Licences

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

Now it’s evident that the new licence system will be based on Home Mooring and Non-Home Mooring boats. Will Marina’s and recorded Mooring locations be required to do monthly/quarterly returns to CaRT of Moored boats on their moorings?
 As it seams all too simple for boat owners to change their own mooring status on the CaRT personal/Boat licence details log in.  
It also seams quite easy for boats that are recorded with a home mooring to go CCing, as people have argued when not getting the CCing grant as they never updated their home mooring status to non-home mooring.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[davem399]

1 hour ago, john6767 said:

Doesn’t the licence holder share all the emails with you, that is for you to organise is it not?  Relying on a random person posting links on Facebook does not seem like a good way of getting your information.

The designated licence holder is actually away on board at present.  And I thought this was a forum, not Facebook?  This forum is a far better source of canal related info than F/B.

Edited September 19, 2023 by davem399

[magnetman]

More rigorous checks on moorings definitely needed. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by magnetman
typo

[adam1uk]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I agree that the electric boat discount seems unfair to everyone else, personally I would be happy if it went. But I'm pretty sure that CART want to encourage the use of electric/hybrid boats to be "green" and cut noise/fumes/pollution, maybe even with a long-term view to providing charging points (but little evidence of this network-wide), and are keeping the discount to encourage boaters to switch -- like government incentives to switch to EVs or heat-pumps.

 

It should also be pointed out that the numbers of both electric and heritage boats are very small so removing the discount would have very little effect on what other boaters would pay, but this doesn't change the perceived "unfairness"...

As I understand it, the electric discount is only available to those with a serial hybrid, not those with a parallel hybrid, so the discount itself doesn’t make much sense.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Ewan123 said:

"But them over there are polluting more than me" is a terrible argument against reducing emissions in pretty much any given case. Just because someone else is doing worse, doesn't mean that I (we/boaters) shouldn't be expected to improve ourselves.

 And what engine is in your boat? An old diesel engine I take it? and how many full electric boat owners fo you know who are not running a diesel generator when there’s no sun?

 I think Just by putting a couple of solar panels on the roof of an old diesel engined boat and traveling around the canals under diesel power your having a minuscule effect on saving the planet, but it makes people feel better about it.

 So you bought your diesel  engined boat a couple of year ago. Why didn’t you buy an Electric boat?

 Looks like you CC. moving and running a diesel engine quite regular all year to comply with CCing regulations, So you run your engine more than most, so your probably doing more than a lot of boaters when it comes to releasing harmful exhaust emissions. Do you also run a car like most new boaters?

 Yes it’s not ideal, but your doing less than me about saving the planet running your boat.

 This Thread is about the Licence increase and not how we should save the planet.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, adam1uk said:

As I understand it, the electric discount is only available to those with a serial hybrid, not those with a parallel hybrid, so the discount itself doesn’t make much sense.

Yup. The majority of canal boats have a diesel engine and a propeller. Put a gearbox on the end of the engine and then a rotating shaft to the prop and you pay the standard licence fee. Put a hydraulic pump on the end of the engine, some pipes and hose and then a hydraulic motor to drive the prop and you pay the standard licence fee. Put an electric generator on the end of the engine, some wires and then an electric motor to drive the prop and you pay a reduced licence fee. Where's the logic in that?

Ah, you say, but some of the electricity I use to power the motor comes from the mains or my solar panels, and is stored in my large battery bank, so I use less diesel than the boater with a mechanical or hydraulic drive. But if I get myself a large battery bank and connect a generator/motor setup to my mechanical or hydraulic setup, I too can store electricity from the mains or solar and reduce my use of diesel. But I don't get a licence discount. Where's the logic in that?

If there is to be a discount for electric boats it should only apply to those that have no diesel engine on board!

[magnetman]

Presumably the decisions have been made and everyone is on tenter hooks. Firstly they say inflation then they mention the cc and the wide beans. 

 

One wonders if some of the detail will leak or if someone will form a strong enough rumour to set social media alight as the nights draw in. 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Presumably the decisions have been made and everyone is on tenter hooks. Firstly they say inflation then they mention the cc and the wide beans. 

 

One wonders if some of the detail will leak or if someone will form a strong enough rumour to set social media alight as the nights draw in. 

 

 

Ah, when the nights draw in and electric boats can’t relay on their solar panels and need to run their diesel generators all day to boil their electric kettles 😂☕️

Edited September 19, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Paul C]

36 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Now it’s evident that the new licence system will be based on Home Mooring and Non-Home Mooring boats. Will Marina’s and recorded Mooring locations be required to do monthly/quarterly returns to CaRT of Moored boats on their moorings?
 As it seams all too simple for boat owners to change their own mooring status on the CaRT personal/Boat licence details log in.  
It also seams quite easy for boats that are recorded with a home mooring to go CCing, as people have argued when not getting the CCing grant as they never updated their home mooring status to non-home mooring.

