MtB Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 1 hour ago, peterboat said: 10kw of solar think again Why does it need 13kVA of diesel then? <puzzled> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dog Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, MtB said: Why does it need 13kVA of diesel then? <puzzled> To generate hot water for the cauliflower circuit when the 'lectric is busy doing the headline stuff. Of course, now the generator is running so using elsewhere all the waste electricity it chucks out as a bi-product is very environmentally friendly. Win-win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted June 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 22 minutes ago, MtB said: Why does it need 13kVA of diesel then? <puzzled> Because the millionaire owner wants one and can afford one and the running costs associated with it 12 minutes ago, Sea Dog said: To generate hot water for the cauliflower circuit when the 'lectric is busy doing the headline stuff. Of course, now the generator is running so using elsewhere all the waste electricity it chucks out as a bi-product is very environmentally friendly. Win-win! I get heat from solar and so does that one, when the batteries are full it starts heating water automatically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 13 minutes ago, peterboat said: Because the millionaire owner wants one and can afford one and the running costs associated with it Priceless....literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dog Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 13 minutes ago, peterboat said: I get heat from solar and so does that one, when the batteries are full it starts heating water automatically That might well be the case, and my post wasn't serious (hence the wink emoji ), but they didn't go to the expense of fitting 13.5kva of diesel generator for the lovely tune it plays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted June 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 20 minutes ago, Sea Dog said: That might well be the case, and my post wasn't serious (hence the wink emoji ), but they didn't go to the expense of fitting 13.5kva of diesel generator for the lovely tune it plays... You can't hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted June 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 22 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said: Priceless....literally. Look the owner of the boat gets what he wants, I know approx what he paid and it wasn't cheap. His genny is automatic so whilst he has power coming in from the sun and power in the batteries the genny no doubt won't be on. None of mine is automatic which is what I wanted as kiss suits me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bargebuilder Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 38 minutes ago, MtB said: Why does it need 13kVA of diesel then? <puzzled> My wife and I lived aboard an off-grid barge for a number of years and I can say from personal experience that advertised solar pv outputs only deliver under very particular circumstances. Of course you need strong sunshine, but also the panel being perpendicular to the Sun's rays is important. For a boat with horizontal panels, particularly in the winter when the Sun is low in the sky and light intensity is lower, you would be lucky to get 1Kw out of a 10Kw array of PV panels. The other obvious problem is that winter daylight hours are very short, as little as 8 hours, and very often the Sun is nowhere to be seen in any of them. Anyone who buys a wind turbine/generator in the hope that in winter, wind power, 24hrs a day, is the answer, will also be disappointed. Wind turbine manufacturers are ridiculously optimistic about outputs, the figures quoted requiring a lamina air flow, so very high above the ground and 'miles' from trees, buildings etc, batteries that are almost flat and cables with a cross sectional area much greater than suggested in the instructions. We had 3x 300w wind turbines: 12v so an advertised peak of about 25 amps output each. We were 1/4 mile from the coast, trees or buildings and the turbines were atop 6m scaffold poles, so it was usually windy and often very, but we could only rely on 3 or 4 amps from each and in a real blow they peaked at 9 amps each, so about 1/3 of the advertised peak, but even so, useful for us when the solar panels produced next to nothing on dull November days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, peterboat said: Look the owner of the boat gets what he wants, I know approx what he paid and it wasn't cheap. His genny is automatic so whilst he has power coming in from the sun and power in the batteries the genny no doubt won't be on. None of mine is automatic which is what I wanted as kiss suits me I just found it funny as it reinforced the notion that if you have money you can afford to 'go green'. A bit like EV's. As for the boat and on board tech its impressive. I would personally be happy to own a boat with such a set up but would baulk at claiming it was 'all electric'. It isnt. I wouldn't have sited the TV where is (in front of a window) and the L shaped setee looks awkward sited with a radiator where it is. The bed that lowers in the second bedroom would have been simpler if it just folded down lenghtways from the cabin wall rather than lowered electrically. And it would have reduced electrical consumption. But as I said the fit and finish is clearly spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted June 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 6 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said: My wife and I lived aboard an off-grid barge for a number of years and I can say from personal experience that advertised solar pv outputs only deliver under very particular circumstances. Of