phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Ronaldo47]

Possibly Apple's loophole is that, whereas the EC standard  phone connector is used at one end of a passive cable, a Lightning cable is not passive because  the Lightning plug contains electronic circuitry. It is therefore not so much a connector as a plug-in electronic assembly.

 

[IanD]

6 hours ago, George and Dragon said:

Uber? What's that? Out (not very far) in the sticks Uber might as well not exist. If you want to get around you need a car and a driving licence or be prepared for taxis that might arrive when they say they will.

I didn't say Uber was available everywhere, that's another of its problems to add to the ones I listed. What I said is that when it is available and works it's easy and convenient to use, and (usually) arrives when promised.

 

In low-density population areas -- "the sticks" -- most public transport doesn't work either, the buses are too infrequent (if they run at all) and spend much of their time almost empty. Having a system where you can easily order a pickup online when you want it -- with ride sharing where possible to get the costs down, maybe using minibuses not cars -- is half-way between what Uber and ride-on-demand buses already do; done properly this should be able to provide a better service for less money than empty buses driving around. For routes with a lot of custom regular buses are still a better option, so long as they're reasonably full.

 

For this to work for most people -- especially the poor -- the government would have to spend the money that currently goes on rural buses on CAAS, but I've no doubt they could still cock it up and give us something which is worse and more expensive... ?

Edited December 7, 2020 by IanD

[1st ade]

47 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Would I be right in thinking that if the EU had decided that Apple's Lightning was the way to go, Apple would have waited for them to adopt it and then changed their own?

Or they would have charged every other manufacturer for using "their" standard

[1st ade]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Before its standardized you have to decide which is the best, but your right, imagine with brand A car you could only fill with petrol at Tesco, but with brand C diesel you had to go to morrisons.

Which is not a million miles removed from where we are now with BEV - at least three standards which are not (readily) interoperable.

 

As a Green Council we are installing a charging point in the Town Hall car park - which one to choose...

[nb Innisfree]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Thats more like it, will the manufacturers ever get their act together re a single charging method/plug? at present it seems there are different types? After all, the pedals on the floor were standardised many years ago so surely differnt charging point types is easily changed to one type. Im just pleased though that it wont effect me as I will have stopped driving before proper cars have completely been removed, I just hope the second hand costs of good older vehicles like I drive dont go through the roof as the end gets nearer.

Basically two types of plug.

Main prob is going with one method of payment like with petrol ie cash or credit/debit card. 

https://www-theverge-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/12/6/22157109/aptera-ev-solar-charging-vehicle?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.com%2F2020%2F12%2F6%2F22157109%2Faptera-ev-solar-charging-vehicle

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, 1st ade said:

Which is not a million miles removed from where we are now with BEV - at least three standards which are not (readily) interoperable.

 

As a Green Council we are installing a charging point in the Town Hall car park - which one to choose...

But what do the Conservatives and labour do ?

[peterboat]

5 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Thats more like it, will the manufacturers ever get their act together re a single charging method/plug? at present it seems there are different types? After all, the pedals on the floor were standardised many years ago so surely differnt charging point types is easily changed to one type. Im just pleased though that it wont effect me as I will have stopped driving before proper cars have completely been removed, I just hope the second hand costs of good older vehicles like I drive dont go through the roof as the end gets nearer.

I think through the floor is a better bet! It will be like musical chairs when the music stops you will all be rushing to sell to ever fewer buyers, with ever less fuel to power them ?

[IanD]

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

Basically two types of plug.

Main prob is going with one method of payment like with petrol ie cash or credit/debit card. 

https://www-theverge-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/12/6/22157109/aptera-ev-solar-charging-vehicle?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.com%2F2020%2F12%2F6%2F22157109%2Faptera-ev-solar-charging-vehicle

It's not even one type of payment that's the problem, it's that different suppliers have different payment systems behind them -- some need an app, some just a credit card, some you need to have an account with or be registered with, some use contactless, some need online verification/ID, some use two-factor authentication.

 

In the USA you can pull up to a charging station and then find you're not set up to use it, then try and sort things out online, then fail, then drive to another one and have the same happen again -- I've been a passenger in a car when this happened, the driver was not a happy bunny.

 

The problem is that there's no co-ordination, everybody develops their own wonderful system regardless of what the others do. What's needed is an agreed single standard -- payment and authorisation, not just hardware like plugs -- that all the charging stations use...

 

https://xkcd.com/927/

[mrsmelly]

26 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I think through the floor is a better bet! It will be like musical chairs when the music stops you will all be rushing to sell to ever fewer buyers, with ever less fuel to power them ?

Yaaaaaaaay I do hope so ?

[phantom_iv]

26 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's not even one type of payment that's the problem, it's that different suppliers have different payment systems behind them -- some need an app, some just a credit card, some you need to have an account with or be registered with, some use contactless, some need online verification/ID, some use two-factor authentication.

 

Isn't it a legal requirement to accept contactless credit/debit cards in all newly installed ones? Frankly getting the bloody apps to work is the biggest problem with the UK charging network to date, it's so much faff. Some are better than others though, e.g. Instavolt are great. Tesla's charging network is a big plus point for buying their cars, just plug it in and wander off with zero faffing and they'll send you the bill.

