Playground for the Rich

[Momac]

32 minutes ago, IanD said:

Boaters pay relatively little for what they get

From a personal perspective I don't agree 

The fees are quite high for people like me who work full time and can only go boating at weekends and holidays . 

 

Folks who are willing and able to spend most of their time on the water may think differently.

 

23 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Plenty of gongoozlers stand around Haywood lock watching the boats go through and distracting boaters.

I am sure people do come, at least in part, to see the boats and especially to see boats using a lock. We have witnessed that many times at the busier spots with good public access like Gunthorpe Lock and Newark Town Lock in our local area.

 

 

[Tonka]

47 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If you had 100 people visiting a canal for a pleasurable walk I wonder how many of them would think boats were important. I bet more of them would think the wildlife was the main thing and one factor with moored boats is they block the view of the wildlife. 

 

Canals don't need many boats at all to survive as pleasure grounds for the masses. 

 

 

 

So why do canals without narrowboat's silt up and decay

[magnetman]

Just now, Tonka said:

So why do canals without narrowboat's silt up and decay

I didn't say no boats I just suggested that significantly fewer would be ok and that they were moving around. 

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Especially scruffy ones

The scruffy masses or the scruffy boats?

[Bargebuilder]

On 11/07/2023 at 12:33, dmr said:

 

Yes, I realised as I typed it was not really correct. My sailing was done in Southampton where some boating is expensive and mostly for the wealthy, but even there there are a few places where it is afordable by an "ordinary person".

 

I sail on the East Coast as well as owning a NB and I agree that lumpy boating can be far cheaper than canal boating.

 

It's easy to buy a really nice 2nd hand cruising yacht for under £20k, often well under. Yachts tend to be shorter and therefore cheaper to keep in a marina and I know of mud berths in Essex where one can moor a boat for £50 per year! There is no annual licence fee, no boat safety scheme costs, no requirement for insurance unless it's required by your marina and no pump-out costs. (but that's for another thread)

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

From a personal perspective I don't agree 

The fees are quite high for people like me who work full time and can only go boating at weekends and holidays . 

 

Folks who are willing and able to spend most of their time on the water may think differently.

 

 Maybe people think that your only paying your CaRT licence and forget about the £1000’s some people have to pay for a decent mooring, also other costs which aren’t related to CaRT. I know this money doesn’t go directly to CaRT but it has to be paid to have a boat in most cases.

 The good news, your positioned at a place where you can use your boat and not dependent on the canals with there 200 year old locks and leaks😂👍

Edited July 13, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tonka]

17 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 Maybe people think that your only paying your CaRT licence and forget about the £1000’s some people have to pay for a decent mooring, also other costs which aren’t related to CaRT. I know this money doesn’t go directly to CaRT but it has to be paid to have a boat in most cases.

 The good news, your positioned at a place where you can use your boat and not dependent on the canals with there 200 year old locks and leaks😂👍

I thought the marina's had to pay CRT a fee depending upon the amount of moorings offered

[magnetman]

My mooring is £12k per year every penny of this goes to the CRT. 

 

There are some arguments for them (the CRT) building more residential moorings but then to be fair it is pretty unusual to find people stupid enough to pay that sort of money to live in a metal box floating on a ditch. 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

29 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I thought the marina's had to pay CRT a fee depending upon the amount of moorings offered

And most Marina’s are leasing the water from CaRT so pay monthly rent to them, my point is that some think that you only pay for a licence and that it’s relatively cheap for what you get. To most there’s a lot more expense then that as @MartynG implies when all fees are added up and to some it’s not relatively cheap as it can be a large percentage of their income with all the add on’s.

Edited July 13, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[DandV]

The continuing increase in the number of licenced boats on the inland waterways suggests that there is still room to increase annual and mooring charges. But raising these charges, and the general rise in inequalities will undoubtedly lead to the  inland boating community to being even less egalitarian. 

The one thing we found attractive of boatingbon your waterways was how egalitarian the moorings were.

Very shiney boats moored between boats where finding the funds for boat maintenance was obviously very constrained.

This is in stark contrast to most land based living where residential areas are now starkly stratified by income. 

At Stoke Bruerne we once had two consecutive conversations. 

One with a gent who was returning from shopping with two large containers of cooking oil.

They were on a significant special, and he used them as chain oil to harvest his fire wood. He extolled the beauty of his recycled computer fan connected to battery and a small  battery and smal solar panel to distribute the heat from his wood burner around his front cabin in winter.

