Life jackets, really?

[Tom Morgan]

On 02/08/2023 at 23:19, magnetman said:

Out of interest what were the actions which preceded this event? 

 

It sounds a little unusual and an explanation may help others avoid the same rather unfortunate mishap.

 

 

While litterpicking early in my career - found the usual remnants of the local yoofs' "bring a carrier bagful of cans of beer to the tail of the lock, light a little fire and then sit drinking and throwing the empties into the canal."  Overreached while bending and reaching to pick the cans out with the grabber.  Slid into the canal head first - very gracefully, according to a boater who saw it.  Note to self - go back to base and get the rake, next time.

 

 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

https://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/2023-crewsaver-crewfit-165n-sport-automatic-lifejacket-9710nba-navy-p-34402.html

 

Free postage (unlike a lot of other sites) and £5 off your first order, so £75 delivered 🙂

Also available in red if visibilty is a requirement, though not from wetsuitoutlet it would appear.

[Momac]

9 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

There is a risk of my glasses fogging up?

Would your glasses not fog up if you fell into cold water even if you were not wearing a lifejacket?

 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Would your glasses not fog up if you fell into cold water even if you were not wearing a lifejacket?

 

 

I've fallen into the canal through ice, and my glasses fogging up was by *far* the least of my worries -- mainly because they were underwater with the rest of me. Well, except for one arm holding a tankard of beer... 😉

Edited August 4, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

8 hours ago, IanD said:

https://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/2023-crewsaver-crewfit-165n-sport-automatic-lifejacket-9710nba-navy-p-34402.html

 

Free postage (unlike a lot of other sites) and £5 off your first order, so £75 delivered 🙂

Yes that recall notice did put me off the Seago brand, but I felt they were less bulky than the Crewsaver, I'll probably go for that one,  they must have sold millions over the years. Plus I want to avoid red as it looks too official.

On 02/08/2023 at 12:50, Ray T said:

 

Yes, we can all be silly and take things to the extreme. When I sailed at Draycote Water sailing club one of the rules was that a wet or dry suit must be worn when sailing in the months of November to March. This was to stave off "Cold Shock." Cold shock response - Wikipedia

So, should it be advocated all boaters must wear dry / wet suits in the winter months when on the boat in case they fall in? 😁

Dinghy sailors are much more likely to fall in than inland water users, they can't wear automatic lifejackets, so suitable sailing clothing is a good idea. When sailing under the aegis of a club, then it's up to the club to demand certain safety standards. No one wants to rescue someone only to find they are hypothermic, it's not "a freak accident"

I would not say this is an extreme requirement, the club probably has to have a H&S policy, that's life nowadays.

Edited August 4, 2023 by LadyG

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Would your glasses not fog up if you fell into cold water even if you were not wearing a lifejacket?

 

No, I only wear my glasses for reading.  I don't need them for falling in canals.

[Momac]

14 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

No, I only wear my glasses for reading.  I don't need them for falling in canals.

So no hazard associated with the lifejacket inflation as you suggested earlier

[MtB]

16 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

There is a risk of my glasses fogging up?

 

Why would you not fold them up and tuck them safely into a pocket on your way down, if you were falling in? 

 

Just wondering....

 

 

 

 

[Momac]

On 02/08/2023 at 13:17, Puffling said:

Should we then advocate for solo boaters to carry VHF radios with a DSC feature on their person at all times?

I am not really sure vhf would work on the canals although an automated dsc distress call might not be received.

A plb might be a better tool.

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I am not really sure vhf would work on the canals although an automated dsc distress call might not be received.

A plb might be a better tool.

 

 

See (near the top of)  page 3 of this thread.

 

Which was (as to be expected) poo-pood by the forum expert who knows everything about everything ............. (they call him 'compass' as he appears to have more degrees than a compass)

 

I think the discussion about expensive maybe-will-maybe-won't-work DSC and PLB for canal/river use is basically pointless "I-know-better-than-you" willy-waving...

[Momac]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

See (near the top of)  page 3 of this thread.

