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Rules regarding how far you move your boat.


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4 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

(a) maximum stay of 14 days in one 'place' (and remember that no satisfactory definition of place has been found)

 

(b) boaters without a home mooring must engage at all times in a bona fide navigation, making progress around the navigable system.

 

(c) apart from the 14 day (or less if signed) rule, everything else is dependent on the boater convincing The Board (ie CaRT) that they are compliant. Originally, the Board was the last level of appeal on the matter but today there are generally more opportunities to challenge such bodies, but the principle remains the same: the Board's decision if the effective one, subject to them complying with any other more general legislation (human rights, equality and diversity, reasonable admin etc)

 

 

 

This information is well out of date. Due to various challenges CRT have progressively eased the rules on CCing and made "local" continuous cruising acceptable. I can't remember the "recommended" distance but its something very small like 20km, but this is the cruising range rather than total distance traveled. CRT have also said that hopping between a couple of spots and then occasionally doing a long distance trip would be unlikely to satisfy their requirements.

 

I suspect they made this distance slightly greater the length of the "Western End" of the K&A thus forcing boaters to go "up the Hill" onto the long pound from time to time ?

 

................Dave

 

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51 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

This information is well out of date. Due to various challenges CRT have progressively eased the rules on CCing and made "local" continuous cruising acceptable. I can't remember the "recommended" distance but its something very small like 20km, but this is the cruising range rather than total distance traveled. CRT have also said that hopping between a couple of spots and then occasionally doing a long distance trip would be unlikely to satisfy their requirements.

 

I suspect they made this distance slightly greater the length of the "Western End" of the K&A thus forcing boaters to go "up the Hill" onto the long pound from time to time ?

 

................Dave

 

 

London Enforcement Manager Simon Cadek sent an email to a boater who was warned that they were on course for failing their six month restricted licence, telling them what they would need to do to pass.

The email is on public record as part of advice to boaters in the London Boaters Facebook group and dates from the end of 2016.


When we are looking at boat movements we are looking for characteristics of bona fide navigation, these fall roughly into four categories:


1) Range: by range we mean the furthest points a boat has travelled on the network, not merely the total distance travelled. While the BW act does not stipulate what that distance is the Trust has previously said that anyone travelling a range of less than say 20 miles (32km) would struggle to satisfy the Trust that they are engaged in bona fide navigation and that normally we would expect a greater range.
For the avoidance of doubt, a small number of long journeys over a short period of time, followed or preceded by cruising in a small are of the network would not generally satisfy the Trust that you are engaged in bona fide navigation.
 

2) Overstaying: we look to see how often boats overstay, either the 14 day limit on the main length of the canal, or shorter periods where local signage dictates, for example short stay visitor moorings.
While we are flexible with the occasional overstay from most boaters due to breakdown, illness or other emergencies, we will look at the overall pattern balanced with range and movement pattern in order to form a view.
Overstay reminders are issued when a boat is seen in the same area for more than 14 days. While we are unable to say how far you need to travel each time you move, we would advise that you normally travel further than a few km each time.
This will prevent you from getting reminders and depending on the length of other trips you make and how many times you turn back on yourself, should increase your overall range over the course of your licence.
 

3) Movement: Continuous Cruiser Licences are intended for bona fide (genuine) navigation around the network, rather than for a boat to remain in one mooring spot, place neighbourhood or area.
We would expect boats on these licences to move around the network such that they don’t gravitate back to favoured areas too often i.e. in a way that it’s clear to us that they’re living in a small area of the waterway.

4) The basic principle of this is that these licences are not intended for living in an area and if it looks like a boat is habitually returning to a particular part of the waterway then this would not generally satisfy the Trust.


 

Within an acceptable range we’d expect a genuine movement, so for example it would not satisfy the Trust if a boat went on a 60 mile trip during the course of say two weeks, then returned to cruise in an area of say 5 miles the remainder of the time (figures are examples only).
Generally speaking, the smaller the range the less we’d expect to see boats back at the same locations. Of course people need to turn around and they’re perfectly free to re-visit places they have been to before, it’s living in a small area on this kind of licence that would cause a problem.