 

They already do (partly) in that they let CRT checkers in to the marina to check on the boats there. And also, CRT monitor the number of boats which are licenced declaring their mooring there, vs the number of mooring places.

 

AKA "The Ghost Mooring"

[Tonka]

44 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It would be even better to charge 3 grand a yar and continue with the current status around moving every 14 days and satisfying the board. 

 

Why introduce the idea you can stop moving? People have chosen to do this knowing it is cheap and knowing in life things change. Looks like a pretty handy cash cow to me. 

 

 

 

 

I reckon the CRT can milk this if they want to. People will pay up because even at 3 grand per annum it is massively cheaper than renting some hovel from a slum landlord. 

 

 

 

 

By targeting cc and wide beans the CRT have correctly identified that this is a housing topic. Housing in every other way of living involves a lot of money coming out of your pockets. 

 

 

Perhaps time the canals were taken out of some sort of protective zone and people required to pay. 

 

It makes an awful lot of sense. 

 

 

 

but loads of boats are unlicensed now. An increase in fees will only make more people not pay unless CRT actually do something about the unlicensed boats 

[Momac]

There have already been significant increase in license fees 

The proposed further year on year  increases extra over inflation although not  quantified exactly may well result in declining boat numbers and that will reduce rather than increase C&RT's income from boating.

 

 

 

[magnetman]

20 minutes ago, Tonka said:

but loads of boats are unlicensed now. An increase in fees will only make more people not pay unless CRT actually do something about the unlicensed boats 

 

I'm not convinced about that. 

 

I suspect being unlicensed is an attitude thing not a financial constraints problem.

 

There probably would be a blip in the number of unlicensed boats but I doubt it would be a lot. 

 

I know nothing about it and this is supposition. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, MartynG said:

There have already been significant increase in license fees 

The proposed further year on year  increases extra over inflation although not  quantified exactly may well result in declining boat numbers and that will reduce rather than increase C&RT's income from boating.

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand we have a situation where boat values have gone up. This should be a basic economic impossibility because a boat is a depreciating asset. OK you can buy and old one and do it up but what has been happening is boats which were bought many yars ago are worth more with no material improvements. 

 

If the licence fees go up a lot some of the existing boats will be sold at a discount which will allow people who are cash poor but have wages and a disposable income to own nice boats. 

 

There is something wrong about boats going up in value over time and I think it is related to the cost of ownership being too low. 

 

 

 

 

I don't see mass scrapping of boats. I suppose some people will leave CRT water but it you have a narrow boat the CRT water is where you go because otherwise it would be pointless constraining yourself by having a narrow beam boat in the first place. 

 

 

 

 

I can imagine an influx of wide beans on the Thames though which should adequately irritate the already irritable gin palace owners. 

 

Just look out in winter as the River goes up and down and gets hungry. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

38 minutes ago, Paul C said:

They already do (partly) in that they let CRT checkers in to the marina to check on the boats there. And also, CRT monitor the number of boats which are licenced declaring their mooring there, vs the number of mooring places.

 

AKA "The Ghost Mooring"

I hope CaRT can work with Marina/mooring operations and have a better more efficient system in place if they are going to bring in Home and Non-Home based licenses, 

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I hope CaRT can work with Marina/mooring operations and have a better more efficient system in place if they are going to bring in Home and Non-Home based licenses, 

When I got my boat sighting most were when it was in the marina

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

When I got my boat sighting most were when it was in the marina

 

Yes, but it just seams too simple for people to self declare/change their mooring location on their personal details on CaRT database. Hopefully it will change and be more accountable, which it has to be if the licence is based on declaring a mooring.

Edited September 19, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Yes, but it just seams too simple for people to self declare/change their mooring location on their personal details on CaRT database. Hopefully it will change and be more accountable, which it has to be if the licence is based on declaring a mooring.

 

 

How easy is it to do it on the website? 

 

Surely the CRT can just remove that facility if it is causing problems. 

 

 

It seems to me that a cc er is a cc er and a mooring is a continuous contract rather than a temporary winter arrangement. 

 

Maybe it will prove desirable to no longer provide winter moorings. 

 

 

I'm not sure when they started I think it was around 2000. Certainly not a long term thing and I noticed they stopped doing winter towpath moorings in central London quite a while ago.

