Morso fire hot

[Timx]

Have recently started using Morso Fire, boat is ten years old, I have had it for four years.

I have only been burning wood on it so far, but have noticed the side walls (wood, opposite fire) are getting so hot, hot to touch. In the past I have only ever used kindling and then coal, but don't remember wood above fire getting so hot.

i am going to replace fire bricks before I start a "long fire "with coal , but current ones seem fine, and I have swept chimney, and made sure cowl  plate is sitting correctly on top of fire brick.

Am I just experiencing wood for burning I'e so hot? Even so wood surround shouldn't get so hot.? 

Any suggestions why this should be ?

Thanks.

[mrsmelly]

They do get very hot. It does look very close to the bulkheads though?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Timx said:

Any suggestions why this should be ?

Do you have a 1" thick 'fireboard' behind the tiles, and a 1/2" air-gap between the fireboard and the wooden wall/panels ?

 

 

Heat PROTECTION PANELS
Stoves and uninsulated flue pipes can easily get hot enough to set fire to paint, wood or other combustibles a distance away.

A single fireproof panel fastened straight to a wall is no use – heat can pass straight through it.
One way of making a good protection panel is to have: a 10mm air gap (supported on offcuts), then 25mm thick calcium silicate board (which
can be tiled) then at least a 45mm gap to the stove body, all extending at least 200mm abovethe stove. (This construction can be used as
the hearth underneath a stove with legs, if topped by a 15mm cement-board panel.)

 

 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Wood too close to the stove can dry out from the heat, turning it in to almost a charcoal like substance, pyrolosis, which can ignite very easily. Tiles directly over wood can then hide the wood, so that you don't see the charring. Have a read of the Lindy Lou marine accident investigation report. Sobering stuff.

 

Jenny

[Timx]

Thanks for replies, I realise I have to do something, it wasn't getting this hot last year. It's ten years old and never noticed this before.

[rusty69]

Is it possible the fire is burning hot due to excessive air intake, either from a failed bottom door rope seal, or worn hole where the riddling grate handle enters?

 

When shut right down , does the fire rapidly go out? When burning wood on our squirrel, we would only use the top air vent fwiw.

[blackrose]

22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think those dimensions can be adjusted depending on how far the stove is located from any combustibles. My stove is 160mm from the bulkhead behind and consequently I only have 10mm thick fireproof masterboard on the bulkhead and no airgap behind the masterboard. It's been checked and it's fine.

 

I've never really understood how you build an airgap because if there are any battens used to create that airgap, then there's no airgap?

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I've never really understood how you build an airgap because if there are any battens used to create that airgap, then there's no airgap?

You could always run the battens vertically instead of horizontally, but, the normal method is :-

 

You don't use full length battens you just use 'cubes' (maybe 1" x 1" x 1/2") screw thru the silica board and into the 'cube' (thru the 1/2") and you have 1/2" stand off but only 'block' 1" of airflow,

 

This gives a 'free' route for the hot air to rise thru.

 

As per picture :

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, blackrose said:

  My stove is 160mm from the bulkhead behind and consequently I only have 10mm thick fireproof masterboard on the bulkhead and no airgap behind the masterboard. It's been checked and it's fine.

 

 

 

 

How did you measure the temperature behind the masterboard ?

[blackrose]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You could always run the battens vertically instead of horizontally, but, the normal method is :-

 

You don't use full length battens you just use 'cubes' (maybe 1" x 1" x 1/2") screw thru the silica board and into the 'cube' (thru the 1/2") and you have 1/2" stand off but only 'block' 1" of airflow,

 

This gives a 'free' route for the hot air to rise thru.

 

As per picture :

 

 

I wasn't really considering airflow. I thought the airgap was to prevent conductive heat transfer to the combustible bulkhead behind. In that sense if you use wooden blocks all you've done is place a combustible object directly against the fire retardant material and in effect canceled out the air gap. 

 

If you want airflow through the 10mm airgap then presumably you leave gaps at the top and bottom of your panel? I'm sure that would soon get blocked with dust and other crap.

Edited October 28, 2019 by blackrose

[blackrose]

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

How did you measure the temperature behind the masterboard ?

 

I have a couple of holes where the backboiler pipes come through the bulkhead. The holes are lined with heat resistant silicone to protect the wood. I've checked the temperatures there and also taken the silicone off and checked for any charring. It's far enough from the stove that it's not an issue. It was installed 15 years ago. 