 

 

 

But, then the rules are different for Boaters with school age children, following a constituant raising the question of equality with her MP, who raised it with C&RT who agreed on slightly differing 'rules' :

 

Copy of letter from R Parry to the MP, (confirming that a movement of 3 miles  - 5km - during term times was acceptable), and an example from a presentation of what he would consider adequate movements

 

 

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Edited by Alan de Enfield
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But this thread isn't about CCing, it's about what you do as a home moorer. There's only two reasons to have a mooring that I can see, one is to live on near your job, kid's school etc, and the other is to keep it somewhere while your home is somewhere else. 

The former won't travel much, that's not what it's for, and the latter will either be cruising round on holiday, or nipping out and back on short trips  both of which are fine. The t&cs simply don't cause a problem in either case.

As far as the complexity of CCing goes, it's really rather simple. You've got to satisfy the Board. Every case is different, so there are no hard and fast rules, just guidelines which may or may not apply and which may change on a whim or as circumstances alter,  or simply as too many people push the boundaries.

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

But this thread isn't about CCing, it's about what you do as a home moorer. There's only two reasons to have a mooring that I can see, one is to live on near your job, kid's school etc, and the other is to keep it somewhere while your home is somewhere else. 

The former won't travel much, that's not what it's for, and the latter will either be cruising round on holiday, or nipping out and back on short trips  both of which are fine. The t&cs simply don't cause a problem in either case.

 

 

I was under the misunderstanding (?) that with the new T&Cs, a Hmer became a CCer the moment they untied their lines and then had to comply with the CCrules.

 

Leaving your mooring and scuttling up and down a short length of canal is no longer allowed for a Hmer, unless they go back to their mooring for the night in between 'scuttles'.

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15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I was under the misunderstanding (?) that with the new T&Cs, a Hmer became a CCer the moment they untied their lines and then had to comply with the CCrules.

 

Leaving your mooring and scuttling up and down a short length of canal is no longer allowed for a Hmer, unless they go back to their mooring for the night in between 'scuttles'.

 

Wouldn't it be a bit difficult to slap a no-compliance accusation on a boater, out for the weekend, up and down a stretch? The canal would need to be patrolled endlessly by CRT. Over what period of time is spotting valid, between one logging and the next. I should think 14 days minimum.

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

London Enforcement Manager Simon Cadek sent an email to a boater who was warned that they were on course for failing their six month restricted licence, telling them what they would need to do to pass.

The email is on public record as part of advice to boaters in the London Boaters Facebook group and dates from the end of 2016.


When we are looking at boat movements we are looking for characteristics of bona fide navigation, these fall roughly into four categories:


1) Range: by range we mean the furthest points a boat has travelled on the network, not merely the total distance travelled. While the BW act does not stipulate what that distance is the Trust has previously said that anyone travelling a range of less than say 20 miles (32km) would struggle to satisfy the Trust that they are engaged in bona fide navigation and that normally we would expect a greater range.
For the avoidance of doubt, a small number of long journeys over a short period of time, followed or preceded by cruising in a small are of the network would not generally satisfy the Trust that you are engaged in bona fide navigation.
 

2) Overstaying: we look to see how often boats overstay, either the 14 day limit on the main length of the canal, or shorter periods where local signage dictates, for example short stay visitor moorings.
While we are flexible with the occasional overstay from most boaters due to breakdown, illness or other emergencies, we will look at the overall pattern balanced with range and movement pattern in order to form a view.
Overstay reminders are issued when a boat is seen in the same area for more than 14 days. While we are unable to say how far you need to travel each time you move, we would advise that you normally travel further than a few km each time.
This will prevent you from getting reminders and depending on the length of other trips you make and how many times you turn back on yourself, should increase your overall range over the course of your licence.
 

