Charges or fines ?

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Bee said:

No, living on boats will not solve the housing problem as such but if you (or I or my kids) was stuck it would solve their problem and that is what is happening, many individuals are making individual choices and the result is a problem. 

 

Sorry, but that's another aspect of individual selfishness taking priority over the greater good of society (like non-dom tax evasion). A few thousand more people -- including my children, or yours -- cramming onto the canals in crowded areas would screw them up completely as canals, as opposed to becoming un-navigable cheap linear housing estates. Individual desperation requires sympathy and a solution that fixes the problem, and the canals are not that.

Edited April 12, 2022 by IanD

[Barneyp]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Sorry, but that's another aspect of individual selfishness taking priority over the greater good of society (like non-dom tax evasion). A few thousand more people -- including my children, or yours -- cramming onto the canals in crowded areas would screw them up completely as canals, as opposed to becoming un-navigable cheap linear housing estates. Individual desperation requires sympathy and a solution that fixes the problem, and the canals are not that.

I don't think trying to provide a home for your children can be called being selfish or compared to multi millionaires not paying taxes.

It is beyond the remit of CRT to do anything about the housing crisis, but they are left to deal with the consequences of the governments inaction, which leaves them in a very difficult position in some cases, this shouldn't stop them taking enforcement action against people who are abusing the system and could make alternative choices.

[David Mack]

47 minutes ago, Tuscan said:

Are you sure it’s the housing shortage causing people to  buy cheap boats that’s causing the problem. Milton Keynes and Fenny where these signs have appeared is now the domain of expensive wide beams. Central London has a growing number.

 

43 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

In the city areas where the CM problem is worst (including London and the K&A) the vast majority of the boats are not new expensive or widebeam, as any walk along the towpath will show.

The presence of large numbers of liveaboard boats in London, on the western K&A and elsewhere, has legitimised living aboard as a mainstream choice, rather than just something for hippies, oddballs and eccentrics, a trend encouraged by lifestyle articles in newspapers, magazines, TV and radio and on social media. This in turn has opened up a market for those with a bit more money to join in with more expensive and comfortable (for the liveaboard, if not surrounding boaters) new build widebeams.

[MtB]

53 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

In the city areas where the CM problem is worst (including London and the K&A) the vast majority of the boats are not new expensive or widebeam, as any walk along the towpath will show.

 

 

A walk along the 48hr VMs here (eastern K&A) would reveal three expensive widebeams (one sporting a "Broken down awaiting parts" sign!!) and two narrowboats, all of which have been here about a week.

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by MtB
Add a bit.

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

I don't think trying to provide a home for your children can be called being selfish or compared to multi millionaires not paying taxes.

It is beyond the remit of CRT to do anything about the housing crisis, but they are left to deal with the consequences of the governments inaction, which leaves them in a very difficult position in some cases, this shouldn't stop them taking enforcement action against people who are abusing the system and could make alternative choices.

 

Isn't the definition of "selfish" doing something which is purely for your own advantage but to everyone else's disadvantage? And isn't this true no matter how much sympathy we have for the subject? (or not, in the case of non-dom multimillionaires). Paying taxes is one aspect of this -- anyone is always better off themselves by doing whatever they can do (legally or not) to reduce the tax they pay, but society is worse off because taxes pay for public services like the NHS, police, fire services, support services and so on.

 

One of the fundamental jobs of government -- and society as a whole -- is to try and help people in this position (can't afford a place to live e.g. house or flat) with things like housing policy and benefits. To give a crude comparison, if somebody doesn't have a toilet the right answer is to provide one for them, not allow them to sh*t in the street and then blame them for being disgusting -- which is pretty much where we are with housing policy and cheap boats on the canals... 😞

Edited April 12, 2022 by IanD

[Thomas C King]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

A walk along the 48hr VMs here (eastern K&A) would reveal three expensive widebeams (one sporting a "Broken down awaiting parts" sign!!) and two narrowboats, all of which have been here about a week.

 

Ooh, any chance of naming names? We're on the eastern K&A, leaving to go down to Brentford this weekend. Curious if it's the same ones we regularly saw continuously mooring. If you're on the K&A Facebook group, you get to know that there are some known difficult boaters.