 

I don't think there is a right to have a winter mooring so if this conflicted with the new licence 'bands' it seems it would be easy enough to knock it on the head and require year round adherence to the cc ing rules/law/guidelines. 

 

 

[Tonka]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

How easy is it to do it on the website? 

 

Surely the CRT can just remove that facility if it is causing problems. 

 

 

It seems to me that a cc er is a cc er and a mooring is a continuous contract rather than a temporary winter arrangement. 

 

Maybe it will prove desirable to no longer provide winter moorings. 

 

 

i would have thought it was another way to catch those out without a home mooring because they are more likely to want a winter mooring

[magnetman]

 

Presumably the winter mooring idea was based on revenue collection so if the licence cost goes up for people without moorings there would be no need to offer winter moorings any more. 

 

 

 

The legality of taking money for people to live on towpath moorings while the CRT waive the requirement for bona fide navigation seems slightly intriguing. 

 

 

[Ewan123]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 And what engine is in your boat? An old diesel engine I take it? and how many full electric boat owners fo you know who are not running a diesel generator when there’s no sun?

 I think Just by putting a couple of solar panels on the roof of an old diesel engined boat and traveling around the canals under diesel power your having a minuscule effect on saving the planet, but it makes people feel better about it.

 So you bought your diesel  engined boat a couple of year ago. Why didn’t you buy an Electric boat?

 Looks like you CC. moving and running a diesel engine quite regular all year to comply with CCing regulations, So you run your engine more than most, so your probably doing more than a lot of boaters when it comes to releasing harmful exhaust emissions. Do you also run a car like most new boaters?

 Yes it’s not ideal, but your doing less than me about saving the planet running your boat.

 This Thread is about the Licence increase and not how we should save the planet.

 

 

Crikey, I never claimed I was doing better than anyone else. I'm saying I (and others) should make efforts to improve, because it's not enough to say that others have a greater impact.

 

I will defend myself a bit though, since you're making assumptions about me/digging through my post history. Yes I have a diesel engine and CC. I couldn't afford an electric boat. I was completely converted to HVO until it got so much more expensive, and intend to go back to it ASAP. No I don't run a car. I do intend to take up electric propulsion when I can afford it, but currently I can't. Hopefully by then it will be a more feasible prospect (charging points etc.) to enable me to continue with my privileged lifestyle travelling the waterways. By profession I'm an ecologist, so I'm dedicating my working life to pushing/enabling developers etc. have less impact on our environment.

 

Let's drop this tangent then and let the thread get back on track.

[magnetman]

The million dollar question is will the CRT clobber cc er and wide beans very badly or will it all be a bit of a damp squib. 

 

I reckon damp squib. 

50% increase or something rather than proper clobbery.

[Ewan123]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The million dollar question is will the CRT clobber cc er and wide beans very badly or will it all be a bit of a damp squib. 

 

I reckon damp squib. 

I reckon it might end up as a clobber after we've seen a few years of the increases.

[Paul C]

52 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that a cc er is a cc er and a mooring is a continuous contract rather than a temporary winter arrangement. 

 

 

 

 

 

Its continuous for the duration it lasts - winter. So its both. Its pretty simple: you are either a CCer or you have a mooring. If you have a (winter) mooring, you aren't a CCer.

[magnetman]

How does this work now that cc er licences are different to those with home moorings? 

 

This seems to be the proposal. 

 

Is this the end of winter moorings I wonder. 

 

 

Most canal boat licences are issued on a 12 month contract. 

I feel for this to work and for other reasons the CRT are going to have to pull the plug on towpath winter moorings and require adherence to the '95 act all the time. 

 

Of course if you go for a marina winter mooring but cc the rest of the time the CRT will presumably be charging you a cc licence fee and it is up to you if you want to pay a 3rd party for a winter mooring. 

 

 

[Paul C]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

How does this work now that cc er licences are different to those with home moorings? 

 

This seems to be the proposal. 

 

Is this the end of winter moorings I wonder. 

 

 

Most canal boat licences are issued on a 12 month contract. 

They're not; or, they always have been different.

 

I don't see any link with winter mooring issues.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

Just now, magnetman said:

How does this work now that cc er licences are different to those with home moorings? 

 

This seems to be the proposal. 

 

Is this the end of winter moorings I wonder. 

Well not really as they may well only be available to non-home mooring license paying CCers and if they wish to take them up over Winter it’s their choice.
I think it may be very rare for someone with a genuine home mooring to take a Winter mooring, it may identify some “Ghost” home moorers, if they apply for a short term Winter mooring.