3) Movement: Continuous Cruiser Licences are intended for bona fide (genuine) navigation around the network, rather than for a boat to remain in one mooring spot, place neighbourhood or area.
We would expect boats on these licences to move around the network such that they don’t gravitate back to favoured areas too often i.e. in a way that it’s clear to us that they’re living in a small area of the waterway.

4) The basic principle of this is that these licences are not intended for living in an area and if it looks like a boat is habitually returning to a particular part of the waterway then this would not generally satisfy the Trust.


 

Within an acceptable range we’d expect a genuine movement, so for example it would not satisfy the Trust if a boat went on a 60 mile trip during the course of say two weeks, then returned to cruise in an area of say 5 miles the remainder of the time (figures are examples only).
Generally speaking, the smaller the range the less we’d expect to see boats back at the same locations. Of course people need to turn around and they’re perfectly free to re-visit places they have been to before, it’s living in a small area on this kind of licence that would cause a problem.

 

 

 

This rather sounds like somebody relatively new making it up as they go along.

Point 1 appears to somewhat contradict points 3 and 4, though this 20 miles is a minimum figure plucked out of the air, and does not mean that 21 miles is ok.

 

I assume that a home moorer when off the mooring is expected to behave like a CC'er, but not to navigate a significant part of the system?

 

I suspect a lot of the initial warnings are generated by computer based on sightings, if this is the case it would be interesting to know what the algorithm is.

 

My advice is to go boating and not to take the p***s.

 

..............Dave

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, IanD said:

Never said it was. Suggest you read what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote... ?

Ah but it is law - Contract Law.

 

Some folk tend to forget that much legislation is couched in quite general terms, allowing - in the end - judges to use their skill to make a judgement6 on what is fair and just. Hence, even though something like the CC 'rules' are not specifically set out on the face of an Act does not mean that they are unenforceable by legal action.

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

But this thread isn't about CCing, it's about what you do as a home moorer. There's only two reasons to have a mooring that I can see, one is to live on near your job, kid's school etc, and the other is to keep it somewhere while your home is somewhere else. 

The former won't travel much, that's not what it's for, and the latter will either be cruising round on holiday, or nipping out and back on short trips  both of which are fine. The t&cs simply don't cause a problem in either case.

As far as the complexity of CCing goes, it's really rather simple. You've got to satisfy the Board. Every case is different, so there are no hard and fast rules, just guidelines which may or may not apply and which may change on a whim or as circumstances alter,  or simply as too many people push the boundaries.

Exactly so - when CaRT state an acceptable cruising pattern eg 20 miles range, they are not inventing a new law. What they are saying is what a boater is likely to have to do in order to 'convince The Board'  that they have made a bona fide navigation. It is the convincing of the Board that is the legal rule,.

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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

Wouldn't it be a bit difficult to slap a no-compliance accusation on a boater, out for the weekend, up and down a stretch? The canal would need to be patrolled endlessly by CRT. Over what period of time is spotting valid, between one logging and the next. I should think 14 days minimum.

 

 

As I understand it (and as far as I know this has not been tested in court) there remains the significant difference in terms of bona fide navigation in that a CC is expected to be making reasonable progress around the system but an HM may go out and return as often as they wish (or not) and for whatever distance but that they are still subject to the same restrictions regarding the length of stay at any particular 'place'. I seem to recall it being said, officially, that as soon as a boater returns to their home mooring then the clock is reset. (even though I am not sure what that means!

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9 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

It used to be said of certain shops (think Bond Street) that if you have to ask the price the you cannot afford it.

 

Much the same, it seems to me, to apply to cruising/mooring rules (aka expectations): if you have to ask if your hoped-for pattern is acceptable then you already know that it is not. 

