Electric Boats

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Thames it's more than likely there already 

 

 

Thank God for that!

 

The video says it was for the canals.

 

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Thames it's more than likely there already 

 

Must have been a tight squeeze through Watford?  😛😛😛

[David Mack]

11 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

There is no doubting the quality of the fit out.

 

Although as one Youtube commenter says:

 

"Very nice looking boat, however the wiring for those DC2DC chargers and MPPT's is dreadful (15mins in) and probably dangerous. All those devices get hot, particularly the DC2DC Orion boxes, additionally they all have a minimun 10cm clearance requirement above and below for ventialtion. The connections look strained in some cases and in direct contact with the heat sinks. For the price, which is probaly high, one should expect very tidy wire management not something that looks like a teenager did it on a hangover. Not sure that would pass a boat electrical inspection sadly as its a fire risk. Does kinda make you wonder what the rest of the hidden wiring looks like…"

 

And looking at this I think he may have a point:

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Although as one Youtube commenter says:

 

"Very nice looking boat, however the wiring for those DC2DC chargers and MPPT's is dreadful (15mins in) and probably dangerous. All those devices get hot, particularly the DC2DC Orion boxes, additionally they all have a minimun 10cm clearance requirement above and below for ventialtion. The connections look strained in some cases and in direct contact with the heat sinks. For the price, which is probaly high, one should expect very tidy wire management not something that looks like a teenager did it on a hangover. Not sure that would pass a boat electrical inspection sadly as its a fire risk. Does kinda make you wonder what the rest of the hidden wiring looks like…"

 

And looking at this I think he may have a point:

 

 

Indeed. I saw that comment. I was however refering to the fit and finish of the interior wood work when I commented.

[Markblox]

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

Although as one Youtube commenter says:

 

"Very nice looking boat, however the wiring for those DC2DC chargers and MPPT's is dreadful (15mins in) and probably dangerous. All those devices get hot, particularly the DC2DC Orion boxes, additionally they all have a minimun 10cm clearance requirement above and below for ventialtion. The connections look strained in some cases and in direct contact with the heat sinks. For the price, which is probaly high, one should expect very tidy wire management not something that looks like a teenager did it on a hangover. Not sure that would pass a boat electrical inspection sadly as its a fire risk. Does kinda make you wonder what the rest of the hidden wiring looks like…"

 

And looking at this I think he may have a point:

 

And the wiring has been lashed in,  very poor and no circuit id tags either.  Looks like a hot place where they are located as heat rises.

[IanD]

On 11/06/2022 at 21:10, Bargebuilder said:

Indeed they are, but the less ugly stick-on versions are very much lagging behind in the efficiency stakes. The rigid panel versions may, before too long, reach the golden 50% efficiency figure, but they don't look particularly tidy on a boat's roof, and the real life efficiency would be much lower unless they were able to track the Sun's position in the sky, which is practically impossible on a narrowboat.

 

Even in the summer, the Sun is only high in the sky and anywhere near the ideal angle for a horizontal panel during the middle segment of the day. In the Winter, any solar radiation that does penetrate the cloud comes in at such a low angle that much of its potential is lost entirely.

 

Improvements in efficiency there may be, but if very little solar radiation is hitting a panel then very little extra electricity will be generated.

 

Just for the sake of interest, below is a direct lift from exeoenergy.co.uk. The figures are for solar radiation hitting the ground, but a stick-on panel may not exceed 15% in efficiency, so mid-day on a sunny midsummers day you might get 150w/m², but on a cloudy midwinter day you will only get a 15w output and only then for a very few hours.

 

sunny, clear sky 

summer: 600 - 1000 W/m²

winter: 300 - 500 W/m²

sunny, skattered clouds or partly cloudy

summer: 300 - 600 W/m²

winter: 150 - 300 W/m²

cloudy, fog

summer: 100 - 300 W/m²

winter: 50 - 150 W/m²

 

 

 

You really need to check your facts on solar panels...

 

Semi-flexible panels using mono silicon are pretty much the same efficiency as rigid ones (just over 20%), the problem is the much higher cost (about 5x higher) and reduced lifetime if not properly fitted.

