magpie patrick Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) Hi Folks - some hypothetical thinking on a practical matter. At the moment most, of not all boats on UK water dispose of grey water (Washing up, shower etc) over the side, but I can foresee that in some pristine environments (introducing navigation on a chalk river for example) this might be undesirable and bordering on unacceptable. so I was pondering grey water storage in much the same way as boats now have black water (sewage) storage now. Thinking aloud: First, the practicality of storage - logically boats only create grey water at the rate they consume fresh water, probably less as some of the fresh water is used for drinking, and fresh water has to be stored somewhere so in theory storage of the grey water takes no more room and on most boats finding space wouldn't be a problem, although retrofitting a tank might be. Then, disposal - presumably we'd need disposal points similar to elsan and pump out - here's where the sticking point comes. Because I can't think of a navigation authority the requires or even encourages storage of grey water, I can't think of a single example of a disposal point for grey water. IF an elsan point is connected to the sewer that could be used, but one connected to a sceptic tank would have a huge extra demand placed on it. So what I'm fishing for is ideas on disposal, and also whether there are any places anywhere (anywhere in the world) that require grey water storage? Edited December 15, 2020 by magpie patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Interesting question. Certainly in the caravan and motorhome worlds, storage of grey water is very much the norm and anyone who lets their sink drain directly onto the pitch is often looked at with disdain. When I've informed those people what boaters do, they're typically appalled! Most people assume that boats all store their grey water and take it to a drain somewhere. I do remember passing a stretch on the canal (the Ashby maybe) where there was a sign saying it was a SSSI and not to discharge grey water. I can't image a single boater mooring there and complying with that though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) It shouldnt be a problem. Huge tanks alongside pumpout tanks onboard that can be pumped out at the same time as charging the batteries for the propulsion at the thousands of charging points soon to be appearing all over the system. Must go and catch one of these flying pigs later today. Edited December 15, 2020 by mrsmelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacet Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 The Thames Conservancy used to prohibit grey water discharge; we hired a pair of otherwise identical cruisers in, I think, 1970. One discharged the sink water over the side - the second into a bucket beneath the sink. Apparently someone had been tactless in drawing the plug whilst in a lock, resulting in changes. Most septic tanks take grey water in addition to a black - so it ought not to be an insurmountable issue possibly with some additional design changes. Much more of a problem with cess pit where the capacity is limited. Non-mains pump-out stations are always going to be awkward; domestic treatment plants are reasonably common which ought to have a clean discharge possibly into the canal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, magpie patrick said: So what I'm fishing for is ideas on disposal, and also whether there are any places anywhere (anywhere in the world) that require grey water storage? It is an increasing requirement in some Med bordering countries to retain and pump-out both Black & Grey water. With very heavy fines for failing to do so. The authorities calculate what you should be pumping out (both Black & Grey) from the number of people on board. You have a blue card that records the volume of water that is pumped out, and, if that is less than your calculated amount, you must have pumped out at sea and get a fine. It is apparently a proposal that within the EU all grey water and Black water must be retained and pumped out - NO discharge allowed. My UK built boat was built to European 'future requirements' and has both Black & Greay water tanks, but, my French built boat only has Black water tanks Some background : Turkey's new cruising black/gray water rules, skipper qualifications (sail-world.com) Turkey extends blue card scheme - Sailing Today Greece In Greece the regulations relating to discharges and pollution make a holding tank a practical necessity although we are not aware of them being a legal requirement as yet. Caution should also be exerted with grey water in Greece. Turkey Discharge of any kind may be considered illegal. A black water tank has therefore been a practical necessity in Turkey for many years. New rules have been coming into force in some areas of Turkey (such as the Mugla District) over the last few years which require vessels to carry a Blue Card. If the rules are enforced to the full all black and grey water will need to be collected and pumped out ashore; the Blue Card will be used to monitor the amount of waste water deposited ashore to ensure holding tanks are pumped out rather than emptied into the sea. Edited December 15, 2020 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) Surely grey water could be discharged into a normal mains drain? I suppose it might be true that mains drainage is unlikely to be found in a rural location, but in any town or even village it will be. Edited December 15, 2020 by nicknorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen-in-Wellies Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Seeing what gets chucked in to the canal round here, our grey water is probably the least worrying. