Chappo Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 Well I have been dealing with some wiring issues on me boat. Tidying up the rats nest of cables and putting in some new gauges and switches etc. My problem...all the wiring is either red or black or both spliced together. No colour coordination to assist in tracing stuff around..its been a right mare..Is this common practice or am I just blessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stegra Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 I guess it's quite common. Cable is cheaper in 100m rolls so it's tempting to use the same colours for various runs. Some might argue that 12v circuits should all be in a standard red and black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappo Posted October 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 Why is that? The problems aren't insurmountable. But knowing which cable went to my headlight, whilst i am in the engine bay several yards away would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 Out of curiosity do any of the cables have a knot in them ? I've seen it done with all green/yellow - doubtless what was available, - green/yellow was positive and green/yellow with a knot in it was NOT positive ! springy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stegra Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, Chappo said: Why is that? I take it that you mean, why would anyone argue for standard red and black? Well nobody seems to be arguing against standardised colours in mains electrical supplies which can be at least as difficult to trace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappo Posted October 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 Not found any Knots / labels or anything to indicate whats what..long winter nights following wires around the boat ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 Most of the wiring on Belfast follows a very simple colour code: brown for electricity! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappo Posted October 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 I was hoping for something similair to a vehicle loom..even though me boat is 29 yrs old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, Chappo said: I was hoping for something similair to a vehicle loom..even though me boat is 29 yrs old How many narrow boats identical to yours do you think the builder of yours churned out to make it worth having looms made up? 100,000 perhaps? 500,000? What actually happens is most builders build 5 or 6 a year, every one different and heavily customised for each client. Often everything is done by a team of four or five blokes turning their hand to all the trades. In your case I’d guess none was an electrician!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 If the wiring is directly associated with things like energising starter motor, alternator warning light, heater plugs etc, (all the stuff hanging off the engine), then some kind of colour coding is not unusual, (but by no means universal). If you are talking about distributing 12 volts through the actual boat to run lights, pumps, etc, then I would say all red & black is very normal, (but again there will be exceptions, as David Mack has identified). On a former boat where all the 12 volt wiring was black sheathed cable running through the same void along the length of the boat we wanted to break into a particular cable, but didn't know which one it was. If we arranged a strong current flowing in just the one we wanted to find, we discovered that the correct cable would cause deflection of a compass held tight against it, whereas the compass didn't move for the cables not carrying current. Not guaranteed, but we got the right one out of about half a dozen at the very first attempt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoat Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 I was lucky - having drawn a blank from local electrical and motor supplier sources, I found a local tool supplier who had acquired a load of surplus cable for HM dockard Portsmouth. I have a quantity of colours alleged to be fireproof..... My cabling is still a rat's nest. I find the best compromise is to wrap the cable groupd with coloured tape and keep a record of whta that coding means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappo Posted October 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 It seems the consensus is it not unusal. Oh well..nevermind. At least it is all easily accessible behind removable panels. And its really only the headlight i cant find, so I will just put in a new cable. Love the idea of using a compass...genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 hour ago, alan_fincher said: If we arranged a strong current flowing in just the one we wanted to find, we discovered that the correct cable would cause deflection of a compass held tight against it, whereas the compass didn't move for the cables not carrying current. Not guaranteed, but we got the right one out of about half a dozen at the very first attempt. A dc clamp meter around the individual cables should achieve the same result. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWM Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Chappo said: Well I have been dealing with some wiring issues on me boat. Tidying up the rats nest of cables and putting in some new gauges and switches etc. My problem...all the wiring is either red or black or both spliced together. No colour coordination to assist in tracing stuff around..its been a right mare..Is this common practice or am I just blessed. I'd count myself lucky if all the wiring was the correct black and red, our last boat was a rainbow mixture of bits with no continuity - not uncommon for boats. You could always pick up some labels, or use a fold of masking tape to mark those you have organised. Don't use pencil on the masking tape though...it vanishes surprisingly quickly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 If you ever bother to trace all of the cables, you can add cable identification collets, so that each end of every cable has a unique identification code. https://www.millsltd.com/consumables/cable-markers/collet-pairs.html?limit=all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 For domestic circuits red & black is probably the most accepted practice to distinguish it from any brown & blue mains wiring but as Cuthound says the cables should be marked with tags or ferules. I don't know what the ISOs say about this but the MEMA code of practice said (around 2000) that wiring should comply with local practice which seems to be red & black in the UK. However I can see no reason an individual should not use a common automotive colour code system like blue for headlamp and brow or green with a trace colour for the horn but then what colour will you use for the pumps and the lighting circuits. As said above complete drums of cable are cheaper than random lengths so I think stick with labelled red & black. If you really want to differentiate between red supply to switch and red switch to appliance then use (say) a red with black trace. Most factory supplied engine harnesses I have seen usually conform to one of the automotive standards for colours but maybe the US one where brown is negative would not be the ideal one to use. This is a fair guide to UK automotive wiring colours http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/Lucaswirecode.