 

When I go on some narrowboats and see the charring on the wood around their hearths and ceilings where the flue passes through it really makes me worry.

Edited October 28, 2019 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I have a couple of holes where the backboiler pipes come through the bulkhead. The holes are lined with heat resistant silicone to protect the wood. I've checked the temperatures there and also taken the silicone off and checked for any charring. It's far enough from the stove that it's not an issue. It was installed 15 years ago. 

 

When I go on some narrowboats and see the charring on the wood around their hearths and ceilings where the flue passes through it really makes me worry.

Yes, I had a friend come back to a boat full of smoke like that, smoldering behind the ceramic tiles, he was lucky. 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I wasn't really considering airflow. I thought the airgap was to prevent conductive heat transfer to the combustible bulkhead behind. In that sense if you use wooden blocks all you've done is place a combustible object directly against the fire retardant material and in effect canceled out the air gap. 

 

If you want airflow through the 10mm airgap then presumably you leave gaps at the top and bottom of your panel? I'm sure that would soon get blocked with dust and other crap.

When we did ours we actually used a 'cube' of the silica so the silica board was mounted on silica 'spacers'.

 

It acts as a non-conductive barrier but also allows any 'heated air' to rise.

 

10mm is a fair old space to get filled with 'fluff & dust'

 

As we know, there is no requirement (on old boats) to install to this specification but it is still an 'advisory' which insurers may well pick up on in an effort to avoid paying out.

It isn't really much harder to 'do it properly' than not to do it 'properly' so I cannot see any reason not to.

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Yes, I had a friend come back to a boat full of smoke like that, smoldering behind the ceramic tiles, he was lucky. 

 

I used to hear stories about boats catching fire because someone had just tiled straight over wooden bulkheads, but I don't hear it so much anymore so I guess people are learning.

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I used to hear stories about boats catching fire because someone had just tiled straight over wooden bulkheads, but I don't hear it so much anymore so I guess people are learning.

Some people think because a tile wont burn its safe they don't consider the heat conducting to the surface behind it

[Bee]

If the stove sides / back etc are getting really hot check the firebricks are still OK, might be very thin after 10 yrs.

[blackrose]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When we did ours we actually used a 'cube' of the silica so the silica board was mounted on silica 'spacers'.

 

It acts as a non-conductive barrier but also allows any 'heated air' to rise.

 

10mm is a fair old space to get filled with 'fluff & dust'

 

As we know, there is no requirement (on old boats) to install to this specification but it is still an 'advisory' which insurers may well pick up on in an effort to avoid paying out.

It isn't really much harder to 'do it properly' than not to do it 'properly' so I cannot see any reason not to.

Ok, silica blocks, fair enough. It does sound like a bit of a faff though. I'd rather just leave a bigger gap behind the stove.

[Timx]

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Is it possible the fire is burning hot due to excessive air intake, either from a failed bottom door rope seal, or worn hole where the riddling grate handle enters?

 

When shut right down , does the fire rapidly go out? When burning wood on our squirrel, we would only use the top air vent fwiw.

Thanks, I have never really, used logs before only coal, I can't twist the the door vent knob, as its seized up. I have just replaced the glass in the door though, so that might be an issue.when it's been in the depths of winter though I have burned coal with the door open and never noticed the wood getting hot, but not sure I was always checking.

1 hour ago, Bee said:

If the stove sides / back etc are getting really hot check the firebricks are still OK, might be very thin after 10 yrs.

Thanks, I am going to replace them.

[mrsmelly]

9 hours ago, Timx said:

Thanks, I have never really, used logs before only coal, I can't twist the the door vent knob, as its seized up. I have just replaced the glass in the door though, so that might be an issue.when it's been in the depths of winter though I have burned coal with the door open and never noticed the wood getting hot, but not sure I was always checking.

Thanks, I am going to replace them.

I never, EVER use the stove with the door open. I know peeps will now come back saying they do and never have a problem but to me these stoves are designed to be used closed and its just inviting possible trouble from co and or fire.

[LadyG]

13 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

How did you measure the temperature behind the masterboard ?

l am not happy with my installation, one night I could smell the paint on the deckhead, since then I have used less fuel, so that it does not get too hot. I am not sure if putting a collar of exhaust wrap at the deckhead would help.