 

Which was (as to be expected) poo-pood by the forum expert who knows everything about everything ............. (they call him 'compass' as he appears to have more degrees than a compass)

 

I think the discussion about expensive maybe-will-maybe-won't-work DSC and PLB for canal/river use is basically pointless "I-know-better-than-you" willy-waving...

PL'Bs should work inland as they transmit to  satellites. The walls of a lock would be a partial barrier to that signal . But a cave or a mountain would also be  barrier to any signal. You can't cater for all eventualities. 

 

A vhf voice call is unlikely to be heard inland unless in certain areas where vhf is used. Even then its a matter of luck (or the time of day) if someone is listening . (eg if not under way I don't usually have the vhf on). But generally on the canals vhf is not used at all so there is no one listening. Even if another boat on a canal has a fitted vhf thay will not have it on usually.

 

I suspect the R.Trent lock keepers don't have DSC - certainly they don't publicise it if they do. 

 

For the same reasons an automated DSC distress call  would probably not be received from most inland locations.

 

I do know my vhf stops receiving in some  Locks on the Trent.  VHF does, however ,  work around obstacles to some extent. (I communicated with West Stockwith from Keadby via VHF , which was a surprise).

 

Travelling single handed by boat is a risk in itself.with regard to safety if a fall or sudden illness event occurs. The same is true of walkers, being at home alone , or lone working.

I did hear a few years ago of a narrowboat arriving at one of the Trent locks with no one on board. The skipper had fallen in with a big coat on (it was  winter)

and no life jacket. He didn't survive. But thankfully such events are rare.

 

My mother in law fell at home and was discovered only by chance (twice). On the second event she had a lifeline but she did not have the call button on her (stubborn as a mule).

 

If you fall into water a lifejacket isn't going to help you if you are not wearing it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

PL'Bs should work inland as they transmit to  satellites. The walls of a lock would be a partial barrier to that signal . But a cave or a mountain would also be  barrier to any signal. You can't cater for all eventualities. 

 

A vhf voice call is unlikely to be heard inland unless in certain areas where vhf is used. Even then its a matter of luck (or the time of day) if someone is listening . (eg if not under way I don't usually have the vhf on). But generally on the canals vhf is not used at all so there is no one listening. Even if another boat on a canal has a fitted vhf thay will not have it on usually.

 

Which was exactly the points I made.

I agree that the PLB to satellite signal maybe compomised for a period until a satellite passes over but is still better than nothing.

 

The PLBs still 'work' when (say) a walker has fallen into a ravine but the response time is affected.

 

From the owners manual .............

 

Fast Find 210 has a built-in Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver to potentially reduce the time for SAR teams to arrive on scene. If the sky view is obscured by tree canopy or a steep-sided canyon, the GPS may take longer, or possibly fail to obtain a position fix. In this case the distress alert may be transmitted without GPS location information.

[Hudds Lad]

As it's just dropped in my inbox, there's 10% off at Wetsuit Outlet with the code: SUN10

 

might be useful if you're looking for a life jacket or re-arming kit??

[LadyG]

On 02/08/2023 at 16:11, robtheplod said:

Regarding servicing... is this yearly regardless of use?   I've worn mine for about 2hrs in the last few years and it lives in its original bag....... its a Crewsaver Crewfit 165N 

Read the booklet.

I've just received my Besto harness automatic, I am unable to do the check they recommend as the capsule is so firmly attached. I have checked and replaced quite a few previously but this is very firmly screwed in.

The handbook gives recommendations for servicing periods 

[churchward]

On 02/08/2023 at 16:11, robtheplod said:

Regarding servicing... is this yearly regardless of use?   I've worn mine for about 2hrs in the last few years and it lives in its original bag....... its a Crewsaver Crewfit 165N 

Yes, it is regardless of being in the cupboard all the time or if you have been wearing it.

 

That said there are loads of life jackets out there that do not get serviced as often as they say and they are just fine. The manufacturers are being cautious with a life-saving bit of kit to make sure that it works when it is needed.

 

 

It is a personal choice for anyone whether to wear a buoyancy aid or a life belt. It's your life.

