30 cwt cranes Peak forest canal

[sparrowcycles]

Hi folks, I know this is a bit niche but I'm researching what cranes would have been installed at my wharf in Marple for transhipment to a tramway based here before the locks were built. Records say there was a 3 ton crane (probably for unloading the loaded wagon bodies to waiting chassis) and a 30 cwt one which I believe would be for loading the returning empty wagon bodies as a back load to Bugsworth basin.. 

 

The larger cranes are well documented as 'cantilever jib cranes' and are quite huge things but I have seen no images of any 30 cwt cranes.. Does anyone here have any knowledge of what sort of crane may have been used? 

 

The wharf had a plateway for the tram wagons to run right on the coping stones and in one area there are lots of holes in a very different pattern to the holes for the rails so it is possible that the crane was actually mounted on the stone edge and supported by something further back on the wharf banking.. 

 

Apologies for the oddness of this post, it is just one of those days where my interest in it has popped up and I wanted to ask you all. 

 

S

[jake_crew]

There's the crane at Braunston.   Perhaps somone local could find out its capacity.   Graham perhaps ?

[RLWP]

This crane was on the Little Eaton tramway:

 

 

It unloaded tram wagons into boats.

 

It's unlike most other cranes I've come across, I can't imagine why there would be a 'standard' crane for the job. 

 

Richard

[BEngo]

A derrick type crane could be quite difficult to use for moving boxes from boat to train  and vice versa.  The geometry at one end of the lift is always against you.  The heel of such a crane would want to be close to the water  edge and to the tram tracks, to reduce bending stress in the boom,  and so the base and canal edge would be difficult to support. Derrick cranes are also  not that easy to swivel over more than roughly 90 deg,  without a heavy circular base.  A big heavy circular base is hard to fit in close to water and tram tracks.

 

Richard's picture of a swivel cantilever crane is a device better adapted to the task and it can be mounted further back from the edge whilst still swivelling the load easily betwixt train and boat. The generally triangular shape reduces the load in the boom and increases the operating radius, so a large base can be fitted in.   The shape also allows for counterbalance to take side load off the pivot.

 

There are undoubtedly other ways to skin the cat though.

 

N

 

[zenataomm]

1 hour ago, RLWP said:

This crane was on the Little Eaton tramway:

 

 

It unloaded tram wagons into boats.

 

It's unlike most other cranes I've come across, I can't imagine why there would be a 'standard' crane for the job. 

 

Richard

A brief and pointless sojourn off topic, for which I apologies.

The Little Eaton as it looks now.

 

[Ray T]

Crane at Audulem and at Fradley.

 

The crane on rails at Braunston Marina was originally at Braunston bottom lock.

There is also a crane by the dry dock.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ray T

[TheBiscuits]

I assume you've seen the old pictures of Black Wharf?

 

https://visitmarple.co.uk/photos/displayimage.php?album=32&pid=852

 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Ray T said:

Crane at Audulem and at Fradley.

 

The crane on rails at Braunston Marina was originally at Braunston bottom lock.

There is also a crane by the dry dock.

 

Noting that the Audlem crane, and its companion at Farmers Bridge are probably LNWR railway cranes, re-erected by BW alongside the canal around 1970. There's a thread about it on here somewhere.

[36national]

There are the remains of what I assume was a crane on New Mills boatyard. The upright looks similar to the one in RLWP's picture. Sorry don't have a photo but you probably know about it anyway. Related: I was wandering about in the woods just downstream from Swizzels between the canal and the railway and there are remains of a stone structure in there, low, flat top  bout 2 meters wide with a gentle incline. Higher than the towpath so nothing to do with the embankment. possibly  tramway but I've no idea if there is a record of anything in that area. Any ideas?

[sparrowcycles]

6 hours ago, RLWP said:

This crane was on the Little Eaton tramway:

 

 

It unloaded tram wagons into boats.

 

It's unlike most other cranes I've come across, I can't imagine why there would be a 'standard' crane for the job. 

 

Richard

 

Yes that is a cantilever jib crane, probably the same tonnage as the one that was at mine. The Peak forest canal and the Derby canal were both engineered by Benjamin outram so he seemed to use the same equipment on both but I can't find any images of a smaller crane.. 

 

You can see how huge that one is! 

[sparrowcycles]

3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

I assume you've seen the old pictures of Black Wharf?

 

https://visitmarple.co.uk/photos/displayimage.php?album=32&pid=852

 

Yes I've seen that photo and it is my first choice at the moment for recreating a crane at mine. 

 

It was built about 50 years later than my wharf so I do feel it's more advanced than the original 30cwt one would have been. 

[BilgePump]

6 hours ago, RLWP said:

This crane was on the Little Eaton tramway:

 

 

It unloaded tram wagons into boats.

 

It's unlike most other cranes I've come across, I can't imagine why there would be a 'standard' crane for the job. 