 

There is zero chance of low-cost panels (no expensive exotic materials or manufacturing costs) ever hitting 50% efficiency due to basic physics, they could get up to the mid-20s in the not-too-distant future assuming perovskite-on-silicon can be mass-produced at low cost and with good lifetime. Multilayer panels with ~30% efficiency are used in applications like space and solar concentrators where efficiency justifies a huge price premium (maybe 100x?). There are panels in the labs getting towards 50% using multiple layers and horribly expensive manufacturing techniques like MBE that can't ever make it into the mass market due to cost and limited rare element supplies.

 

Flat-mounted panels lose about 16% yield in the UK compared to optimally-angled (35% elevation) south-facing panels, which are not always possible on a boat.

[Bargebuilder]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

You really need to check your facts on solar panels...

 

Semi-flexible panels using mono silicon are pretty much the same efficiency as rigid ones (just over 20%), the problem is the much higher cost (about 5x higher) and reduced lifetime if not properly fitted.

 

There is zero chance of low-cost panels (no expensive exotic materials or manufacturing costs) ever hitting 50% efficiency due to basic physics, they could get up to the mid-20s in the not-too-distant future assuming perovskite-on-silicon can be mass-produced at low cost and with good lifetime. Multilayer panels with ~30% efficiency are used in applications like space and solar concentrators where efficiency justifies a huge price premium (maybe 100x?). There are panels in the labs getting towards 50% using multiple layers and horribly expensive manufacturing techniques like MBE that can't ever make it into the mass market due to cost and limited rare element supplies.

 

Flat-mounted panels lose about 16% yield in the UK compared to optimally-angled (35% elevation) south-facing panels, which are not always possible on a boat.

I used 15% because that is a good average for the efficiency of most of the flexible panels currently installed. You can, of course, spend 5x as much to gain another 5% in efficiency, but that will give you just an extra 5 watts per m² on a gloomy mid-winter's day. Very much a diminishing return for ones investment and for those for whom money is not a barrier, but then, for the benefit of 'silent' running, some will seemingly spend whatever it takes.

 

I am all for people spending their money on what brings them pleasure, providing they don't insist that everyone should travel everywhere at no more than 3mph and graciously let people by who wish to cruise at 4mph when it is safe and acceptable to do so. 

 

 

 

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I used 15% because that is a good average for the efficiency of most of the flexible panels currently installed. You can, of course, spend 5x as much to gain another 5% in efficiency, but that will give you just an extra 5 watts per m² on a gloomy mid-winter's day. Very much a diminishing return for ones investment and for those for whom money is not a barrier, but then, for the benefit of 'silent' running, some will seemingly spend whatever it takes.

 

I am all for people spending their money on what brings them pleasure, providing they don't insist that everyone should travel everywhere at no more than 3mph and graciously let people by who wish to cruise at 4mph when it is safe and acceptable to do so. 

 

 

15% is about right for CIGS panels, but most semi-flexible panels using mono silicon are over 20%, the same as rigid panels, and are no more expensive than CIGS -- super-flexible panels might be needed for installations on things like yacht canopies, but not for narrowboats. But as I said *any* non-rigid panels are far more expensive because they're made in far smaller volumes, so if cost matters rigid panels are the sensible option.

 

People who ignore boats behind them who don't want to travel as slowly as they do are the equivalent of MLMs on the motorway, we got stuck behind one a couple of weeks ago... 😞

[PD1964]

The boat was well received at Crick, winning best Widebeam.

  It’s “horses for courses” as the saying goes. The owner lives in Derbyshire and from what I can gather is using it for stays in London, so will be on the Thames, which is a suitable location/cruising area for the boat.

So the customer/owner has ended up with a suitable product for his requirements.

  If people were honest with themselves, most would buy a boat like this rather than a Narrowboat, if their financial situation allowed and they weren’t bothered with canals and they just wanted a home on the water with the occasional weekend family trip. Obviously on a waterway which could accommodate a boat of this size. 
  

[peterboat]

38 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

The boat was well received at Crick, winning best Widebeam.

  It’s “horses for courses” as the saying goes. The owner lives in Derbyshire and from what I can gather is using it for stays in London, so will be on the Thames, which is a suitable location/cruising area for the boat.

So the customer/owner has ended up with a suitable product for his requirements.

  If people were honest with themselves, most would buy a boat like this rather than a Narrowboat, if their financial situation allowed and they weren’t bothered with canals and they just wanted a home on the water with the occasional weekend family trip. Obviously on a waterway which could accommodate a boat of this size. 
  