 

For myself, it depends on the type of boating I am doing.  Generally on canals, I do not wear one but did use my lifebelt when on the river Severn and Avon earlier in the year.

 

When I am sailing I use a buoyancy aid for dinghy sailing as it is more likely you are going to get wet and it is much easier to get back into a boat particularly sailing solo than if you are wearing a lifebelt. When sailing in the sea I tend to wear a lifebelt and often use a lifeline.  One is moving about a boat that is also moving and bobbing about and your balance can be caught unawares.

 

I do not understand the argument that wearing one means you can become complacent, no one really wants to fall in, and no matter what you think, you are not in control of everything that happens. To be frank I would say not properly assessing the risk and how you can mitigate it is being complacent.

 

It is a sad fact even on Llyn Tegid (Lake Bala a 130ft+ deep lake in parts) that the vast majority of the people who drown in the lake were not wearing a buoyancy aid of some kind.

 

On 05/08/2023 at 09:09, MartynG said:

I am not really sure vhf would work on the canals although an automated dsc distress call might not be received.

A plb might be a better tool.

 

At sea, I use one of these clipped to my lifebelt.

 

Ocean Signal PLB1: RescueMe Personal Locator Beacon GPS (marinesuperstore.com)

Edited August 11, 2023 by churchward

[Stroudwater1]

1 hour ago, churchward said:

. The manufacturers are being cautious with a life-saving bit of kit to make sure that it works when it is needed.

 

 

It is a personal choice for anyone whether to wear a buoyancy aid or a life belt. It's your life.

 

 

It is a sad fact even on Llyn Tegid (Lake Bala a 130ft+ deep lake in parts) that the vast majority of the people who drown in the lake were not wearing a buoyancy aid of some kind.

 

 

The only trouble with that statement is the proportion of people in the lake wearing life jackets is usually a small proportion anyway. It’s not much more helpful than stating most people who died when driving their car were wearing seat belts. 
 

Agree it is a personal choice. It only becomes society’s when it costs a lot to fix someone. Hence seat belt and helmet legislation. Despite that the number of horse and motorcycle riders not wearing helmets on private land is quite significant. 

[LadyG]

24 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

The only trouble with that statement is the proportion of people in the lake wearing life jackets is usually a small proportion anyway. It’s not much more helpful than stating most people who died when driving their car were wearing seat belts. 
 

Agree it is a personal choice. It only becomes society’s when it costs a lot to fix someone. Hence seat belt and helmet legislation. Despite that the number of horse and motorcycle riders not wearing helmets on private land is quite significant. 

I think that most horse riders wear a helmet, it's saved my life.

All riding schools require it, so everyone who has a horse has a helmet.

I also used to ride a motorbike bike without a helmet to dry my hair, but generally you will be going on the road where one is required, it's easier to wear one all the time. I absolutely cannot understand why parents don't buy a helmet when they buy scooters and bikes for their children, it's putting someone else's life in danger, why would they do that?

Folks who think that their actions have no affect on others are pretty immature and can never have been involved in a drowning or other major incident.

Edited August 11, 2023 by LadyG

[haggis]

This thread is an indication of how things have changed - for the better I think. I had ponies and I never had a bridle but rode with a rope halter ( I could still make one ! ), and didn't have a hat. It took me years to save up for a saddle so I rode bareback. I cycled to school  almost two miles along a busy A road and never had a helmet. Went swimming in the upper reaches of the Clyde and never had water wings or life jacket. It's amazing I survived 😄

[Alan de Enfield]

43 minutes ago, LadyG said:

All riding schools require it, so everyone who has a horse has a helmet.

 

Are you suggesting that everyone who has a horse rides at a riding school ?

 

(Edit for missing letters)

Edited August 11, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Ewan123]

On 02/08/2023 at 14:21, magnetman said:

If I fall in and drown so what? 

Some poor sods would have to spend their time pulling a corpse out of the canal.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Ewan123

[IanD]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I think that most horse riders wear a helmet, it's saved my life.

All riding schools require it, so everyone who has a horse has a helmet.