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noone Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 I have a grey water tank on my boat for my washing m/c and shower.. I empty it via a hose pipe into the hedge!.?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murflynn Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 it's about time those environmentally unfriendly four legged beasties that create mountains of CO2 and methane are prevented from peeing and pooing near the water's edge or in fields where the drainage channels transport their waste into our otherwise pristine waterways. diss gusting innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, nicknorman said: Surely grey water could be discharged into a normal mains drain? I suppose it might be true that mains drainage is unlikely to be found in a rural location, but in any town or even village it will be. I believe that in 'domestic situations' all grey water goes into the sewers to be treated. Surface water run-off going into a 'normal mains drain' will not have the same contaminants as Grey water (soap, beach etc) but will obvilously contain micro-rubber bits and potentially hydrocarbon traces. Surface water drains typically run into dykes and even the canals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twbm Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Having recently purchased a motorhome, I started using it with an 'I've been boating so I get the 12v / limited water etc style of living' approach. It's different, mostly because of the limited capacities, exacerbated by the low but real risk of being taken to a weighbridge - a full fresh water and waste tank can take you way over the max vehicle weight, changes the vehicle handling enough to be a nuisance, as well as not being usable without dumping grey water somewhere you shouldn't, so water management is a daily consideration. Motorhomes have one big advantage - gravity empties the tank. Thinking of any boat I've ever hired / owned / had a ride on, there's going to be some expensive re-working required to get a grey water capability that can cope with the fresh water capacity. The obvious place might be where the fresh water is, replacing a single tank with two - but even then there would be a lot of extra waste pipe work, and maybe pumps, to get through bilges / bulkeads etc., and an obvious drop in capacity. If the tank is a structural part of the boat that wonlt help either. Another option for those with pumpouts would be to go to cassette toilet and convert the pump out tank, or just route grey water to it and pay to have it emptied more often - but again more waste pipes to route, and noting the comments re septic tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frahkn Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 1 hour ago, magpie patrick said: Hi Folks - some hypothetical thinking on a practical matter. At the moment most, of not all boats on UK water dispose of grey water (Washing up, shower etc) over the side, but I can foresee that in some pristine environments (introducing navigation on a chalk river for example) this might be undesirable and bordering on unacceptable. so I was pondering grey water storage in much the same way as boats now have black water (sewage) storage now. Thinking aloud: First, the practicality of storage - logically boats only create grey water at the rate they consume fresh water, probably less as some of the fresh water is used for drinking, and fresh water has to be stored somewhere so in theory storage of the grey water takes no more room and on most boats finding space wouldn't be a problem, although retrofitting a tank might be. Then, disposal - presumably we'd need disposal points similar to elsan and pump out - here's where the sticking point comes. Because I can't think of a navigation authority the requires or even encourages storage of grey water, I can't think of a single example of a disposal point for grey water. IF an elsan point is connected to the sewer that could be used, but one connected to a sceptic tank would have a huge extra demand placed on it. So what I'm fishing for is ideas on disposal, and also whether there are any places anywhere (anywhere in the world) that require grey water storage? I can envisage a system where fresh-water tanks had a bladder which allowed the same volume to be occupied with grey water as the fresh was used. In such a case, the grey water could be pumped into the drain which is found below most fresh water outlets, as new fresh was filled. This assumes that they are 'drains' and not just sumps of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoat Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 10 minutes ago, nicknorman said: Surely grey water could be discharged into a normal mains drain? I suppose it might be true that mains drainage is unlikely to be found in a rural location, but in any town or even village it will be. My home grey water finds its way through a very large septic tank, filtered though several feet of Sussex clay, into a ditch, stream, river Adur and thence