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

The presence of large numbers of liveaboard boats in London, on the western K&A and elsewhere, has legitimised living aboard as a mainstream choice, rather than just something for hippies, oddballs and eccentrics, a trend encouraged by lifestyle articles in newspapers, magazines, TV and radio and on social media. This in turn has opened up a market for those with a bit more money to join in with more expensive and comfortable (for the liveaboard, if not surrounding boaters) new build widebeams.

 

I can't speak for the K&A, but this side of London there are only a small number of new build widebeams, I'm guessing maybe 5%? I'll try and do a count next time I cycle in that way...

 

They may be big and flashy and visible (and obstructive?) but it's the other 95% causing the mooring/congestion problem 😞

Edited April 12, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

..... just something for hippies, oddballs and eccentrics,

 

This video may be useful in identifying the types of boat and boaters under discussion :

 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

57 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

One of the fundamental jobs of government -- and society as a whole -- is to try and help people in this position (can't afford a place to live e.g. house or flat) with things like housing policy and benefits. To give a crude comparison, if somebody doesn't have a toilet the right answer is to provide one for them, not allow them to sh*t in the street and then blame them for being disgusting -- which is pretty much where we are with housing policy and cheap boats on the canals... 😞

Would be nice if true, but it isn't. The fundamental job of any government is defined by itself, and if ours had ever thought it might be to enable it's subjects to have somewhere affordable to live, heat and eat then we wouldn't be talking about this problem in the first place.

It may be a result of deliberate policy or just unforseen consequences, but really the prime purposes of government are security of the state and the economy, what happens to the population is secondary.

Bad laws and unenforceable rules get ignored, and ultimately as more and more people do so, the whole structure of a society breaks down into anarchy, which, in a small scale  is what is happening to the old "respect" culture of canal life.

On a larger scale, it'll be interesting to see what happens to English society as the various costs start biting and the year turns colder, because it's only a scaled up version of what we are grumping about - police cuts and the courts backlog means there's no viable enforcement in the wider world either now. That's probably a debate for the political section though, and therefore not worth having.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

No, living on boats will not solve the housing problem as such but if you (or I or my kids) was stuck it would solve their problem and that is what is happening, many individuals are making individual choices and the result is a problem. 

Fair enough, but we can’t knock them for making that choice. 

I can see some (not referring to you) would be quite pleased to rid the waterways of live aboard boaters completley and use it quite selfishly as a place for a  juant on their boat. 

After all most views on here come from non boaters or the weekend boater. 
 

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

Would be nice if true, but it isn't. The fundamental job of any government is defined by itself, and if ours had ever thought it might be to enable it's subjects to have somewhere affordable to live, heat and eat then we wouldn't be talking about this problem in the first place.

It may be a result of deliberate policy or just unforseen consequences, but really the prime purposes of government are security of the state and the economy, what happens to the population is secondary.

Bad laws and unenforceable rules get ignored, and ultimately as more and more people do so, the whole structure of a society breaks down into anarchy, which, in a small scale  is what is happening to the old "respect" culture of canal life.

On a larger scale, it'll be interesting to see what happens to English society as the various costs start biting and the year turns colder, because it's only a scaled up version of what we are grumping about - police cuts and the courts backlog means there's no viable enforcement in the wider world either now. That's probably a debate for the political section though, and therefore not worth having.

I didn't say it was the *only* job of government (e.g. security), I said it was *one* of them -- or at least, it should be.

 

I forget who said that a good measure of how advanced a society/government is can be taken to be how well it protects its poorer, sick and disadvantaged members. Ours is obviously pretty retarded, then... 😞

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Fair enough, but we can’t knock them for making that choice. 

I can see some (not referring to you) would be quite pleased to rid the waterways of live aboard boaters completley and use it quite selfishly as a place for a  juant on their boat. 

After all most views on here come from non boaters or the weekend boater. 
 

 

Please stop putting words into people's mouths that they never said, or beliefs that they don't hold, or attacking people because of what they are ("not a real boater") -- leave that to the usual suspects 😉

 

As far as I can see nobody here is suggesting that the waterways should be rid of liveaboard boaters, in fact exactly the opposite -- they bring a lot to the canals, certainly compared to the half-deserted desolation of 40 years ago when I first hired a boat.

