Playground for the Rich

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

Perhaps then, the dramatic price inflation of used NBs during the pandemic is about to be followed by a price crash, given the rise in the costs of ownership.

There seams to be more offered for sale  now privately, I don't know about brokers.

 

[magnetman]

Interesting things could happen to canal boat values if property prices start to slide at the same time as cost of running a boat goes up. 

 

There could be a glut. 

On the other hand people priced out of mortgages might think about getting a boat. It is amazing how many people these days have considered living on a boat. This is a recent thing presumably related to the presentation of wide beans as it they were apartments. 

 

 

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, magnetman said:

On the other hand people priced out of mortgages might think about getting a boat. It is amazing how many people these days have considered living on a boat. This is a recent thing presumably related to the presentation of wide beans as it they were apartments. 

 

 

 

Indeed it is. I meet several new people each week and get to chat to them in some depth and its remarkable how many have the idea of living aboard in the back of their mind and have a million questions for me. Only the other week I did a landlord certificate for a couple who turned out to be moving onto their brand new fattie and renting the house.

 

A flight of people becoming new boaters and moving aboard to live rather than cruise could easily account for a reduction in traffic whilst pushing up prices at the same time.

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Did the cost of fuel really affect people using their boats that much?

 

In the 13 years we had NC the cost of fuel was way down the list of expenses. It really wasn't a huge factor in using the boat.

 

In much the same way it didn't affect us with the van. A full tank of fuel at £2 per litre was £180. Now diesel has dropped to £1.40 a litre a full tank is £126. A £54 difference on a weeks holiday is neither here nor there. 

I think it affected the elderly retired boaters more than the younger working boaters or the DINKS boaters. Also when the fuel conscious boaters did go out they didn’t travel far and moored up for longer. This was very evident to see on certain parts of the system and also chatting to CaRT and boaters. The hire boaters had a free reign quite often as fuel prices didn’t matter to them also.

Edited July 14, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Indeed it is. I meet several new people each week and get to chat to them in some depth and its remarkable how many have the idea of living aboard in the back of their mind and have a million questions for me. Only the other week I did a landlord certificate for a couple who turned out to be moving onto their brand new fattie and renting the house.

 

A flight of people becoming new boaters and moving aboard to live rather than cruise could easily account for a reduction in traffic whilst pushing up prices at the same time.

 

 

I wonder if a £10k license fee would change their minds? 😉

 

(assuming they don't have a home mooring and are in a "honeypot" area...)

[magnetman]

27 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Indeed it is. I meet several new people each week and get to chat to them in some depth and its remarkable how many have the idea of living aboard in the back of their mind and have a million questions for me. Only the other week I did a landlord certificate for a couple who turned out to be moving onto their brand new fattie and renting the house.

 

A flight of people becoming new boaters and moving aboard to live rather than cruise could easily account for a reduction in traffic whilst pushing up prices at the same time.

 

 

Economically speaking owning property and renting it out while living on a boat is a no-brainer. IF you definitely want to live on a boat without services.

 

Of course one would have to want to be a landlord but I can't help thinking an awful lot of people on the canal do exactly that. Its not good or bad but it is only an option if living itinerant on boats is easy and cheap. Low licence cost and lax enforcement of law is subsidising and encouraging this behaviour. 

 

Once the licence costs go up and property values go down things could change fast. 

 

I hate the way the engines are always running because of all the mod cons in these boats. Specially in the evenings when you want to relax. 

 

Bloody nuisance ! 

 

Fortunately we don't get them on the country estate but on the London boat I've had wide beans moored opposite running engine until midnight sometimes. 

 

Some people. 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by magnetman

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Once the licence costs go up and property values go down things could change fast. 

 

 

Yes and property is dropping like a stone at the moment, with the outlook set for lots more falls as more and more people with big mortgages on low-rate fixes drop off the end and have to go onto SVR, unable to change lenders due to negative equity/failing affordability criteria.

 

All the money for new fatties is drying up fast I reckon, and all the builders of them must be sh!tting themselves as the order books dry up. 