to the English Channel. Nobody has ever complained.... No mains drainage here - we process our own poo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, magpie patrick said: I can't think of a single example of a disposal point for grey water. IF an elsan point is connected to the sewer that could be used, but one connected to a sceptic tank would have a huge extra demand placed on it. Surely any existing pumpout station could empty a grey water tank (with suitable deck fitting) as easily as a black water tank. And similarly, anyone with self pumpout kit could have valves allowing the pumpout to empty black and grey water tanks into any suitable elsan point (with all the same issues about spraying the stuff over the walls and floor). Edited December 15, 2020 by David Mack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twbm Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 22 minutes ago, nicknorman said: Surely grey water could be discharged into a normal mains drain? I suppose it might be true that mains drainage is unlikely to be found in a rural location, but in any town or even village it will be. In modern developments, surface water and domestic grey water are separated and the water authorities get quite animated if grey water goes down the wrong one. This probably isn't an issue in a lot of canal side locations, but you'd have to pick your spot and maybe avoid some recently 'gentrified' wharves where they don't like boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 1 hour ago, magpie patrick said: connected to a sceptic tank... Is that a tank that questions the conventional wisdom? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 1 hour ago, magpie patrick said: First, the practicality of storage - logically boats only create grey water at the rate they consume fresh water, probably less as some of the fresh water is used for drinking, and fresh water has to be stored somewhere so in theory storage of the grey water takes no more room and on most boats finding space wouldn't be a problem, although retrofitting a tank might be. Although it's true that grey water storage would take up no more space than the fresh water tank, on some boats that's quite a lot of space. My water tank is 1,275 litres or 1.275m3. Some narrowboats have tanks as big as that too. It's a big chunk of space and for those who also like to carry big, permanently mounted black water tanks on their boats it might be a problem even on a new build. 25 minutes ago, Leggers do it lying down said: I have a grey water tank on my boat for my washing m/c and shower.. I empty it via a hose pipe into the hedge!.?? From where it then seeps back into the waterway no doubt. Filtered to some extent I suppose depending on the make up of the ground it's emptied onto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Just now, twbm said: In modern developments, surface water and domestic grey water are separated What you term "domestic grey water" comprises what a boater would call "black" and "grey" water and in drainage circles is referred to as "foul water" I.e the output of toilets, baths, showers, sinks, washing machines etc. "Surface water" is the runoff from roofs and paved surfaces. Storm and foul water have been separated for years, with "combined sewers" only found in older built up areas. Foul water is treated at sewage treatment works before discharge; surface water is released to water courses, sometimes directly, sometimes via settling ponds or silt traps to allow suspended sediments to be trapped (as long as these are maintained). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said: It is an increasing requirement in some Med bordering countries to retain and pump-out both Black & Grey water. With very heavy fines for failing to do so. The authorities calculate what you should be pumping out (both Black & Grey) from the number of people on board. You have a blue card that records the volume of water that is pumped out, and, if that is less than your calculated amount, you must have pumped out at sea and get a fine. It is apparently a proposal that within the EU all grey water and Black water must be retained and pumped out - NO discharge allowed. My UK built boat was built to European 'future requirements' and has both Black & Greay water tanks, but, my French built boat only has Black water tanks Some background : Turkey's new cruising black/gray water rules, skipper qualifications (sail-world.com) Turkey extends blue card scheme - Sailing Today Greece In Greece the regulations relating to discharges and pollution make a holding tank a practical necessity although we are not aware of them being a legal requirement as yet. Caution should also be exerted with grey water in Greece. Turkey Discharge of any kind may be considered illegal. A black water tank has therefore been a practical necessity in Turkey for many years. New rules have been coming into force in some areas of Turkey (such as the Mugla District) over the last few years which require vessels to carry a Blue Card. If the rules are enforced to the full all black and grey water will need to be collected and pumped out ashore; the Blue Card will be used to monitor the amount of waste water deposited ashore to ensure holding tanks are pumped out rather than emptied into the sea. What I don't understand is that some countries have these rules but don't provide any infrastructure in terms of emptying tanks. My