 

The problem -- and it's only in some areas, like the K&A and London -- is liveaboards who selfishly flout the rules which are put in place to try and keep the canals fairly accessible to all, including liveaboards and hire boaters and continuous cruisers.

 

The fact that they do this because it's cheap and they don't want to move around or find/pay for a home mooring doesn't excuse what they're doing.

Edited April 12, 2022 by IanD

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, Goliath said:

don’t forget before they refuse a license completely they restrict you to a 6 month license and see how you behave. 
 

I don't think they have to but rather that they choose to.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

After all most views on here come from non boaters or the weekend boater. 

 

It'd be a pretty boring, one sided forum if it only had the 'half-dozen' liveaboard members currently on the forum.

 

One of the problems with trying to get any agreement is the various factions all think they are the most important and the various organisations have come about to represent those individual factions.

 

What is really needed is more inclusive discussions not more divisive ones.

 

One could easily argue that the 'weekender boaters' should have much more say than the Liveaboards as there are 6x as many of them

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What is really needed is more inclusive discussions not more divisive ones.

Agreed

I wish more live aboard members would speak up.
Whatever their view. 
Not just the vociferous few who do not live aboard. 
 

There were some interesting comments earlier in the thread from the less vocal. 
 

This particular discussion about over crowding has been cropping up time and time again for years. Would be great to hear some new angles from a wider source of contributor. 
 

I don’t know what the answers are for the long term. I can’t see heavier enforcement and penalties being the solution. 

I can’t see pricing people off the water with additional charges or a higher license fee will solve the problem. The boats will just be replaced by the more  affluent owner and the problem will remain. 

[magnetman]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

The presence of large numbers of liveaboard boats in London, on the western K&A and elsewhere, has legitimised living aboard as a mainstream choice, rather than just something for hippies, oddballs and eccentrics, a trend encouraged by lifestyle articles in newspapers, magazines, TV and radio and on social media. This in turn has opened up a market for those with a bit more money to join in with more expensive and comfortable (for the liveaboard, if not surrounding boaters) new build widebeams.

And probably renting out the house/flat while taking advantage of cheap option of living on a boat on the towpath.

 

The point is that it makes no difference whatsoever to someone doing this whether living on boats is a long term option or not. If it becomes more regulated (which will happen) then they just get rid of the boat take the hit and clear off back to the land. 

 

If the number of people with zero interest in keeping it all nice and sensible increases beyond a certain number then it will all go tits up. 

 

It's an interesting situation to watch. I know CRT can't do much but I think something will happen possibly via some other legislation to knock it on the head.

 

Some people argue that it is an impossible problem to solve but I reckon somewhere along the line someone will work it out. 

 

If one were allowed to live in buses on public roads in city centres there would be a hell of a lot of old buses not going anywhere. 

 

 

ETA my position is that I have lived on boats continuously since April 1994 but do currently have a mooring due to having children. Obviously this makes me some sort of angelic non pisstaking godlike figure and my views arrr probably irreverent. 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by magnetman

[frangar]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

Fair enough, but we can’t knock them for making that choice. 

I can see some (not referring to you) would be quite pleased to rid the waterways of live aboard boaters completley and use it quite selfishly as a place for a  juant on their boat. 

After all most views on here come from non boaters or the weekend boater. 
 

 

 

 

 

Ummm liveaboard boater of 30 years here…..should that make a difference?? 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Please stop putting words into people's mouths that they never said, or beliefs that they don't hold, or attacking people because of what they are ("not a real boater") -- leave that to the usual suspects 😉

I never used the phrase “not a real” boater, so stop putting words into peoples mouths 😉

1 minute ago, frangar said:

Ummm liveaboard boater of 30 years here…..should that make a difference?? 

I guess it just might. 
 

You got a plan?

[GUMPY]

2 hours ago, Goliath said:

Fair enough, but we can’t knock them for making that choice. 

I can see some (not referring to you) would be quite pleased to rid the waterways of live aboard boaters completley and use it quite selfishly as a place for a  juant on their boat. 

After all most views on here come from non boaters or the weekend boater. 

At least three of the people on this forum me and @mrsmelly and @frangar have lived aboard for 25 and 30 years respectively so I think we are all qualified to pass comment even though two of us now live on land.

Towpath squatters are one of the reasons I moved my boat off cart waters along with carts mismanagement.