 

48 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I think through the floor is a better bet! It will be like musical chairs when the music stops you will all be rushing to sell to ever fewer buyers, with ever less fuel to power them ?

 

Yes, it's hard to imagine why you would want a fossil-fuelled car in 2030. They just seem really expensive to run, unreliable and inconvenient. Having to go to a petrol station to buy fuel all the time is just so much faff!

 

[George and Dragon]

5 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Funny you should ask. As usual with anything Apple, there is intense secrecy around it. No doubt if it ever does get released, it will be charge through a lightning cable and cost 50% more than any other BEV of similar range/size/performance. It will have pleasingly rounded corners. They will update the software to steadily slow it down so you have to buy the new model, even though it should still work fine. Repairs will be extortionate and can only be done by Apple garages with Apple spares. There will be exclusive Apple lanes on roads and it won't work on regular streets. People will still buy it as it just works and doesn't need regularly turning off and on again. ?

Better not look at their new M1 system on a chip then.

[peterboat]

41 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

 

Isn't it a legal requirement to accept contactless credit/debit cards in all newly installed ones? Frankly getting the bloody apps to work is the biggest problem with the UK charging network to date, it's so much faff. Some are better than others though, e.g. Instavolt are great. Tesla's charging network is a big plus point for buying their cars, just plug it in and wander off with zero faffing and they'll send you the bill.

 

 

Yes, it's hard to imagine why you would want a fossil-fuelled car in 2030. They just seem really expensive to run, unreliable and inconvenient. Having to go to a petrol station to buy fuel all the time is just so much faff!

 

My 2 mates with Teslas have free supercharging for life 2 very happy bunnies to say the least 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

5 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

5 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Funny you should ask. As usual with anything Apple, there is intense secrecy around it. No doubt if it ever does get released, it will be charge through a lightning cable and cost 50% more than any other BEV of similar range/size/performance. It will have pleasingly rounded corners. They will update the software to steadily slow it down so you have to buy the new model, even though it should still work fine. Repairs will be extortionate and can only be done by Apple garages with Apple spares. There will be exclusive Apple lanes on roads and it won't work on regular streets. People will still buy it as it just works and doesn't need regularly turning off and on again. ?

Better not look at their new M1 system on a chip then.

What's the point of an electric car you can only use on a single motorway?

Another problem with an Apple BEV is if you break the windscreen it will be cheaper to throw away the car and buy a new one than get it fixed. ?

[George and Dragon]

Just now, Jen-in-Wellies said:

What's the point of an electric car you can only use on a single motorway?

Another problem with an Apple BEV is if you break the windscreen it will be cheaper to throw away the car and buy a new one than get it fixed. ?

In what way could you only use an Apple car on a single motorway? Until Apple developed their own silicon they were using the same hardware as all the other manufacturers. The difference was in the operating system but you were perfectly able to install another OS if desired.

The problem with Dell and many other laptops is it's built down to a price, and it shows. In addition it probably has some version of Windows installed. My current Apple laptop is reaching its end life after more than 8 years, which means it's cost me £125 per year. Actually, I lie, it had new battery fitted last year which wasn't cheap but nothing like the cost of a replacement machine.

 

(I wish I had thrown away my Focus when the heated front screen had to be replaced since the new one is no-where near as effective).

[nb Innisfree]

I've tried supercharging 4 times now, all at Fleet Services on the M3, only worked twice.

For anyone contemplating long journeys in an EV then a Tesla and their superb charging infrastructure is your only realistic way unless you have an EV with a range extender. 

[peterboat]

16 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

I've tried supercharging 4 times now, all at Fleet Services on the M3, only worked twice.

For anyone contemplating long journeys in an EV then a Tesla and their superb charging infrastructure is your only realistic way unless you have an EV with a range extender. 

Tesla have done the job properly, I suspect in a few years the legacy car makers might be stuffed as their offerings arnt that great in comparison to Tesla. Rumour has it the German car makers arnt happy about the Berlin factory, they have a right to be scared as he is after all of the market

[Mike Todd]

16 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

I've tried supercharging 4 times now, all at Fleet Services on the M3, only worked twice.

For anyone contemplating long journeys in an EV then a Tesla and their superb charging infrastructure is your only realistic way unless you have an EV with a range extender. 

Interesting article in the press today about the issues regarding the supply of Lithium. (No, this is not an anti-electric posting!) The point being made is that on the large scale, lithium is quite hard to find and at present is beginning to damage remote parts of the world on a way that de-forestation once began. It does seem that there are real questions to be answered on a commercial/industrial nature (ie can we get enough rare materials to power the world's transport system at a realistic price?) but probably the more important are ethical. 

 

If net zero carbon (let alone actual zero carbon) involves transferring 'the problem' from polluted streets in the developed world to ravaged landscapes in the third world, is this really a gain for the world as a whole? Even if it is, technically, is it ethical? Too often the rich gain by promoting policies that are achieved at the expense of the poor. There are too many examples still in headlines today.