 

This is made even more likely since CaRT are only able to pursue the most egregious cases and anything that even begins to look like an acceptable pattern will be accepted. Those who seek to have a legal rule on how much they have to travel are more often than not those who want it to be as small as possible - there are a few calls from those who want to set it much higher, more consistent with an actual cruising pattern. However, as things stand at the moment there is little chance of there being new legislation and therefore we are all stuck(?) with what exists which pretty much comes down to:

 

(a) maximum stay of 14 days in one 'place' (and remember that no satisfactory definition of place has been found)

 

(b) boaters without a home mooring must engage at all times in a bona fide navigation, making progress around the navigable system.

 

(c) apart from the 14 day (or less if signed) rule, everything else is dependent on the boater convincing The Board (ie CaRT) that they are compliant. Originally, the Board was the last level of appeal on the matter but today there are generally more opportunities to challenge such bodies, but the principle remains the same: the Board's decision if the effective one, subject to them complying with any other more general legislation (human rights, equality and diversity, reasonable admin etc)

 

In other words, if you have any doubt in your mind that your cruising  pattern is or is not compliant then you had best assume that it is not. If you cannot convince yourself, what chance do you think you have of convincing The Board? As others have discovered, once you come onto the Enforcement Radar, life can become quite difficult if you do not accept that you are wrong.

Thanks Mike,  very articulate and informative. The picture is getting clearer each day.

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8 hours ago, IanD said:

It keeps getting repeated that a past civil court verdict by a judge meant that a boat with a home mooring wasn't bound to use it, and that though they still had to go by the "14 days in one place" ruling like CCers, unlike CCers they didn't have to meet the "bona fide navigation" rule and could therefore shuttle backwards and forwards between two places rather that having to go on a journey round multiple places of a length sufficient to "satisfy the board" that they were cruising. This case has been posted many times, usually by the same person ?

 

CART recently updated their rules to close this loophole and apply the same "bona fide cruising" requirements to boats with a home mooring. I'm sure somebody will be along to say that they can't legally do this because of the judge's finding, and then somebody else will point out that a civil case does not form UK case law and could be decided differently if a similar case ever came up again -- but the upshot is, the new CART rules say you have to follow pretty much the same rules as CCers, except you can stay at your home mooring as long as you like.

 

As Mike says, people asking this question are not usually doing it because they want to cruise the canals and are worried about being unfairly accused of breaking the rules, they're usually wanting to cruise in one small area -- clearly against the spirit and letter of the rules -- and are trying to find out how far they can push this and still get away with it, often without even having a home mooring.

 

Most boaters not trying to bend the rules don't like people doing this, because if too many do it the likely consequence is that CART will tighten up the rules further, and more "honest" cruisers will be impacted as well as the rule-benders.

 

If the OP is genuinely wanting to know what the limits are with the intention of staying safely outside the limits rather than seeing how far they can push inside them, Mike's advice is good -- if you're worried about whether you're meeting the rules, you're probably not...

Great news, thank you, answers the question perfectly.

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8 hours ago, IanD said:

It keeps getting repeated that a past civil court verdict by a judge meant that a boat with a home mooring wasn't bound to use it, and that though they still had to go by the "14 days in one place" ruling like CCers, unlike CCers they didn't have to meet the "bona fide navigation" rule and could therefore shuttle backwards and forwards between two places rather that having to go on a journey round multiple places of a length sufficient to "satisfy the board" that they were cruising. This case has been posted many times, usually by the same person ?

 

CART recently updated their rules to close this loophole and apply the same "bona fide cruising" requirements to boats with a home mooring. I'm sure somebody will be along to say that they can't legally do this because of the judge's finding, and then somebody else will point out that a civil case does not form UK case law and could be decided differently if a similar case ever came up again -- but the upshot is, the new CART rules say you have to follow pretty much the same rules as CCers, except you can stay at your home mooring as long as you like.

 

As Mike says, people asking this question are not usually doing it because they want to cruise the canals and are worried about being unfairly accused of breaking the rules, they're usually wanting to cruise in one small area -- clearly against the spirit and letter of the rules -- and are trying to find out how far they can push this and still get away with it, often without even having a home mooring.