course you need strong sunshine, but also the panel being perpendicular to the Sun's rays is important. For a boat with horizontal panels, particularly in the winter when the Sun is low in the sky and light intensity is lower, you would be lucky to get 1Kw out of a 10Kw array of PV panels. The other obvious problem is that winter daylight hours are very short, as little as 8 hours, and very often the Sun is nowhere to be seen in any of them. Anyone who buys a wind turbine/generator in the hope that in winter, wind power, 24hrs a day, is the answer, will also be disappointed. Wind turbine manufacturers are ridiculously optimistic about outputs, the figures quoted requiring a lamina air flow, so very high above the ground and 'miles' from trees, buildings etc, batteries that are almost flat and cables with a cross sectional area much greater than suggested in the instructions. We had 3x 300w wind turbines: 12v so an advertised peak of about 25 amps output each. We were 1/4 mile from the coast, trees or buildings and the turbines were atop 6m scaffold poles, so it was usually windy and often very, but we could only rely on 3 or 4 amps from each and in a real blow they peaked at 9 amps each, so about 1/3 of the advertised peak, but even so, useful for us when the solar panels produced next to nothing on dull November days. They have spent serious money on panels, which are improving all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markblox Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 24 minutes ago, peterboat said: Look the owner of the boat gets what he wants, I know approx what he paid and it wasn't cheap. His genny is automatic so whilst he has power coming in from the sun and power in the batteries the genny no doubt won't be on. None of mine is automatic which is what I wanted as kiss suits me With a generator that big, you should be able to cruise for four hours and run the generator for one hour to get back to the original SOC, and that is before any solar gain. Sounds nice, all that silent cruising. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markblox Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said: My wife and I lived aboard an off-grid barge for a number of years and I can say from personal experience that advertised solar pv outputs only deliver under very particular circumstances. Of course you need strong sunshine, but also the panel being perpendicular to the Sun's rays is important. For a boat with horizontal panels, particularly in the winter when the Sun is low in the sky and light intensity is lower, you would be lucky to get 1Kw out of a 10Kw array of PV panels. The other obvious problem is that winter daylight hours are very short, as little as 8 hours, and very often the Sun is nowhere to be seen in any of them. Anyone who buys a wind turbine/generator in the hope that in winter, wind power, 24hrs a day, is the answer, will also be disappointed. Wind turbine manufacturers are ridiculously optimistic about outputs, the figures quoted requiring a lamina air flow, so very high above the ground and 'miles' from trees, buildings etc, batteries that are almost flat and cables with a cross sectional area much greater than suggested in the instructions. We had 3x 300w wind turbines: 12v so an advertised peak of about 25 amps output each. We were 1/4 mile from the coast, trees or buildings and the turbines were atop 6m scaffold poles, so it was usually windy and often very, but we could only rely on 3 or 4 amps from each and in a real blow they peaked at 9 amps each, so about 1/3 of the advertised peak, but even so, useful for us when the solar panels produced next to nothing on dull November days. Totally agree, I have 1.4 KWp of solar and the difference between June and December is a factor of 5. I heat water from excess solar for 4 of 5 months of the year but don't generate enough in the winter despite having the panels tilt at 45 degrees. I am getting an external regulator for the 175A alternator which should put a steady 130A into my 600Ah lithium battery so should only have to run the engine for an hour a day in the dead of winter for a whole days electrical use. Same concept with a large genny in an electric boat. Makes the diesel a LOT more efficient. I keep hearing the dummies out there saying "what's the point of electric if you got to run the penny to replace it" but if you only only have to run the genny for an hour after a half day silent cruise then that is brilliant. What isn't brilliant though is the price. Way too much but as they become more popular hopefully the price will reduce. Edited June 11, 2022 by Markblox 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bargebuilder Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 1 hour ago, peterboat said: They have spent serious money on panels, which are improving all the time Indeed they are, but the less ugly stick-on versions are very much lagging behind in the efficiency stakes. The rigid panel versions may, before too long, reach the golden 50% efficiency figure, but they don't look particularly tidy on a boat's roof, and the real life efficiency would be much lower unless they were able to track the Sun's position in the sky, which is practically impossible on a narrowboat. Even in the summer, the Sun is only high in the sky and anywhere near the ideal angle for a horizontal panel during the middle segment of the day. In the Winter, any solar radiation that does penetrate the cloud comes in at such a low angle that much of its potential is lost entirely. Improvements in efficiency there may be, but if very little solar radiation is hitting a panel then very little extra electricity will be generated. Just for the sake of interest, below is a direct lift from exeoenergy.co.uk. The figures are for solar radiation hitting the ground, but