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boater Sam Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 In my dim and distant past I seem to remember that for low voltage circuits yellow and black were recommended for + and - respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Schweizer Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 The wiring on our old boat, built in 1982, complied with what I believe was standard UK automotive practice at the time. ie brown for all negatives and various different colours for positive supplies. It was very neatly conduited in spiral wrap and was easy to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stegra Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 28 minutes ago, cuthound said: If you ever bother to trace all of the cables, you can add cable identification collets, so that each end of every cable has a unique identification code. https://www.millsltd.com/consumables/cable-markers/collet-pairs.html?limit=all I've also heard of people printing or writing labels and sealing them onto the cable ends with clear heat shrink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: I don't know what the ISOs say about this but the MEMA code of practice said (around 2000) that wiring should comply with local practice which seems to be red & black in the UK The RCD specifies ISO 10133 for : Small craft — Electrical systems — Extra-low-voltage d.c. installations Extracts from Section 7 7 Conductors 7.1 Electrical distribution shall use insulated stranded-copper conductors. See Table A.1. Conductor insulation shall be of fire-retardant material, e.g. not supporting combustion in the absence of flame. .. ... …. …... ……... ...……... 7.8.1 All equipotential bonding conductors shall be identified by green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation, or may be uninsulated. Conductors with green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation shall not be used for currentcarrying conductors. NOTE The protective conductor of the a.c. electrical system (see ISO 13297) also uses green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation and may be connected to the d.c. negative terminal of the craft engine.7.8.2 Means of identification other than colour for d.c. positive conductors is permitted if properly identified on the wiring diagram of the electrical system(s) of the craft.7.8.3 All d.c. negative conductors shall be identified by black or yellow insulation. If the craft is equipped with an a.c. electrical system (see ISO 13297) which may use black insulation for live conductors, yellow insulation shall be used for d.c. negative conductors of the d.c. system. Black or yellow insulation shall not be used for d.c. positive conductors. NOTE 1 In conformance with IEC 60446, conductor insulation colours of the a.c. system are live conductors: black or brown; neutral conductors: white or light blue; protective conductors: green or green with a yellow stripe. NOTE 2 A colour stripe may be added to the conductor insulation for identification in the system. Craft with a.c and d.c systems should avoid the use of a brown, white or light blue insulation colour in the d.c. system unless clearly separated from the a.c. conductors and identified (see 7.7). 7.8.4 Insulation-temperature ratings of conductors in engine spaces shall be 70 °C minimum. The conductors shall be rated oil resistant, or shall be protected by an insulating conduit or sleeving, and shall be derated in allowable current-carrying capacity in accordance with clause A.1. 7.8.5 For additional conductor specifications, see ISO 6722-3 and ISO 6722-4. 7.8.6 Current-carrying conductors of the d.c. system shall be routed above anticipated levels of bilge water and in other areas where water may accumulate, or at least 25 mm above the level at which the automatic bilge-pump switch activates. If conductors must be routed in the bilge area, the wiring and connections shall be in an IP 67 enclosure, in accordance with IEC 60529, as a minimum, and there shall be no connection below the foreseeable water level. 7.8.7 Conductors shall be routed away from exhaust pipes and other heat sources which can damage the insulation. The minimum clearance of the conductors is 50 mm from water-cooled exhaust components and 250 mm from dry exhaust components, unless an equivalent thermal barrier is provided. It goes onto to comment on cable termination ...….. 10 Wiring connections and terminals 10.1 Conductor connections shall be in locations protected from the weather or in IP 55 enclosures, in accordance with IEC 60529 as a minimum. Connections above deck exposed to intermittent immersion shall be in IP 67 enclosures, in accordance with IEC 60529 as a minimum. 10.2 Metals used for terminal studs, nuts and washers shall be corrosion resistant and galvanically compatible with the conductor and terminal. Aluminium and unplated steel shall not be used for studs, nuts or washers in electrical circuits.10.3 All conductors shall have suitable terminals installed, i.e. no bare wires attached to stud or screw connections. Edited October 13, 2019 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: The RCD specifies ISO 10133 for : Small craft — Electrical systems — Extra-low-voltage d.c. installations 10.3 All conductors shall have suitable terminals installed, i.e. no bare wires attached to stud or screw connections. I wonder what exactly they mean by screw, would that be a screw in a chock block type connection where the thread clamps down on a conductor or would it be a wire round the head of a screw like this type of screw connection which shows both stud and screw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 37 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said: I wonder what exactly they mean by screw, would that be a screw in a chock block type connection where the thread clamps down on a conductor or would it be a wire round the head of a screw like this type of screw connection which shows both stud and screw Either. A bootlace ferrule under a screw such as chockblock or a ring terminal for a busbar such as in your picture. Simply put, ALL cables must be terminated with a suitable (for the application) terminal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappo Posted October 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 9 hours ago, cuthound said: If you ever bother to trace all of the cables, you can add cable identification collets, so that each end of every cable has a unique identification code. https://www.millsltd.com/consumables/cable-markers/collet-pairs.html?limit=all Thank you..i just might get there eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 19 hours ago, WotEver said: Either. A bootlace ferrule under a screw such as chockblock or a ring terminal for a busbar such as in your picture. Simply put, ALL cables must be terminated with a suitable (for the application) terminal. What's the position with those horrible Wago connectors that seem to be gaining currency? I believe they are designed to be used with bare wires. Are bootlace ferrules mandatory with them under RCD? Or do they even actually fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said: What's the position with those horrible Wago connectors that seem to be gaining currency? I believe they are designed to be used with bare wires. Are bootlace ferrules mandatory with them under RCD? Or do they even actually fit? I doubt if they’re approved for use by the RCD. Why do you say ‘horrible’ though? For their intended purpose I think they’re great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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