 

Most boaters not trying to bend the rules don't like people doing this, because if too many do it the likely consequence is that CART will tighten up the rules further, and more "honest" cruisers will be impacted as well as the rule-benders.

 

If the OP is genuinely wanting to know what the limits are with the intention of staying safely outside the limits rather than seeing how far they can push inside them, Mike's advice is good -- if you're worried about whether you're meeting the rules, you're probably not...

HHJ Halbert's remarks during the Mayers case were an "orbiter dictum" and not part of the judgement. They do not set a precedent for future cases. Agree with the rest, BTW! 

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Can't imagine they're going to waste time and money pursuing people that like to take regular trips up and down the canal their mooring's on and stay at all their favourite villages in the area, as opposed to someone arguing they can stay within a small stretch of Regents Canal because they've got a mooring on the Lancaster

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10 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

As I understand it (and as far as I know this has not been tested in court) there remains the significant difference in terms of bona fide navigation in that a CC is expected to be making reasonable progress around the system but an HM may go out and return as often as they wish (or not) and for whatever distance but that they are still subject to the same restrictions regarding the length of stay at any particular 'place'. I seem to recall it being said, officially, that as soon as a boater returns to their home mooring then the clock is reset. (even though I am not sure what that means!

 

I think the CC rules are only realistically going to apply, if a moorer is out for an extended period of time; months. For the weekend boater or the two-week holiday boater, CC rules will never be an issue. Unless deciding to stop at a time-limited mooring, a short-trip boater can park up for a maximum of 14 days; no problem. The idea of bona fide navigation doesn't really begin to have much meaning for the shot-trip leisure boater, out and back in less than 14 days.

 

An outward-bound journey could last a week, for argument's sake, moor for 14 days; return journey with stops, another two weeks. Having a home mooring creates limits, on what could be realistically expected, to fulfil the description of bona fide navigation; what is possible in a limited time, with a need to return to a definite point.  

 

It is easier to consider the requirement to CC, for home moorers, if the moorer uses a ghost mooring, having no real intention of using the mooring. 

 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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OP's situation sounds like the way I've mostly gone boating for the last fifteen years, and not had any problems.

 

Up until a few years ago parents had a narrowboat in a marina. I'd often take it out on my own round the year, only a few miles along the canal and moor up for four or five days. Then take it back and go home for a bit. Always the same handful of favourite spots near a couple of the villages. One winter I had to stay with it for three weeks out on the towpath stranded on the end of a line of winter moorings with alternator/engine problem, only half a mile from home base. CaRT were fine about it.

 

When that boat went and shortly afterwards I got a tupperware, I took what was effectively a  ghost mooring (Nantwich) about forty locks away from where I launched the boat (upper Macclesfield) I didn't go to the mooring but spent two months heading away from it over twelve miles of a lock free section (5x fortnightly movements of 2+ miles), leaving the boat in my usual favourite towpath mooring spots up to Whaley Bridge, turned round heading back towards the home mooring, and spent another two months getting back to the launch spot, by which time I'd found a suitable short mooring on the Macc, which was what I'd been waiting for. If I hadn't managed to find a mooring on that stretch I would have had to continue on down Bosley locks towards the registered mooring, and only once I'd got to it and stayed there would I have been able to turn around and come back up to the stretch where I wanted to be.

 

Same applies to that new mooring, I can go back to the same places I've always been but would need to be moving in a progressive line of travel away from or back towards the mooring if the boat is going to be out for more than two weeks but an overnight return to home mooring seems to be enough to reset the clock. Considering that the whole lock free section can be covered in a good morning or afternoon, that's no real issue. The boat stays on its home mooring almost all the time I'm not with it.