I saw nothing but eager and smiling faces at the boat, like you I would happily own it if I had that sort of money. I voted for it not because I know the builder but because it was the best there. No doubt the bigger version will arrive soon. 

I hope the owners use it and enjoy it as it's a remarkable looking boat 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I saw nothing but eager and smiling faces at the boat, like you I would happily own it if I had that sort of money. I voted for it not because I know the builder but because it was the best there. No doubt the bigger version will arrive soon. 

I hope the owners use it and enjoy it as it's a remarkable looking boat 

 

I have made the mistake of showing mrs HN that boat.

 

Apparently if our numbers dont come up this week the house is going on the market. 🤣🤣

[Markblox]

On 11/06/2022 at 21:39, David Mack said:

Anyone with an automatic start generator should be required to have it on an 8 to 8 timer, so it can't start during night hours.

On that boat he will have a Victron Cerbo to control the Victron system and within that software you can set the generator to automatically fire up but the time can also be set for quiet time.  It's very sophisticated.  Amazing boat, must have cost a fortune but I wish the video showed more of the tech.  Not mention of the inverter even, obviously a 48V system and a large Victron Quatro, maybe 5 or 8KVA I would imagine.  Lithiums or LA?  No mention!

[Bargebuilder]

5 hours ago, IanD said:

People who ignore boats behind them who don't want to travel as slowly as they do are the equivalent of MLMs on the motorway

But why do some boaters behave like this, is it selfishness or ignorance or what?

 

 

[IanD]

56 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

But why do some boaters behave like this, is it selfishness or ignorance or what?

 

 

They're not in any kind of hurry to get anywhere and happy to pootle along slowly, and they don't see why anyone else should want or need to go any faster than them. Same principle as sticking in the middle lane and refusing to move into the (empty) inner lane.

 

I don't hang about but if I find a boat behind me is catching up, I'd rather pull over and let them pass than have to keep looking over my shoulder all the time -- it's simply polite, and I've done it at least once per trip, often for someone who doesn't care about making a big breaking wash -- but it's not my job to be the canal police...

[GUMPY]

On 11/06/2022 at 23:03, David Mack said:

 

Although as one Youtube commenter says:

 

"Very nice looking boat, however the wiring for those DC2DC chargers and MPPT's is dreadful (15mins in) and probably dangerous. All those devices get hot, particularly the DC2DC Orion boxes, additionally they all have a minimun 10cm clearance requirement above and below for ventialtion. The connections look strained in some cases and in direct contact with the heat sinks. For the price, which is probaly high, one should expect very tidy wire management not something that looks like a teenager did it on a hangover. Not sure that would pass a boat electrical inspection sadly as its a fire risk. Does kinda make you wonder what the rest of the hidden wiring looks like…"

 

And looking at this I think he may have a point:

 

That wiring is an appalling mess, if somone had presented that to me at work they would have been sacked on the spot. 

I would reject the boat on that alone.

 

[peterboat]

15 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I have made the mistake of showing mrs HN that boat.

 

Apparently if our numbers dont come up this week the house is going on the market. 🤣🤣

Up here on the northern waterways it's an ideal boat, I think I would want mine at about 57 x 13 though for a slightly better cruising range 

12 hours ago, Markblox said:

On that boat he will have a Victron Cerbo to control the Victron system and within that software you can set the generator to automatically fire up but the time can also be set for quiet time.  It's very sophisticated.  Amazing boat, must have cost a fortune but I wish the video showed more of the tech.  Not mention of the inverter even, obviously a 48V system and a large Victron Quatro, maybe 5 or 8KVA I would imagine.  Lithiums or LA?  No mention!

LifePo4s 

[mrsmelly]

17 hours ago, PD1964 said:

The boat was well received at Crick, winning best Widebeam.

  It’s “horses for courses” as the saying goes. The owner lives in Derbyshire and from what I can gather is using it for stays in London, so will be on the Thames, which is a suitable location/cruising area for the boat.

So the customer/owner has ended up with a suitable product for his requirements.

  If people were honest with themselves, most would buy a boat like this rather than a Narrowboat, if their financial situation allowed and they weren’t bothered with canals and they just wanted a home on the water with the occasional weekend family trip. Obviously on a waterway which could accommodate a boat of this size. 
  