I also used to ride a motorbike bike without a helmet to dry my hair, but generally you will be going on the road where one is required, it's easier to wear one all the time. I absolutely cannot understand why parents don't buy a helmet when they buy scooters and bikes for their children, it's putting someone else's life in danger, why would they do that?

Folks who think that their actions have no affect on others are pretty immature and can never have been involved in a drowning or other major incident.

Ever wondered why few cyclists in the Netherlands -- where there are *far* more bikes than here -- wear a bike helmet?

 

Because IIRC the government there actually did some research and looked into the statistics, amd found that motorists drove closer to cyclists and more aggressively if they were wearing helmets, and the predicted increase in death/injury rates as a result was bigger then the lives predicted to be saved by wearing helmets.

 

So unlike the knee-jerk response here, the government there does *not* push cyclists to wear helmets.

 

Note that this doesn't mean the same applies to horse riders who are *much* further from the ground, and presumably more likely to fall off for other reasons than cars, so helmets are likely to have a positive benefit overall...

[LadyG]

I used to wear a helmet when cycling, its not difficult,  and the roads are so bad that one might have to shift out from the pavement due to glass or drains, potholes are very dangerous of course, I don't think I worried too much  about cars as I used to sit out a bit from the kerb to force them to take avoiding action if they wanted to pass. 😀

Edited August 11, 2023 by LadyG

[churchward]

3 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

The only trouble with that statement is the proportion of people in the lake wearing life jackets is usually a small proportion anyway. It’s not much more helpful than stating most people who died when driving their car were wearing seat belts. 
 

Agree it is a personal choice. It only becomes society’s when it costs a lot to fix someone. Hence seat belt and helmet legislation. Despite that the number of horse and motorcycle riders not wearing helmets on private land is quite significant. 

In the case of Llyn Tegid those on the periphery of the lake in the few shallow areas won't be wearing buoyancy aids but those venturing out into the lake mostly do. The lake will get beyond a person's depth within 10ft or so from the shore and get deep very quickly from 20ft to 130ft+ Only the Bala Town end of the lake has a shallow beach or the campsite at Llangower

 

It is significant out of those that get in trouble on paddle boards and the like and drown the vast majority (not just most) were not wearing a buoyancy aid. I know the lake extremely well.

 

Here is one example of a tragic incident on the lake

 

Death of former soldier in kayaking tragedy was an accident, inquest told - Wales Online

On 02/08/2023 at 12:50, Ray T said:

 

Yes, we can all be silly and take things to the extreme. When I sailed at Draycote Water sailing club one of the rules was that a wet or dry suit must be worn when sailing in the months of November to March. This was to stave off "Cold Shock." Cold shock response - Wikipedia

So, should it be advocated all boaters must wear dry / wet suits in the winter months when on the boat in case they fall in? 😁

One can get very cold very quickly in a racing dinghy without a wetsuit and other layers.  It is inevitable if you are trying to go fast that you get chucked in now and again and this can happen multiple times in a session.  The combination of going in and getting back on the boat in the cold wind can really create a chill.

 

I have manned rescue boats on Llyn Tegid (Bala Lake) and some people without suitable clothing on can go very blue very quickly in the water.

Edited August 11, 2023 by churchward

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I used to wear a helmet when cycling, its not difficult,  and the roads are so bad that one might have to shift out from the pavement due to glass or drains, potholes are very dangerous of course, I don't think I worried too much  about cars as I used to sit out a bit from the kerb to force them to take avoiding action if they wanted to pass. 😀

You're missing the point -- overtaking cars leave less clearance with helmeted bikers, which means more car-bike collisions.

 

If you want to wear a helmet then feel free, that's your choice if it makes you feel safer.  But in reality it may well be less safe than not wearing one... 😞

[jonathanA]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

You're missing the point -- overtaking cars leave less clearance with helmeted bikers, which means more car-bike collisions.

 

If you want to wear a helmet then feel free, that's your choice if it makes you feel safer.  But in reality it may well be less safe than not wearing one... 😞

75.6% of statistics are made up - just saying....  I think the results of a car/bike collision are never going to be good, but at least a helmet might offer some protection to the head.   so I can't see how your logic stands up 'that it may be well be less safe wearing a helmet'.