 

Second hand boats under £50k will probably hold value very well for the foreseeable. 

 

 

 

 

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Which summer? I find myself wondering...

 

 

 

Given they had probably had a "heads up" about the imminent reduction of government funding, I would say this summer.

Edited July 14, 2023 by cuthound
To remove a duplicate word

[magnetman]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes and property is dropping like a stone at the moment, with the outlook set for lots more falls as more and more people with big mortgages on low-rate fixes drop off the end and have to go onto SVR, unable to change lenders due to negative equity/failing affordability criteria.

 

All the money for new fatties is drying up fast I reckon, and all the builders of them must be sh!tting themselves as the order books dry up. 

 

Second hand boats under £50k will probably hold value very well for the foreseeable. 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe Sunak the magic money man will pull a trick out of the hat and win the next election for the Tories. Mortgage relief furlow payments ? 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes and property is dropping like a stone at the moment, with the outlook set for lots more falls as more and more people with big mortgages on low-rate fixes drop off the end and have to go onto SVR, unable to change lenders due to negative equity/failing affordability criteria.

 

All the money for new fatties is drying up fast I reckon, and all the builders of them must be sh!tting themselves as the order books dry up. 

 

Second hand boats under £50k will probably hold value very well for the foreseeable. 

 

 

Or it's also possible that the mortgage/housing problems will make even more people think that selling up (if they already have a house -- or renting it out) and moving onto a new fattie is a good idea.

 

Nobody knows which way this will go, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

The one thing that would definitely push demand for new fatties over the cliff is if they suddenly get hit with a much bigger license fee, especially if they haven't got a home mooring... 😉

[magnetman]

Just now, IanD said:

 

The one thing that would definitely push demand for new fatties over the cliff is if they suddenly get hit with a much bigger license fee, especially if they haven't got a home mooring... 😉

 

I'm sure this has been mooted but thr question is has the idea been booted?

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Given they had probably had a "heads up" about the imminent reductionreduction of government funding, I would say this summer.

 

I hope so too but remain to be convinced. CRT are run more like a bureaucracy than a business, and I think it will take them as long as it takes them regardless of financial pressures.

 

I predict we'll still be asking about it come October. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by MtB
spelling

[IanD]

Just now, magnetman said:

 

I'm sure this has been mooted but thr question is has the idea been booted?

No, only suited... 😉

[Bargebuilder]

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Economically speaking owning property and renting it out while living on a boat is a no-brainer.

Is it really that cut and dried?

How much rent could you get for your house?

Then there are costs involved, house insurance, gas and electrical inspections, ongoing maintenance, rent arrears, deliberate damage, capital gains tax when you eventually sell.

 

The boat you live in has to be paid for, so interest is lost on your savings to that amount (opportunity cost). Boats generally depreciate so you lose more money when you sell. Plus all the usual costs, marina fees, licence, insurance, fuel, pump-out, dry dock and blacking, general maintenance etc.

 

For those living in a modest house, renting it out and buying and living on a NB may not be the wisest choice.

[Mike Todd]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

When I have suggested this, the argument is that the non-movers (CMers) would move even less to avoid lock-fees.

 

My proposal would be that all licences are at a cost of (say) £10,000 and they you get credited back (say) £3.00 for every mile travelled, refund for being a NB, for having a home mooring, for rivers only etc etc.

Not sure why this would ge a problem in a context in which overstaying is rigorously charged. Boaters paying a full licence and not using locks helps reduce maintenance costs. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mike Todd

[MtB]

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Or it's also possible that the mortgage/housing problems will make even more people think that selling up (if they already have a house -- or renting it out) and moving onto a new fattie is a good idea.

 

 

Renting out possibly, but not selling up. Human nature prevents people selling into a falling market, they decide to sit tight and wait it out. This is partly while property prices are so volatile.

 

 

 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Renting out possibly, but not selling up. Human nature prevents people selling into a falling market, they decide to sit tight and wait it out. This is partly while property prices are so volatile.