I watched the video for a few minutes and all I saw was a bunch of freeloaders complaining 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Loddon
Forgot dear old @frangar

[magnetman]

The NBTA is working for CRT to bring to an end the option of cruising around the canal system without having to pay for a mooring.

 

They don't quite know that this is their function but it takes all sorts doesn't it.

 

 

[Barneyp]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Isn't the definition of "selfish" doing something which is purely for your own advantage but to everyone else's disadvantage? And isn't this true no matter how much sympathy we have for the subject? (or not, in the case of non-dom multimillionaires). Paying taxes is one aspect of this -- anyone is always better off themselves by doing whatever they can do (legally or not) to reduce the tax they pay, but society is worse off because taxes pay for public services like the NHS, police, fire services, support services and so on.

 

One of the fundamental jobs of government -- and society as a whole -- is to try and help people in this position (can't afford a place to live e.g. house or flat) with things like housing policy and benefits. To give a crude comparison, if somebody doesn't have a toilet the right answer is to provide one for them, not allow them to sh*t in the street and then blame them for being disgusting -- which is pretty much where we are with housing policy and cheap boats on the canals... 😞

By that definition of selfish (which I agree with), then someone trying to provide a home for their children isn't being selfish as they are doing it for someone else (the children).

We can make judgements about people's decisions to have children when maybe they don't have the means to provide for them, but some people may have been genuinely unlucky and fallen on hard times.

 

Yes it would be good if the government pulled it's finger out and did something about the housing problem, which would remove a lot of the CM's from London and elsewhere, but their not going to.

 

This thread is about what CRT can do or should do, assuming they are going to operate within their remit and within the bounds of the law.

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

At least two of the people on this forum me and @mrsmelly have lived aboard for 25 and 30 years respectively so I think we are both qualified to pass comment even though we both now live on land.

Towpath squatters are one of the reasons I moved my boat off cart waters along with carts mismanagement.

I watched the video for a few minutes and all I saw was a bunch of freeloaders complaining 

The few easy to follow rules re not squatting became more and more abused of late. We, never broke the rules. If we needed to work and stay in one place we got a mooring and broke the residency bit lol 😂

When we left a spot on the towpath, you could not tell we had been there. We never threw bin liners full of excrement in the rubbish bins and many times cced and moved on a mainly daily basis. We didnt see how much piss we could take by staying longer than supposed to. Trouble is that newby boaters of late, mainly in the last 15 to 20 years have poured onto the cut as cheap housing, not as a first choice lifestyle. Its a big shame. The rot has grown alongside You tube and social meeja, both partly responsible.

6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The NBTA is working for CRT to bring to an end the option of cruising around the canal system without having to pay for a mooring.

 

They don't quite know that this is their function but it takes all sorts doesn't it.

 

 

The Never Bloody Travel Anywhere club, another very recent club, formed to take the piss.

[Thomas C King]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The NBTA is working for CRT to bring to an end the option of cruising around the canal system without having to pay for a mooring.

 

They don't quite know that this is their function but it takes all sorts doesn't it.

 

As long as we could still travel, I wouldn't mind paying for a mooring, which we'd hardly ever use. Especially if it put to bed this whole issue. But it's the same as increasing the license fee, which I am fine with as well.

[IanD]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I can't speak for the K&A, but this side of London there are only a small number of new build widebeams, I'm guessing maybe 5%? I'll try and do a count next time I cycle in that way...

 

They may be big and flashy and visible (and obstructive?) but it's the other 95% causing the mooring/congestion problem 😞

So here are some numbers from today for the 10-mile stretch of the GU into Paddington...

 

Total number of moored boats : 340

Number of new-ish build widebeams : 39

Number of boats travelling : 4

 

So slightly more than 10% new widebeams -- this included everything vaguely new-looking, not all shiny, maybe up to 10 years old or so.

 

And liveaboards/moored boats outnumbered those actually cruising by almost 100:1...

 

47 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I never used the phrase “not a real” boater, so stop putting words into peoples mouths 😉

I guess it just might. 
 

You got a plan?

I paraphrased all the other things you said which meant the same thing, it was shorter than repeating them all 😉

Edited April 12, 2022 by IanD

[cuthound]

18 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Lol, I blame the teechers! 

 

Nah, it the proofreaders fault 😂