 

Is there a really green option on the table, only ones that can be painted over on the surface to look like they are? In many ways, too many arguments in favour of the alternative options available now is that they are not quite as bad as the status quo. Is that enough to make them ethical? Or are they just another form of the old joke that somewhere had the tag line, "But it is only a little one"

5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Tesla have done the job properly, I suspect in a few years the legacy car makers might be stuffed as their offerings arnt that great in comparison to Tesla. Rumour has it the German car makers arnt happy about the Berlin factory, they have a right to be scared as he is after all of the market

If you are right, they do you not worry about creating another global monopoly like, say, Amazon or Google? When the problems of monopolies were at a national level we knew how to deal with that - well sort of - but now that they are multi-national, we have no political philosophy that comes to our aid. The more prominent ones gaining traction today hark back to a nationalistic era, carefully ignoring that the world has moved on. It does seem to be unfortunate if we think that national sovereignty is the answer when it really takes international agreements to control what may be seen as an adverse trend - at last for hoi polloi.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

33 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

If you are right, they do you not worry about creating another global monopoly like, say, Amazon or Google? When the problems of monopolies were at a national level we knew how to deal with that - well sort of - but now that they are multi-national, we have no political philosophy that comes to our aid. The more prominent ones gaining traction today hark back to a nationalistic era, carefully ignoring that the world has moved on. It does seem to be unfortunate if we think that national sovereignty is the answer when it really takes international agreements to control what may be seen as an adverse trend - at last for hoi polloi.

Elon Musk is planning to become emperor of Mars. Jeff Bezos is well on his way to being emperor of Earth. I for one welcome our new tech overlords.

[mrsmelly]

18 hours ago, phantom_iv said:

 

Isn't it a legal requirement to accept contactless credit/debit cards in all newly installed ones? Frankly getting the bloody apps to work is the biggest problem with the UK charging network to date, it's so much faff. Some are better than others though, e.g. Instavolt are great. Tesla's charging network is a big plus point for buying their cars, just plug it in and wander off with zero faffing and they'll send you the bill.

 

 

Yes, it's hard to imagine why you would want a fossil-fuelled car in 2030. They just seem really expensive to run, unreliable and inconvenient. Having to go to a petrol station to buy fuel all the time is just so much faff!

 

I havnt had a break down in over 20 years, you must buy German crap or something?  In 2030 how many good long enough range lectric cars are going to be available for a couple of grand? or is everybody supposed to join the mugs that throw away thousands on a car? That reminds me, I  must throw away this perfectly good old fashioned Led TV and buy an oled tv at five times the price and be conned by many that fall for smart advertising.

[TheBiscuits]

24 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I for one welcome our new tech overlords

 

1. Heh.  There's a blast from the past.

2. ???

3. Profit!

 

 

 

(Geek references from the previous century, just to avoid puzzled people)

[ditchcrawler]

This was a very ambitious project to take on http://nauticmag.com/2020/12/07/electric-shock-by-jimmy-cornell/?fbclid=IwAR0vz8Jj4q-4dFUwrozv_rpWHoQofCqMrshO6egUcZcF7368XlRqbd4n4Lo 

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I havnt had a break down in over 20 years, you must buy German crap or something?  In 2030 how many good long enough range lectric cars are going to be available for a couple of grand? or is everybody supposed to join the mugs that throw away thousands on a car? That reminds me, I  must throw away this perfectly good old fashioned Led TV and buy an oled tv at five times the price and be conned by many that fall for smart advertising.

I bought a new LED TV some years ago and while reseting the wall clock when we went from summer to winter time knocked it over breaking the screen. Took it for repair and it was cheaper to buy a new one, the price had over halved in 2 years.

 

[mrsmelly]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

I bought a new LED TV some years ago and while reseting the wall clock when we went from summer to winter time knocked it over breaking the screen. Took it for repair and it was cheaper to buy a new one, the price had over halved in 2 years.

 

Yes, they work extremely well and are cheap and reliable much like the over a billion of ice vehicles in the world.

[doratheexplorer]

19 hours ago, IanD said:

It's not even one type of payment that's the problem, it's that different suppliers have different payment systems behind them -- some need an app, some just a credit card, some you need to have an account with or be registered with, some use contactless, some need online verification/ID, some use two-factor authentication.

 

In the USA you can pull up to a charging station and then find you're not set up to use it, then try and sort things out online, then fail, then drive to another one and have the same happen again -- I've been a passenger in a car when this happened, the driver was not a happy bunny.

 

The problem is that there's no co-ordination, everybody develops their own wonderful system regardless of what the others do. What's needed is an agreed single standard -- payment and authorisation, not just hardware like plugs -- that all the charging stations use...

 

https://xkcd.com/927/

It's almost as if some kind of nationalised infrastructure programme would be helpful.  Not that that's ever gonna happen.

[ditchcrawler]

16 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's almost as if some kind of nationalised infrastructure programme would be helpful.  Not that that's ever gonna happen.

UK's first all-electric car charging forecourt opens in Essex

Clean energy firm Gridserve has plans for more than 100 such sites over next five years

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/07/uk-first-all-electric-car-charging-forecourt-opens-in-essex