 

 

Actually lots of people sell -- not just houses, also shares -- when the market is falling because they think if they don't sell *now* it will fall even further. It's not sensible, but then a lot of people aren't... 😉

Edited July 14, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

. Boaters paying a full licence and not using locks helps reduce maintenance costs. 

I wonder how much difference boat traffic makes to the maintenance budget. If you had a 1000 boats going through a flight of locks v 10 boats would the maintenance costs be very different? 

 

I know the CRT often use the term 'boater damage' but this may simply be a euphemism for 'its really old and crumbling'. 

 

 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Actually lots of people sell -- not just houses, also shares -- when the market is falling because they think if they don't sell *now* it will fall even further. It's not sensible, but then a lot of people aren't... 😉

 

Equities yes but property, no. Not in my experience anyway.

 

In a falling market, the market just seizes up as people refuse to sell for less than what it was worth this time last year. 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I wonder how much difference boat traffic makes to the maintenance budget. If you had a 1000 boats going through a flight of locks v 10 boats would the maintenance costs be very different? 

 

I know the CRT often use the term 'boater damage' but this may simply be a euphemism for 'its really old and crumbling'. 

 

 

The recent Caen Hill closure def  was boater damage. 

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Equities yes but property, no. Not in my experience anyway.

 

In a falling market, the market just seizes up as people refuse to sell for less than what it was worth this time last year. 

 

 

Maybe, but don't forget that many homeowners have *never* been in a falling market before because inflation-adjusted prices have been stable or rising for the last 15 years (actual prices rising by more than this), so this will be a nasty "wake-up" call for them, and many may well panic.

 

But again we're just speculating, in the same way as what will happen to fatties.

 

The proof will be what actually happens over the next year or two, and the only certainty is that a lot of people will find themselves paying a lot more for their mortgages... 😞

Edited July 14, 2023 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

The recent Caen Hill closure def  was boater damage. 

We did the entire length of the K&A last year and it is amongst the most poorly maintained canals that we've travelled. Pump failure held us in the Caen Hill flight for a week and there were numerous broken paddles and leaky gates and gates that wouldn't open fully. One lock just above Bristol took just shy of an hour to fill!

 

Of course boats do cause damage, but the problems we encountered were mainly due to neglect and repairs are done on a 'fire fighting' basis.

[ditchcrawler]

43 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Actually lots of people sell -- not just houses, also shares -- when the market is falling because they think if they don't sell *now* it will fall even further. It's not sensible, but then a lot of people aren't... 😉

I think I would be offloading shares in Thames water if I had any

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

If you start from today's license fees, add 30%, bring in length*width pricing, and a "CC surcharge/HM discount", and a "London surcharge", then a big widebeam in Little Venice without a home mooring could easily end up paying a £10k license fee... 😉

Length and width is already in and part of the current licensing fee structure. I can see licences increasing maybe something like this. An increase between 15-35% / 20-40% to current licences, the lower % for a narrow with home mooring, the higher for a non home mooring widebeam and between both for wide with home mooring and narrow without. No London surcharge as it can’t be policed. Historic boats to loose their discount and maybe electric too. All in all, no boats will have that  big a rise to take their licence to £10K. I would love to see these 60-70ft x 14ft monsters get a hefty licence rise, but I don’t see it happening. So let’s wait and see what Summer brings, apart from water shortages, stoppages and just maybe a new license pricing structure.
 It’s not just boaters that think having these monster widebeams on the canal is ridiculous, as this Instagramer highlights, the Narrow is 60ft and the white widebeam 70ft x 14ft.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Momac]

3 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Did the cost of fuel really affect people using their boats that much?

Yes I  think it did in many cases.

A lot of people moderated their use of  their  boat to conserve the fuel they had bought before the price escalated in early 2022.

This year folks don't seem to be using their boats so much and that may be due to other economic factors. The C&RT license fee increases may also be an influence  - folks not licensing (and not going out) if they are in a marina that does not require a license. Or licensing for 3 months instead of 6 months.

 

Obviously there are those who carry on regardless.