring not on CRT waters.  So a mooring that doesn't contribute to CRT either directly or indirectly through their mooring fees.

 

Or even 'trailer' boats, licenced but 'moored' at home.

[john6767]

45 minutes ago, haggis said:

Anne from NABO has just put up a link on FB showing the results of the consultation at https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/48477-appendix-b-boat-licence-consultation-summary-report-board.pdf?v=a355c2&fbclid=IwAR0iSIYteo3im_l1nkBhQL3ycFta0rS4930edH4195yRfgk-Xt8Ewa0J8xQ

 

Sorry don't know how to make a short link 🙂 

The link to the consultation is in the email that everyone already has, what am I missing?

[haggis]

Sorry. Just trying to be helpful in case some members didn't get the email.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

I don’t see why all discounts should be retained, especially electric boats with massive diesel generators or the so called Heritage boats, maybe Heritage boats prior to say 1945, but not all. 
Lets see if the continuous moorers decrease next year.

9 minutes ago, john6767 said:

The link to the consultation is in the email that everyone already has, what am I missing?

Not everyone on here would of got it, there’s people on here who aren’t boating anymore, so useful to those who want to keep up to date with what’s going on.

Edited September 19, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tonka]

6 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I don’t see why all discounts should be retained, especially electric boats with massive diesel generators or the so called Heritage boats, maybe Heritage boats prior to say 1945, but not all. 
Lets see if the continuous moorers decrease next year.

Not everyone on here would of got it, there’s people on here who aren’t boating anymore, so useful to those who want to keep up to date with what’s going on.

 CRT are going to spend a lot of money putting the infrastructure in for electric boats I.e charging points but this will be paid for by those with internal combustion engines. Who are having their infrastructure, I.e rubbish points, elsans etc removed

[Rambling Boater]

For those who haven't got a land home to go back to when they can no longer afford to live on a boat, will tax payers be happy to fund somewhere for them to live? 

 

As usual this will mainly hit those on the bread line. The C&RT government subsidy (paid from our taxes) being removed, is a tiny fraction of what our government is spending on HS2 (which will benefit very few tax payers - us). The canals and rivers are enjoyed by most tax payers. I wonder whether C&RT have made this point to government?

 

In the email it references the cost of maintaining the facilities and infrastructure, however we've seen a gradual decay over previous years. Will the extra funds go towards replacing the utilities that have been lost and repairing the infrastructure? Hmm

 

Rant over.