The immediate following conversation was with somebody bemoaning the increased cost of gas for the boiler for their fourteen 2 kw radiators in their house. 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

39 minutes ago, DandV said:

The continuing increase in the number of licenced boats on the inland waterways suggests that there is still room to increase annual and mooring charges. But raising these charges, and the general rise in inequalities will undoubtedly lead to the  inland boating community to being even less egalitarian. 

The one thing we found attractive of boatingbon your waterways was how egalitarian the moorings were.

Very shiney boats moored between boats where finding the funds for boat maintenance was obviously very constrained.

This is in stark contrast to most land based living where residential areas are now starkly stratified by income. 

At Stoke Bruerne we once had two consecutive conversations. 

One with a gent who was returning from shopping with two large containers of cooking oil.

They were on a significant special, and he used them as chain oil to harvest his fire wood. He extolled the beauty of his recycled computer fan connected to battery and a small  battery and smal solar panel to distribute the heat from his wood burner around his front cabin in winter.

The immediate following conversation was with somebody bemoaning the increased cost of gas for the boiler for their fourteen 2 kw radiators in their house. 

 

 

And when was the last time you boated on our waterways? I take it a few years ago and well before COVID lockdown. There may be room to increase licence fees but CaRT can’t increase mooring fees, they can increase their rent on leased Marina’s, which will probably be passed on to moorers, which could cause them to leave and CC. Also not all new boats are going into Marina’s a lot are CCing and I’m seeing more boats leaving Marina’’s to go CCing. Is there room for the increase of boats and can the infrastructure sustain it? doubt it.

Edited July 13, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Arthur Marshall]

34 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

And most Marina’s are leasing the water from CaRT so pay monthly rent to them, my point is that some think that you only pay for a licence and that it’s relatively cheap for what you get. To most there’s a lot more expense then that as @MartynG implies when all fees are added up and to some it’s not relatively cheap as it can be a large percentage of their income with all the add on’s.

In my case, about a quarter of my income goes on the boat. I've reached maximum cost benefit, I think, especially as cruising for any length of time appears to be now impossible. It's been a lot of fun, but it's not being much fun any more.

[Mad Harold]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Boaters pay relatively little for what they get.

If you livaboard and don't have a mortgage or pay rent, then yes, it's pretty decent value.

If you are a leisure boater like most of us,  paying rent or mortgage plus council tax,then canal boating becomes a rather expensive hobby.

Taking into account water shortages and stoppages, I don't think the leisure boater is getting a very good deal.

[DandV]

38 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

And when was the last time you boated on our waterways? I take it a few years ago and well before COVID Lockdown. There may be room to increase licence fees but CaRT can’t increase mooring fees, they can increase their rent on leased Marina’s, which will probably be passed on to moorers, which could cause them to leave and CC. Not all new boats are going into Marina’s a lot are CCing and I’m seeing more boats leaving Marina’’s to go CCing. Is there room for the increase of boats and can the infrastructure sustain it? doubt it.

I was taking a macro view. If demand at current prices is still increasing then there is still room to increase to increase prices.

That is the purely economic view. The social position though is much more complex.

 

The second part of my post, inferred  that a consequence of increasing those fees would almost certainly price a significant number of the existing boating community out, much to their personal detriment, and also decreasing the diversity of the current community. It's colour. 

Some may think that is desirable, with a decline of the scruffies, but I certainly would not like the UK canal community, to trend towards the Cowes yachting community or even our recreational boating community here. 

 

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

16 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

If you livaboard and don't have a mortgage or pay rent, then yes, it's pretty decent value.

If you are a leisure boater like most of us,  paying rent or mortgage plus council tax,then canal boating becomes a rather expensive hobby.

Taking into account water shortages and stoppages, I don't think the leisure boater is getting a very good deal.

A rather expensive hobby yes, but every week spent aboard is perhaps saving you the cost of a holiday elsewhere.

 

How much might one save by not going abroad for 4 weeks, if that is the alternative to owning a boat?

 

In our case, owning a boat is cheaper than going on a couple of cruises each year which for us would be the alternative.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

7 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Not a Mansion, Just this little place in rural Great Bedwyn

 

 

 

let’s hope they got an energy rebate ✊

I expect it’d cost a small fortune to heat that gaff

[MtB]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

My mooring is £12k per year every penny of this goes to the CRT. 

 

Odd, because my CRT mooring includes VAT which goes to the guvvermint.