I am considering installing a curved shield of stainless steel behind the stove which is set at an angle, similar to the one in the accident..The tiled cabin side below the gunnel gets quite warm, not alarming so, the other side is the pullman diner, I considered filling the backrest with fireproof foam [fire needs heat oxygen and a fuel].

I cant see any other practical solution, [without a total re-installation] though I may  use calcium silicate on top of the tiles with an air gap., It would then be very close to the corners of the stove,

PS I hit my airwash knob with hammer  and chisel to unseize it.

Edited October 29, 2019 by LadyG
deckhead wouldhep

[ditchcrawler]

A sheet of polished metal set on spacers in front of the tiles will make a big difference, reflecting the radiant heat and no path for heat transfer. Just stand one of your silver trays down there and see how much difference it makes with just a 5mm gap even

 

[Keeping Up]

When our boat was built nearly 30 years ago the Little Wenlock stove was set rather close to the tiles, which were then glued directly to the plywood. Worried that this could be somewhat perilous, even though there were no signs of overheating, last summer we asked a boatyard to do whatever they could to make it safer; after some deliberation they told me that they wouldn't do any work that didn't meet the full RCD standards and that it couldn't be done without a complete re-design of the boat costing several thousand pounds (and billed me £200 for this assessment). That boatyard has since closed down!

 

I then took it to Braunston marina, who for a very reasonable fee did the following work:

 

1. They moved the stove slightly and rotated it to face more squarely, so that the corners were significantly further from the walls

2. They removed the tiles and inserted a thick fireproof board (25mm I think) which, they claimed, was a newly-released product that didn't need an airgap because of its internal construction. Looking at an offcut, it seemed to be some sort of honeycomb construction, or like a bar of Aero chocolate. They said that it hadn't yet been approved in the standards for an RCD - that would take a couple of years at least, they said - and therefore was virtually unknown in the boating world, but in the meantime it was an excellent solution for use on an existing boat.

3. They re-tiled the whole area again and put the stove back in place (properly secured)

 

I am very pleased with the result.

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

 Looking at an offcut, it seemed to be some sort of honeycomb construction, or like a bar of Aero chocolate.

 

I hope its more effective than a chocolate fireguard!

[The Dreamer]

18 hours ago, blackrose said:

I've never really understood how you build an airgap because if there are any battens used to create that airgap, then there's no airgap?

 

Rather than build a batten work, I drilled some 12mm ply with a 30mm panel cutter and used these like washers to seat the silicate board on.  I then overplayed the whole lot, not just the hearth, with cement board to give it strength and porcelain tiles.  The whole lot is solid as a rock...

[bizzard]

7 hours ago, LadyG said:

l am not happy with my installation, one night I could smell the paint on the deckhead, since then I have used less fuel, so that it does not get too hot. I am not sure if putting a collar of exhaust wrap at the deckhead would help.

I am considering installing a curved shield of stainless steel behind the stove which is set at an angle, similar to the one in the accident..The tiled cabin side below the gunnel gets quite warm, not alarming so, the other side is the pullman diner, I considered filling the backrest with fireproof foam [fire needs heat oxygen and a fuel].

I cant see any other practical solution, [without a total re-installation] though I may  use calcium silicate on top of the tiles with an air gap., It would then be very close to the corners of the stove,

PS I hit my airwash knob with hammer  and chisel to unseize it.

If you can put a house brick or two, one on top of the other at the back of the stove it will keep the back cooler and reduce heat a bit and save coal, the flue pipe will also be a bit cooler. Saw the back corners off the top plate if they're too close. If you need to cut a house brick to shorten it just use ideally a bolster and tap it lightly all around making a shallow groove, When the grooves meet place bolster on one side in a groove  and give it a shap blow with the hammer and it should break clean and square. A nice embelisher trim for at the ceiling hole where the flue pipe passes through can be made from a round alumunium pie dish, largish ones like Quiesh Lorrain comes in from supermarkets. Firstly eat the pie. Cut the bottom out leaving the side walls and rim with scissors then cut through one side to anable it to pass around the flue pipe, slip it up to the ceiling, trim to fit and stick it up with silicone with the rim overlapping around the aperture,  they look lovely.

Edited October 29, 2019 by bizzard