a stick-on panel may not exceed 15% in efficiency, so mid-day on a sunny midsummers day you might get 150w/m², but on a cloudy midwinter day you will only get a 15w output and only then for a very few hours. sunny, clear sky summer: 600 - 1000 W/m² winter: 300 - 500 W/m² sunny, skattered clouds or partly cloudy summer: 300 - 600 W/m² winter: 150 - 300 W/m² cloudy, fog summer: 100 - 300 W/m² winter: 50 - 150 W/m² Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, peterboat said: His genny is automatic so whilst he has power coming in from the sun and power in the batteries the genny no doubt won't be on. That is exactly the problem - the Sun don't shine at night ! We were moored up on the vistor moorings at Gunthorpe (On the Trent), lovely evening sat on the stern when an engine started up - nothing moving so mooched up the pontoon - there was a boat making a noise, spoke to the owner to be told it was an automatic generator that as soon as the battery drops to 90% SoC the generator cut in - "but don't worry, its silent". Suggested that it may nor actually be silent as I'd heard it at the other end of the moorings. During the night I was awoken two more times by the 'silent generator' cutting in. It may be a silent generator if you are inside, but it is surprising how far the sound / vibration travels thru the water on a quiet night. The 8 to 8 rules are there for a reason !! Edited June 11, 2022 by Alan de Enfield 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 Anyone with an automatic start generator should be required to have it on an 8 to 8 timer, so it can't start during night hours. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted June 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said: Indeed they are, but the less ugly stick-on versions are very much lagging behind in the efficiency stakes. The rigid panel versions may, before too long, reach the golden 50% efficiency figure, but they don't look particularly tidy on a boat's roof, and the real life efficiency would be much lower unless they were able to track the Sun's position in the sky, which is practically impossible on a narrowboat. Even in the summer, the Sun is only high in the sky and anywhere near the ideal angle for a horizontal panel during the middle segment of the day. In the Winter, any solar radiation that does penetrate the cloud comes in at such a low angle that much of its potential is lost entirely. Improvements in efficiency there may be, but if very little solar radiation is hitting a panel then very little extra electricity will be generated. Just for the sake of interest, below is a direct lift from exeoenergy.co.uk. The figures are for solar radiation hitting the ground, but a stick-on panel may not exceed 15% in efficiency, so mid-day on a sunny midsummers day you might get 150w/m², but on a cloudy midwinter day you will only get a 15w output and only then for a very few hours. sunny, clear sky summer: 600 - 1000 W/m² winter: 300 - 500 W/m² sunny, skattered clouds or partly cloudy summer: 300 - 600 W/m² winter: 150 - 300 W/m² cloudy, fog summer: 100 - 300 W/m² winter: 50 - 150 W/m² 1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said: That is exactly the problem - the Sun don't shine at night ! We were moored up on the vistor moorings at Gunthorpe (On the Trent), lovely evening sat on the stern when an engine started up - nothing moving so mooched up the pontoon - there was a boat making a noise, spoke to the owner to be told it was an automatic generator that as soon as the battery drops to 90% SoC the generator cut in - "but don't worry, its silent". Suggested that it may nor actually be silent as I'd heard it at the other end of the moorings. During the night I was awoken two more times by the 'silent generator' cutting in. It may be a silent generator if you are inside, but it is surprising how far the sound / vibration travels thru the water on a quiet night. The 8 to 8 rules are there for a reason !! They have a very large LifePo4 battery bank, I think running a genny in the night isn't in their remit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 If the solar is so good, take the genny out. Anyone see any problems with that? Peter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted June 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, MtB said: If the solar is so good, take the genny out. Anyone see any problems with that? Peter? The man wants a genny, he spends more money on a boat than most spend on a large house. He isn't short of a bob or two so he has a genny, he lik8me might not need the genny but it's got nowt to do with me or thee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 Any idea where they plan to use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, peterboat said: The man wants a genny, he spends more money on a boat than most spend on a large house. He isn't short of a bob or two so he has a genny, he lik8me might not need the genny but it's got nowt to do with me or thee. So how does that fit in with "All electric boat"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted June 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 Thames it's more than likely there already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 70% diesel boat would fit the advertising regulations better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 12 hours ago, peterboat said: it's going on the Thames it's well suited Post No ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 Just now, peterboat said: Thames it's more than likely there already Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 11, 2022 Report Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) duplicate Edited June 11, 2022 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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