 

Are resi moorings zero rated or VAT exempt perhaps?

[Momac]

[MtB]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

 

 

Ah so Magnetman has a houseboat, are you claiming?

 

 

[magnetman]

I don't have a houseboat and yes I made an error in my calculations as I think the mooring fee includes VAT. 

 

It is very terrible to contribute to the government coffers in this way. I even pay council tax ! 

 

Of course this all comes out of my allowance so it isn't actually my money but that of those who have deemed it wise that I get looked after while enjoying a life of leisure. 

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

7 hours ago, magnetman said:

I was rich when I was younger.

 

#metoo

 

Then I had a boat.  And another one.  And a child.

 

#notsomuchanymore!

6 hours ago, MartynG said:

I am sure people do come, at least in part, to see the boats and especially to see boats using a lock.

 

I've always insisted that us boaters are the Mickey and Minnie Mouse of the waterways.  The main difference is that Disney pay their staff to perform, but we have to pay to do it!

[Momac]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Ah so Magnetman has a houseboat, are you claiming?

 

 

My post was a cut and paste from  UK gov website. Houseboat moorings are zero rated for VAT.

It was not a claim.

 

Magnetman has clarified its not a houseboat so his mooring fees will include VAT.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by MartynG

[Naughty Cal]

10 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

In my case, about a quarter of my income goes on the boat. I've reached maximum cost benefit, I think, especially as cruising for any length of time appears to be now impossible. It's been a lot of fun, but it's not being much fun any more.

We reached the point of not finding owning a leisure boat value for money a few years ago.

 

It stopped being value for money when finding a visitor mooring becomes an all day job, when lock hours on the tidal locks were cut vastly making arranging a weekend out nigh on impossible and when costs for maintenance and day to day running of the boat suddenly jumped "due to Covid."

 

We had the best years so decided it was time to move on and have a change.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 hours ago, MartynG said:

From a personal perspective I don't agree 

The fees are quite high for people like me who work full time and can only go boating at weekends and holidays . 

 

 

Which reinforces the fact that canals are a bargain for those who are either financially 'rich' or have plenty of time on their hands (non working)

 

Maybe the licence fee should be based on boaters age, work status and size of bank account.

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, MartynG said:

From a personal perspective I don't agree 

The fees are quite high for people like me who work full time and can only go boating at weekends and holidays . 

 

Folks who are willing and able to spend most of their time on the water may think differently.

 

I am sure people do come, at least in part, to see the boats and especially to see boats using a lock. We have witnessed that many times at the busier spots with good public access like Gunthorpe Lock and Newark Town Lock in our local area.

 

 

It might just be that we revert to the traditional 'pay as you use' tolls on which the system was founded. How to do this economically? After all, this is why tolls were abandoned as they became too expensive to collect5 - would be even more so no. However, it might just be possible to combine some of the tech talked about on checking overstayers also to collect tolls every time a boat passes a lock, or certain 'entry' points. 

 

This would be a radical adjustment to the current philosophy of canal - but perhaps more in line with historical origins but for a different market. It might make some of the newer markets squeal, especially those more focussed on a place to live (incidentally we might need to hear from this people who have bought houses at enhanced priced because they are next to a canal and who might see their asset decline if the canal was filled in or ceased to be pretty). However, it does seem on the cards that if the future funding of the canals follows the trajectory set by the current Government and its predecessors (ie anything publicly funded is bad) the a radical change is inevitable - the only question is who will benefit most from it?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mike Todd

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Mike Todd said:

It might just be that we revert to the traditional 'pay as you use' tolls on which the system was founded. How to do this economically? After all, this is why tolls were abandoned as they became too expensive to collect5 - would be even more so no. However, it might just be possible to combine some of the tech talked about on checking overstayers also to collect tolls every time a boat passes a lock, or certain 'entry' points. 

 

This would be a radical adjustment to the current philosophy of canal - but perhaps more in line with historical origins but for a different market. It might make some of the newer markets squeal, especially those more focussed on a place to live (incidentally we might need to hear from this poeple who have bought houses at enhanced priced because they are next to a canal and who might see their asset decline if the canal was filled in or

 

 

When I have suggested this, the argument is that the non-movers (CMers) would move even less to avoid lock-fees.

 

My proposal would be that all licences are at a cost of (say) £10,000 and they you get credited back (say) £3.00 for every mile travelled, refund for being a NB, for having a home mooring, for rivers only etc etc.