mate lives on a boat on the Rhone south of Lyon. I helped him take the boat across the channel and from Calais through a bit of Northern France. He's taken his boat down to the south and told me he's seldom seen any pump out or other waste disposal facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, blackrose said: Although it's true that grey water storage would take up no more space than the fresh water tank, on some boats that's quite a lot of space. My water tank is 1,275 litres or 1.275m3. Some narrowboats have tanks as big as that too. It's a big chunk of space and for those who also like to carry big, permanently mounted black water tanks on their boats it might be a problem even on a new build. For which the logical answer is to reduce the size of the fresh water tank to allow space for the foul. Not really a problem on a new build, albeit that both taking on water and pumping out will be more frequent. I agree it could be more of an issue as a retrofit. If overside discharge of grey water were to be banned there would be no point in having separate black and grey water tanks. It could all go into a single foul water tank. For boats with a dump through toilet this would presumably require a larger tank located in/adjacent to the bathroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alias Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: Surface water run-off going into a 'normal mains drain' will not have the same contaminants as Grey water (soap, beach etc) but will obvilously contain micro-rubber bits and potentially hydrocarbon traces. Surface water run off as others have said is in new developments segregated from the "foul" main drainage. A consequence in areas where the two streams are still mixed is that in heavy rain the sewage treatment works can be overwhelmed and discharge to watercourses without adequate treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, David Mack said: Surely any existing pumpout station could empty a grey water tank (with suitable deck fitting) as easily as a black water tank. And similarly, anyone with self pumpout kit could have valves allowing the pumpout to empty black and grey water tanks into any suitable elsan point (with all the same issues about spraying the stuff over the walls and floor). I think the concern is the volume. A septic (sceptic) tank designed for a certain volume of 'black water' is going to be quickly overloaded if it has to take that amount and an additional 2 or 3 or 4 times that volume in addition. When we had the house built we had to install a 'sewage treatment plant' that processes both Grey and Black water and is rated as a "55 person unit" it has all sorts of filters, fans, and spray booms inside and several chambers that each have differing stages of 'water cleanliness'. The final out put is allegedly as clean as tap water (but probabbly higher in Nitrates) and could be drunk. With regard to the boat we have a manifold of valves so we can choose to pump out either the Black or the Grey tank, or both, Installing our treatment plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, blackrose said: What I don't understand is that some countries have these rules but don't provide any infrastructure in terms of emptying tanks. My mate lives on a boat on the Rhone south of Lyon. I helped him take the boat across the channel and from Calais through a bit of Northern France. He's taken his boat down to the south and told me he's seldom seen any pump out or other waste disposal facilities. Because the French have loads of laws, and when convenient ignore them, or, only apply them to non-French nationals. From the RYA : France French law requires that as of 1 January 2008 new vessels, whether French or foreign flagged, are fitted with a treatment system or retention tank for black water if they wish to have access to French maritime or river ports, moorings and anchorages. Users of older vessels which are not equipped with treatment systems or holding tanks for black water are, like all other pleasure yacht users, required to comply with the rules which prohibit discharge in ports and designated anchoring spots. They must therefore use shore toilets. How these rules are to be applied or enforced is not very clear but it is anticipated that guidelines or a further law defining the extent and manner of application and any sanctions will be issued in the future. In principle it is forbidden to flush toilets into canals and rivers, but as pump out facilities are few and far between until now discreet overboard discharging has been tolerated, this may of course change. Edited December 15, 2020 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Anyway, I don’t really see the problem with grey water into watercourses. The “grey” is bits of food from the washing up, bits of skin from the shower/basin, and the soap and detergent. As to the organic bits, well the fish and other wildlife have to eat something! The soap is a fairly natural product and these days washing up liquids are green. Literally! All the fish, birds, rats etc pee and poop into the canal and no-one is trying to stop them doing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st ade Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Just now, nicknorman said: ...and no-one is trying to stop them doing it Give it time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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