 

I'm sure that if you had a home mooring in one place and basically spent 13 days out of 14 away from it with the boat hogging the same nearby towpath sweet-spot then I think that pattern would not only fail to satisfy the board but tick off fellow canal users, a lot. However, if you want to go away from your mooring, closer to the local pub on the towpath most Saturday afternoons, you shouldn't have any problems. It's what a lot of people I know do. As already noted, there is always the danger of getting logged repeatedly in the same spot in a way that makes it look to their systems that you haven't returned to base when you have, so maybe best just to keep a basic log of boat movements in case you need to state your case, but so far I've never been asked.

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23 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

OP's situation sounds like the way I've mostly gone boating for the last fifteen years, and not had any problems.

 

But, remember that it has only been stated in the new T&Cs (that from 1/6/21) a Hmer but follow exactly the same rules as a CCer.

It was not a requirement in previous T&Cs.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It was not a requirement in previous T&Cs.

It was not a stated requirement in the previous T&Cs, but as a matter of practice, doing so would keep you off the enforcement officer's radar.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But, remember that it has only been stated in the new T&Cs (that from 1/6/21) a Hmer but follow exactly the same rules as a CCer.

It was not a requirement in previous T&Cs.

 I wasn't going to argue with them that continuously pootling around a stretch forty locks from a ghost mooring wasn't against T&Cs somehow and would certainly be outside the spirit. That was why my movements away and back towards it over four months were what I'd see as the bare minimum, two miles or so every fortnight, in a direction of travel. I just hope that the clarified T&Cs aren't used as a blunt instrument that penalises those weekend cruisers with a home mooring who by their very pattern of use don't put great strain on the infrastructure. 

 

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I’m sure if you follow the terms and conditions you will be fine. It’s only if you attempt to follow the relevant act of Parliament you will get into trouble.

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1 hour ago, BilgePump said:

 I wasn't going to argue with them that continuously pootling around a stretch forty locks from a ghost mooring wasn't against T&Cs somehow and would certainly be outside the spirit. That was why my movements away and back towards it over four months were what I'd see as the bare minimum, two miles or so every fortnight, in a direction of travel. I just hope that the clarified T&Cs aren't used as a blunt instrument that penalises those weekend cruisers with a home mooring who by their very pattern of use don't put great strain on the infrastructure. 

 

 

I don't think CRT would have a cat in hell's chance of proving non-compliance, given the very restricted distances covered by a weekend boater. And watching boats in and out of a marina is not a known practice. 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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We are moored at the top of the hill, Rochdale canal, if we come down to Hebden we may often bring the boat back slowly, leaving it a couple of weeks before moving again, 4 or 5 stops along the way. Not had any problems, a couple of short overstays due to illness were soon sorted out. 

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6 hours ago, Midnight said:

I think those who stick to the rules don't worry too much about the new T&Cs  

That's not really helpful! The issue is that the 'rules' are far from clear even if the intent is clear. As a result it is a field day for those who want to sail as close to the wind as they can get.

 

What you are probably saying is that those who stick to your personal interpretation of the rules don't have much to worry about from the T&C's.

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

That's not really helpful! The issue is that the 'rules' are far from clear even if the intent is clear. As a result it is a field day for those who want to sail as close to the wind as they can get.

 

What you are probably saying is that those who stick to your personal interpretation of the rules don't have much to worry about from the T&C's.

The problem is if you try to give clear definitive rules e.g. how far apart places are then a large proportion of boaters, even ones it doesn't affect, scream " you can't do that".

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6 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

I don't think CRT would have a cat in hell's chance of proving non-compliance, given the very restricted distances covered by a weekend boater. And watching boats in and out of a marina is not a known practice. 

 

 

No, but they do regularly go round marinas number checking so they do sometimes know when a boat has been back to base, and also what dates it wasn't there.

Edited by Alway Swilby
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3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

That's not really helpful! The issue is that the 'rules' are far from clear even if the intent is clear. As a result it is a field day for those who want to sail as close to the wind as they can get.

 

What you are probably saying is that those who stick to your personal interpretation of the rules don't have much to worry about from the T&C's.

I wasn't intending to be helpful just pointing out if you stick within the spirit of the guidance there's nothing of concern in the new T&Cs.

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