 

Richard

There's a big pillar like thing just like the upright of that pictured crane in Bugsworth upper basin.  Was that something similar? Haven't got my pamphlet to hand.

[sparrowcycles]

5 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

There's a big pillar like thing just like the upright of that pictured crane in Bugsworth upper basin.  Was that something similar? Haven't got my pamphlet to hand.

Yes the pillar at buggy and the one at new mills (plus ones at Hyde, Bollington and others) were all from cantilever jib cranes.. 

 

I'd love to explore some of the lost wharves of the Peak forest

[RLWP]

Most old cranes had a post that they pivoted on, no mater what the upper parts looked like

 

 

Richard

[36national]

Theres a wharf about halfway between Disley and New Mills a length of wash wall and couple of mooring rings, enough for one boat. Its just a field you think what could it possibly have served. Hmmmm I need to top up my field with soil so ill get some brought in by boat. 

[MtB]

While we ar doing cranes, here is a wooden one restored on the K&A, at Burbage Wharf:

 

 

[PaulJ]

Just now, MtB said:

While we ar doing cranes, here is a wooden one restored on the K&A, at Burbage Wharf:

 

 

I was just looking for my pic of that one..

[sparrowcycles]

39 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Most old cranes had a post that they pivoted on, no mater what the upper parts looked like

 

 

Richard

Yeah but a 12ft tall oak post with iron bands is rather distinctive 

[Ian Mac]

There were cranes on the Ashton near Copperas Lane, near Meadow St and also on the Peak at Hyde, these will be the sort of style you require. There are pictures of all three floating around on the interweb.

 

[magnetman]

Different region but this is the crane at Dapdune wharf on the Wey navigations.

 

Mounted on a wheeled base. 

 

 

(Image stolen from the internet)

[BilgePump]

14 hours ago, sparrowcycles said:

Yes I've seen that photo and it is my first choice at the moment for recreating a crane at mine. 

 

It was built about 50 years later than my wharf so I do feel it's more advanced than the original 30cwt one would have been. 

Just seen the highlighted word this morning. Had only registered 'researching' from the original post. This sounds like a fantastic project for you to be thinking of doing. It reminds me of Dibnah's pit-head construction, but your crane would be in an original authentic location. Agree that it would be fascinating to know more and explore some of the lost features of the canal.

[sparrowcycles]

9 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

There were cranes on the Ashton near Copperas Lane, near Meadow St and also on the Peak at Hyde, these will be the sort of style you require. There are pictures of all three floating around on the interweb.

 

Thanks Ian, I do have a pamphlet on cranes of the Peak forest which shows them but they're the larger 3ton ones. 

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Different region but this is the crane at Dapdune wharf on the Wey navigations.

 

Mounted on a wheeled base. 

 

 

(Image stolen from the internet)

 

I'd love one of these! 

[Derek R.]

Pretty poor picture, but show the Aylesbury basin crane as was. I do believe this crane was moved from elsewhere after the old sheds were demolished and the arm end filled to make way for Kingfisher house. Fixed base, wooden post, and it might have a second support pole.

 

 

It's bleak place today:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8139001,-0.8085861,3a,71.1y,269.44h,86.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipMon6cG4RICO6WRQmeDoc5eMobnpxHjrmegyXSc!2e10!3e11!7i5376!8i2688?hl=en

[sparrowcycles]

1 hour ago, Derek R. said:

Pretty poor picture, but show the Aylesbury basin crane as was. I do believe this crane was moved from elsewhere after the old sheds were demolished and the arm end filled to make way for Kingfisher house. Fixed base, wooden post, and it might have a second support pole.

 

 

It's bleak place today:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8139001,-0.8085861,3a,71.1y,269.44h,86.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipMon6cG4RICO6WRQmeDoc5eMobnpxHjrmegyXSc!2e10!3e11!7i5376!8i2688?hl=en

Thanks, that could well be the sort of thing that was at the wharf.. I'll see if I can find other pictures to see how it was supported. 

 

The main thing with the land at my wharf is that it's really quite long and thin, so with the tramway tracks there isn't much room for a massive base. 

[RLWP]

2 hours ago, Derek R. said:

Pretty poor picture, but show the Aylesbury basin crane as was. I do believe this crane was moved from elsewhere after the old sheds were demolished and the arm end filled to make way for Kingfisher house. Fixed base, wooden post, and it might have a second support pole.

 

 

It's bleak place today:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8139001,-0.8085861,3a,71.1y,269.44h,86.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipMon6cG4RICO6WRQmeDoc5eMobnpxHjrmegyXSc!2e10!3e11!7i5376!8i2688?hl=en

 

I think that sort of crane would have been in a transhipment shed:

 

 

Notice the pin at the top of the post that fits into a socket in the rafters. The one at Aylesbury has had a separate post fitted to provide a socket, this limits the swing of the crane. Also, note the overhead wheel to keep the platform clear

 

A tramway crane would have all of it's mechanism at ground level

 

Richard