Theres nowt at all wrong with the boat. Lets face it, its narrowboats that are the stupid size!! What IS wrong with it though is the silly lectric boat sticker to make people think its all lectric when in reality it NEEDS a bloomin gennie onboard. A bit like composting toilets that dont compost ( being addressed by now calling them waterless )

[Hudds Lad]

11 hours ago, IanD said:

 

They're not in any kind of hurry to get anywhere and happy to pootle along slowly, and they don't see why anyone else should want or need to go any faster than them. Same principle as sticking in the middle lane and refusing to move into the (empty) inner lane.

 

I don't hang about but if I find a boat behind me is catching up, I'd rather pull over and let them pass than have to keep looking over my shoulder all the time -- it's simply polite, and I've done it at least once per trip, often for someone who doesn't care about making a big breaking wash -- but it's not my job to be the canal police...

Don't you find though, that sometimes you let one by, and then you end up stuck behind them as once they have no target ahead they slow down? Also theres an amount of slipstreaming i think, which aids the boat behind in catching up.

[Bargebuilder]

11 hours ago, IanD said:

 

 

Electric boats (without a diesel engine) might struggle on a river when going against the current, not for thrust of course, but to replace the hugely increased electrical consumption.

 

Electric canal boat owners have mentioned that 3mph through the water is the optimum for efficiency and to make the battery last a reasonable length of time. There are many times on a river when 3mph would see you not going anywhere against the flow.

 

Perhaps that's why the diesel generator is essential.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

Perhaps that's why the diesel generator is essential.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And like trains should be called diesel electric

[Markblox]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And like trains should be called diesel electric

I think the term 'All Electric' often refers to having no gas.  A bit churlish IMO to say an electrically propelled boat that has a generator for occasional use (Very occasional in the summer and quite often in the winter) isn't really an electric boat.  It's just playing with semantics, which is a game more than a few of you like to play.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Markblox said:

I think the term 'All Electric' often refers to having no gas.  A bit churlish IMO to say an electrically propelled boat that has a generator for occasional use (Very occasional in the summer and quite often in the winter) isn't really an electric boat.  It's just playing with semantics, which is a game more than a few of you like to play.

 

Or, its called 'being honest' (like actually calling composting toilets what they are - sparating toilets)

[IanD]

6 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

Electric boats (without a diesel engine) might struggle on a river when going against the current, not for thrust of course, but to replace the hugely increased electrical consumption.

 

Electric canal boat owners have mentioned that 3mph through the water is the optimum for efficiency and to make the battery last a reasonable length of time. There are many times on a river when 3mph would see you not going anywhere against the flow.

 

Perhaps that's why the diesel generator is essential.

 

 

If you take the boat I'm having built as an example, it will run at full power (15kW/20hp) for something over 2 hours without running the generator (or allowing for any solar) -- and though 3kW is "normal cruising power" on a still canal, it would be pretty unusual to need full power for that long, even on the Trent or Ribble Link. Running the generator continuously roughly doubles full-power runtime to about 4 hours.

 

A generator is needed if you want to cruise all day for several days in a row -- propulsion use is typically 14kWh/day and solar yield is about 7kWh/day in summer, so about 1hr/day of generator running is needed. Also essential in winter when solar produces much less power (maybe 1.5kWh/day).

 

Until network-wide charging points are rolled out, an "electric" boat will need an onboard generator unless you travel slowly or not for several full days or only in summer.

[Markblox]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

If you take the boat I'm having built as an example, it will run at full power (15kW/20hp) for something over 2 hours without running the generator (or allowing for any solar) -- and though 3kW is "normal cruising power" on a still canal, it would be pretty unusual to need full power for that long, even on the Trent or Ribble Link. Running the generator continuously roughly doubles full-power runtime to about 4 hours.

 

A generator is needed if you want to cruise all day for several days in a row -- propulsion use is typically 14kWh/day and solar yield is about 7kWh/day in summer, so about 1hr/day of generator running is needed. Also essential in winter when solar produces much less power (maybe 1.5kWh/day).

 

Until network-wide charging points are rolled out, an "electric" boat will need an onboard generator unless you travel slowly or not for several full days or only in summer.

I'm sure someone will be along soon to diss it and make out it's the same as a boat with a diesel engine because it has a genny.

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Markblox said:

I'm sure someone will be along soon to diss it and make out it's the same as a boat with a diesel engine because it has a genny.

 

It is, if you think that a noisy diesel running inefficiently for 8 hours a day and a heavily silenced generator running efficiently for at most 1 hour per day -- or not at all in some cases -- are equivalent... 😉